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Petri added a source about "Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes" (full name "Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes in 1941-1945 and the Attempts to Revise the Verdict of the Nuremberg Tribunal in Estonia"). It is in the web page of Embassy of the Russian Federation in Denmark, author anonymous. I am not sure it is a valid wikisource, even cursory glance reveals several mistakes, both factual and language errors. However, because of the recent events, I will not remove it as a reference, but request that an independent editor with knowledge about 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) would review the source and determine its suitability. DLX 13:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Petri, at least three other editors agree that it is not reliable source. Please stop your childish edit warring - or at least, give a reason why an obviously flawed and unreliable source must be included to Wikipedia. DLX 15:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
This article is messy. needs reworking. Will do ASAP. Meanwhile I just tag it accordingly.--Termer 19:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Made a first pass on it but it's still a mess...shall continue ASAP, feel free to help meanwhile --Termer 08:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello, here is what I'd do, call the article Estonian National Army Units in 1941-1944 or in WWII and work out a section for each, including the Finnish Infantry Regiment 200, the 22nd Territorial Rifle Corps and The 8th Estonian Rifle Corpsin the Red Army. Simply because it's going to be easier to put everythin in context. And then once we have enough sourced material for each unit, it would make sense to spread out new articles about each. Please let me know if there are any objections to the suggestion. The first thing to do would be sorting it out according to the chronology providing historical context as it goes...Thanks!--Termer 08:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW: "Selection of insignias issued to the Estonian Waffen Grenadier conscripts" is fake. And it looks like a fake too even on the photograph, therefore the image should be removed and deleted from Commons I'd suggest. Sources like "Estonian Vikings" by Richard Landwehr cite clearly that in general officially any national insignia was not issued. Some of the Estonians though did it on their own, added Estonian national insignia to the uniforms, mostly in 1944 when the Germans didn't care as much any more. --Termer 08:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi Martintg
OK, thanks for clarifying... if this article is supposed to be about the 20th division then it should be written about it. Currently there is "Narwa Regiment" mixed in. The fact is, when Battalion Narwa returned to Estonia in March 1944 it was reformed, it ceased to exist becouse of the general conscription call-up and a newly formed Waffen-Füsilier-Battalion der SS was the one that joined the 20th division. So currently everything is mixed together and it's not clear at all that the article is about the 20th division.
regarding the image you provided for ref, it further illustrates the fact that Estonian national insignia (I.m talking about insignia of the Republic of Estonia) was not used and/or officially provided for those troops. Since "real enough" isn't good enough for an encyclopedia, I'm going to remove the image from this article. Please have it deleted from commons whoever has uploaded it...thanks!--Termer 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
PS. regarding rewrapping this article, then it's going to be structured around the 20th division, and all the rest like Narwa etc are going to need their own articles and then later on, one general story about, something like Estonian National Army Units in WWII is going to be made. How about that as a plan?--Termer 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Good point Martintg National Army can sound like it was the army of the state. Estonian Military Units should be much more clear what it's all about. Regarding the units that were merged into the 20th, I've laid it out, further work is needed of course. the tri-colour insignia, in case anybody can dig out an authentic photo from the era that would be another story than using photos of home made fake labels on WP.--Termer 06:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, ruffed out the header according to the title. Further work is needed of course to make the whole article about the 20th division . Termer 00:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) was formed in Spring 1944 from various Estonian units and new conscripts that were mobilized after the general conscription call up.
Date | Formation | Formed from |
---|---|---|
March 31 1944 | 20th Waffen-Artillery Regiment 4th
Battalion |
Men from the SS Beneschau
artillery school |
April 4 1944 | 20th Waffen-Artillery Regiment staff and
2nd and 3rd Battalion |
53rd SS-Artillery Battalion, and conscripts. |
April | Regiment "Tallinn" | the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | 1st Border Defence Regiment | the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | 2nd Border Defence Regiment | the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | 3rd Border Defence Regiment | the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | 4th Border Defence Regiment | the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | 5th Border Defence Regiment | the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | 6th Border Defence Regiment | the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | Reserve regiment of the Border
Defence Regiments |
the Spring 1944 conscripts |
April | 20th Waffen-Artillery Regiment I Battalion | 53rd SS-Artillery Battalion |
April 13 1944 | 20th Waffen-Signals Battalion | 20th SS-Signals Company and conscripts. |
April 14 1944 | 45th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 2nd
Battalion brought to full strength |
Border Defence Regiment “Reval”
1st Battalion |
April 18 1944 –
beginning of May 1944 |
46th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 3rd
Battalion |
Wehrmacht 660th Eastern Battalion and conscripts. |
April 18 1944 | 20th Waffen-Volunteer Division Fusilier
Battalion (single infantry battalion) |
Former SS-Panzer Division “Wiking”
Battalion "Narwa" and conscripts. |
April 24 1944 | 47th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 1st
Battalion |
Former Wehrmacht’s 659th Eastern
Battalion and conscripts. |
April 24 1944 | 47th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 2nd
Battalion |
Former Wehrmacht’s 658th Eastern
Battalion and conscripts. |
May 3 1944 – July 10 1944 | 20th Waffen-Anti-tank Battalion | 14th Company (Anti-tank) as the 1st
company of the battalion of the 45th SS-Regiment and conscripts. |
April 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Transport Company | |
April 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 1st Re-supply
Transport Company |
|
May 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division rear headquarters | |
April 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Maintenance Company | |
May 3 1944 | The new 14th (Anti-tank) Company
of 45th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment |
The Anti-tank Platoon of the Division
and conscripts. |
May 4 1944 | 20th Waffen-Light Artillery Re-supply
Convoy |
Previously under the command of 20th
SS Anti-aircraft Battalion |
May 8 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 1st Motorised
Medical Company |
20th SS-Medical Company and conscripts. |
May 8 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 2nd Medical
Company |
20th SS-Medical Company 1st Platoon
and conscripts. |
May 15 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 2nd Re-supply
Transport Company |
Formed from men from the field reserve
battalion |
May 17 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division Rear Company | Formed of 46th SS-Grenadier Regiment
3rd Battalion troops |
June 1 1944–13 July 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division Engineer Battalion | 20th SS-Division 3rd Engineer Company
and conscripts. |
August 1944 | 45th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 3.
Battalion |
Finnish Infantry Regiment 200 |
Why exactly were those facts removed from the article again?--Termer (talk) 21:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry Jim Sweeney, perhaps it's just me but I'm really getting confused, what were the reasons you think the historical context, the comment by Andrew Mollo had to be removed? And once the division was reformed in March, why was it again that such facts shouldn't be part of the article? The existence of the division was nominal only at first. Also, on January 23 1944 the 3rd Estonian Brigade was renamed into 20the Estonian SS Freiwillige Devision, and it became the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS only on May 26. 1944. .
References
Why is July 6 marked as the anniversary of the division? I haven't heard anything happened on July 6. DJ Sturm (talk) 23:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
No, days that veterans celebrate are January 24 (day of forming the division), February 24 (Anniversary of the Estonian Republic) and in the last week of July there is always reunion on the Blue Hills to remember the Battle of Tannenberg Line. Maybe July 6 is some anniversary of Latvian or Lithuanian Waffen-SS veterans. DJ Sturm (talk) 15:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
recently axishistory.com has been used to overhaul this article and most of the published books used for ref previously have been removed for some reason. I don't think that axishistory.com is a WP:RS exactly, especially compared to the books that were used previously. The main thing is the claim that the Division was formed "around a cadre of the 3 Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade". The connection was only nominal since the Estonian division was formed out of general conscription call in Estonia unlike the Brigade. Also, the brigade was scattered all over the Eastern front and none of the soldiers were fighting in the territory of Estonia. Unlike after the formation of the division when all those units in the brigade were returned to Estonia and reformed. In any case it's misleading to say that the Division was formed "around a cadre of the 3 Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade". After all there where what, about 5000 men in the brigade but about up to 70.000 in the division after the conscription call.--Termer (talk) 03:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
By Gordon Williamson and Stephen Andrew --Jim Sweeney (talk) 22:48, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
That's the point, the Division was built upon the general conscription call in Estonia not "around a cadre of the 3 Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade" that was scattered around all over the Eastern front at the time. About 40.000 were conscripted, perhaps not all the guys were technically included into the division but still. The point remains that Division was formed "around a cadre of the 3 Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade" is a very strange statement. There are a number of books published on the subject that are much more reliable than the web sites you have used. So at one point I think the sources need to be replaced.--Termer (talk) 23:22, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
OK here are the numbers and the story of the division by: Misiunas, Romuald (1993). The Baltic States, Years of Dependence, 1940-1990. University of California Press. p. 60. ISBN 0520082281. {{cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (help)
In Estonia, the pre-war Prime minister Uluots switched his stand on mobilization in Febrary 1944 when the Soviet Army reached the Estonian border. At the time the Estonian units under German control had about 14,000 men. Counting on a German debacle, Uluots considered it imperative to have large numbers of Estonians armed, through any means...Uluts even managed to tell it to the nation through the german-controlled radio: Estonian troops on Estonian soli have " a significance much wider than what I could and would be able to disclose here". The nation undrestood and responded. 38,000 registered ..Six border-defense regiments were formed, headed by Estonian officers, and the SS Division received reinforcements, bringing the total of Estonian units up to 50,000 or 60,00 men. During the whole period at least 70,000 Estonian joined the German army, more than 10,000 may have died in action...about 10,000 reached the West after the war ended.
PS. back to "around a cadre of the 3 Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade", I admit there are some contradictions there between the sources. The fact is the brigade was renamed into division but according to the German Stammtafeln the first units joining the Division were the men from the artillery school + the Border Guard Regiments, not from the former Brigade. At the same time some sources do not include the Border Guard Regiments within the Division. So it's a matter of either following the Stammtafeln or the other sources. Also some sources say that there were plans to form a second Estonian division out of the Border Guard Regiments, but the plans were never realized. So it all comes down to were the Border Guard Regiments part of the Division and the first to join it like the German Stammtafeln says or not.--Termer (talk) 07:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
From User talk:Vihelik: Your claim based on a single sentence (...das mit Hilfe von Angehörigen der 20. Waffen-SS Division unter dem Befehl des Kommandeurs der Ausbildungs- und Ersatzeinheiten, Georg Ahlemann, abgeriegelt wurde) from the lone source you provide is simply incorrect. Don't you think the Soviets wouldn't have used this for their propaganda if it were true? The fact remains that after interrogating the surviving witnesses even the Soviet authorities, who did their utmost to demonize the 20. Division, never accused any members of the Estonian Division in any of the crimes committed at the Klooga concentration camp, because they simply weren't present. However, accounts abound of how the Estonian conscripts arrested the German officers who were in charge of the training camp. How could Ahlemann be in two places at the same time, under arrest at the training camp by his own soldiers, and providing security at the concentration camp? What your precious court records (that you probably have not seen with your own eyes) contain is most likely the orders how the liquidation was supposed to have taken place (just a conjecture;).--Vihelik (talk) 22:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted a weird insertion of a false quote from Birn - I have the article in front of me and the quote as such does not exist. It had also marked Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity as a source - which actually stated:
“ | The 287th was on duty at the Klooga camp in September 1944, when the last surviving prisoners were killed. It is not clear whether the actual killings were carried out by German SS guards, by members of a reserve unit of the Estonian SS, or by members of the 287th. It is however clear that the 287th was actively involved in gathering together the prisoners, guarding them, and escorting them to their death. The unit was withdrawn to Germany and most of its men were sent to the 20th Estonian SS Division | ” |
— http://www.mnemosyne.ee/hc.ee/pdf/conclusions_en_1941-1944.pdf |
I hope this clears up the confusion now. 20th was not at Klooga, nor is it clear that men of 287th were involved in killing - like it has been said, their lieutenant Egon Valter was arrested because the men refused to participate in the killing:
“ | There was a rebellion of Estonian soldiers at Klooga. Used as an internment camp for Jews by the Germans, on September 19 the evacuating Germans had a special German unit kill the remaining Jews in the camp. The Estonians strongly protested this action. The protest was delivered by Lt. Egon Valter to the regimental commander Ahlemann who tore Valter’s Iron Cross ribbon from his tunic, demoted him to private and had him jailed. Infuriated, the Estonians broke into the armoury and armed themselves, released Valter and jailed Ahlemann. | ” |
— http://www.eesti.ca/printarticle.php?id=2334 |
“ | 19. septembril 1944 teatas Klooga laagri ülem SS-Untersturmführer Wilhelm Werle ülesrivistatud laagrile, et laager evakueeritakse. Küll aga ei teatanud ta laagrit valvanud 3.kompanii meestele, et kõigi laagriasukate jaoks transport puudub ja kõige ohtlikumad Reichi vastased likvideeritakse. Kloogale saabus SD erikomando, mis alustas laagri lähedal metsas hukkamisi. Eestlased olid sellisest käitumisest jahmunud ja teatasid sellest lähedal asunud Eesti 20.SS-Diviisi väljaõppelaagrisse. Väljaõppelaagrist läks leitnant Egon Valter protestiga SS-Sturmbannführer Georg Ahlemanni jutule. Viimane vihastas eestlaste sekkumise üle, rebis Valteri rinnalt Raudristi lindi ja vahistas leitnandi. Nüüd aga vihastusid eestlased, nad murdsid sisse relvalattu ja relvastusid. Valter vabastati ja vahistati hoopis Ahlemann. Võim Kloogal läks täielikult eestlaste kätte. Admiral Pitka palvel sakslane hiljem siiski vabastati. Kuigi 287.politseipataljoni mehed hukkamistest osa ei võtnud, mõisteti peale sõda 38 pataljoni meest selles süüdistatuna pikaks ajaks vangi. | ” |
— http://www.eestileegion.com/index.php?categoryid=122 |
As far as I follow your rant, you are not convinced by peer-reviewed academic publications. Fine. I agree, Estonian SS veterans know best what happened. Unfortunately, there is a conflict of interest about what they will tell us. So, you chose to belief the SS veterans as they happen to speak your language, while I choose to trust German and English sources, as I speak those languages. Interestingly, your own government did not go so far as to exclude any responsibility, simply stating, that they were unable to find out who did the shooting. Well, I will be back to those outlandish publications then.--Dodo19 (talk) 15:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
You want to be taken serious, act seriously. This is an English-language project, so sources should be in English - it's simply courtesy, for a lot of people out there do speak neither Estonian nor Russian. How would you like some Hebrew or Yiddish publications cited in the article? Alas, it would be nice to have some real sources in the article anyway, instead of private home pages and veterans blogs. I am happy to discuss facts, but I am less inclined to suffer your inferiority complex much longer. --Dodo19 (talk) 05:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
So you are saying that you re-insered a quote from IP (which I thought was you?) without even possibility to check if it was correct?! Oh, my. I suggest in the future, if you edit such controversial topics, you'll avoid such actions.
You could have asked me for the article - I could have sent you the PDF in seconds. The exact, non-bungled source from Birn is "The final acts of liquidating the camps, such as Klooga, which involved the mass-shooting of roughly 2,000 prisoners, were committed by Estonians under German command, that is by units of the 20.SS-Division and (presumably) the Schutzmannschaftsbataillon of the KdS.64"
Weiss-Wend is very amusing. He cherry-picks sources and facts that suit his sensationalism, skipping both aforementioned Birn article and book and the definite work about the era, “Estonia 1940–1945”. He attacks the Commission, "The Commission was convened in 1998, and was the first such body in the Baltic, as has been emphasized. The date is significant, as Estonia was entering into talks with the EU and NATO regarding membership in these two organizations.", while he must have known that the idea for the Commission started even before 1994. The final push to start the Commission was from Andrew Baker and Nicholas Lane of the American Jewish Committee in spring 1998.
Not to mention, Estonia became a member of NATO in 2004 and Commission published its findings in 2006...
He goes on, "Of the six international members of the Commission only three were historians, and none of them was an expert on either Soviet or Nazi policies. It was an open secret that they were selected on the basis of their ‘friendliness’ towards Estonia.", making it sound like there were Estonian members, while in fact there were only six members and Max Jakobson as the chairman. Three of the members are Jews, including Jakobson - and many had no special "‘friendliness’ towards Estonia".
See also another review of Weiss-Wend's book, this one by a German historian Olaf Mertelsmann - also, an interesting (if irrelevant to the current topic) paper by him here.
Cherry picking seems to be your national pastime. The quote is correct with the exception that camps, such as Klooga, was substituted with Klooga concentration camp. The blame is with you, as you were claiming it failed verification. It is not our job to verify or falsify the 'content of a reference, only to check whether the quoted text is correct. If you don't agree with what she writes, you are free to use other sources, which say so. As it happens, Birn did not repeat the allegations in her more recent publications, thus there is no dispute here.
As with regard to Weiss-Wendt, he is free to express his own views. If you have a problem with his methodology, write a review, get it published. But make sure you write his name correctly. --Dodo19 (talk) 10:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC) P.S. I would love to live in Florida, but sadly I am not.
I believe I understand the source but you can always tell me what I am missing. //Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:55, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The removal of references that fall under WP:RS is vandalism.--Dodo19 (talk) 3:16 pm, Today (UTC+2)
..., das mit Hilfe von Angehörigen der 20. Waffen-SS Division unter dem Befehl des Kommandeurs der Ausbildungs- und Ersatzeinheiten, Georg Ahlemann, abgeriegelt wurde. [..., which was sealed of with the assistance of members of the 20th Waffen-SS Division under the command of the commander od the training and replacement units, Georg Ahlemann.] (Birn 2008, p. 164)
Now where is your problem? --Dodo19 (talk) 19:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
So, why are you making such a fuss then, if the recruits from the Estonian division had been guarding the camp all the time?--Dodo19 (talk) 10:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
seems to have happened? No other source supports such claims, in case it can't be WP:Verified, it should be excluded from the article.--Termer (talk) 06:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
PS. also, Dodo19 you're not suppose to misuse your rollback rights in an edit war like you've been doing here:,, .--Termer (talk) 06:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I've fully protected the article because of the current edit warring. Please discuss any proposed changes on this page and let me or any other admin know if you wish to make consensual edits to the article. Thanks. --RegentsPark (talk) 18:09, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Battalions 658 and 659 were Eastern Battalions, not Police ones. That's a fact that I think everybody agrees with. DJ Sturm (talk) 18:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "Streamline infobox; c/e; npov; unneeded piping; excessive intricate detail; reduce "See also" - red link / already linked in the article; tag". I also removed non RS / questionable sources not used for citations. Please let me know of any concerns. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:48, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
The division participated in mass executions and repressions in Belarus, this should be mentioned somewhere in the article.Miacek (talk) 22:02, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "undue as not all were conscripts". The cadre of the unit were volunteers. Further, the 1950 declaration, at the dawn of the Cold War, is hardly authoritative. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:28, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I removed unsourced and / or nn entries with this edit. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I've just reverted one of your edits. I've re-checked the material cited to Müller (which I originally added), and what was there before your change was accurate. Your edit misrepresented this source. Nick-D (talk) 10:43, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Müller on p139 calls them the “Estonian 20th SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division”, Gilbert does not support Müller's claim the 30,000 were volunteers at all, in his book Waffen-SS: Hitler's Army at War he states ”The introduction of conscription in Estonia in March 1943 witnessed the expansion of the Estonian Legion, which in turn led to the establishment of the Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade in May 1943. A further general mobilisation in February 1944 produced sufficient recruits to create the 20th Waffen-Grenadier Division of the SS”. You do understand that general mobilisations are compulsory, there is no element of volunteerism involved, don't you? I'm old enough to recall my older brother's fear in recieving a letter from the Australian government on whether he was selected for National Service and hence go to Vietnam, had he been selected and turned up to the recruitment office he wouldn't have been volunteering, he would have been conscripted. If we replace Müller's "volunteering" term with Gilbert's term "mobilized" with the appropropriate reference to Gilbert, such that your text "This led to 30,000 men volunteering for the military" becomes "This led to 30,000 men mobilized into the military", that would be better. --Nug (talk) 01:31, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Of what relevance is "Additionally, a total of 38,000 men were conscripted in Estonia" in the lead? Clearly not all these men went to the division, which is the subject of the article. A three-regiment Waffen-SS division had a maximum strength of about 25,000, give or take a thousand or so depending on what combat support and logistical units were included. Given there was already a nucleus of legion and brigade members, 38,000 is probably twice that which would have been needed to make up the division to full strength, so clearly a significant proportion of these men went to other formations. In the lead, all we need to do is establish that there were early volunteers to the legion and brigade, and the division was brought up to strength by conscripts. We don't need misleading and irrelevant figures like this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:22, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
I’ve reverted this edit by Marcelus (talk · contribs). There was extensive discussion on this talk page above at #Klooga_incident, about the alleged involvement of the 20th division in the killings and the Birn reference used to support that. The conclusion was that in light of other sources there is no conclusive evidence that the training unit of 20th division (while located near the camp) was involved in the killings. —Nug (talk) 23:16, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I'll just note that the 287th Estonian Police Battalion (formerly a Schuma battalion) was absorbed by the division a month after this event, so members of the division were clearly involved, the argument presumably being that this occurred before they joined the division. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Müller says all volunteers were forced to leave, Mitchem say all troops who wanted to remain were released. They both can't be right. --Nug (talk) 00:07, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:13, 7 August 2019 (UTC)Officially activated on January 24, 1944, many of its soldiers were former members of the 3rd Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade and/or the Estonian Legion, which had been in combat since October 1943 and August 1942, respectively. The 20th SS received 15,000 volunteers - enough to reach full divisional strength.
I've dug around a bit it seems the table at #Formation_of_the_Division is an amalgam of a number of sources. I found the following table on page 957 of the Estonian History Commission report, which I have copied verbatim:
The reorganisation of the 20th Estonian SS Division according to the Stammtafeln which have survived
Formation | Unit | Where the personnel came from |
---|---|---|
March 31 1944 | 20th SS-Artillery Regiment 4th Battalion | Men who had been sent to the SS Beneschau artillery school for training |
April 4 1944 | 20th SS-Artillery Regiment staff and 2nd and 3rd Battalion | 53rd SS-Artillery Battalion, and conscripts. |
April | SS-Artillery Regiment I Battalion | 53rd SS-Artillery Battalion |
April 13 1944 | 20th SS-Signals Battalion | 20th SS-Signals Company and conscripts. |
April 14 1944 | 45th SS-Grenadier Regiment 2nd Battalion brought to full strength | Border Defence Regiment “Reval” 1st Battalion |
April 18 1944 –
beginning of May 1944 |
46th SS-Grenadier Regiment 3rd Battalion | Wehrmacht 660th Eastern Battalion and conscripts. |
April 18 1944 | 20th SS-Volunteer Division Fusilier Battalion (single infantry battalion) | Former SS-Panzer Division “Wiking” Battalion "Narwa" and conscripts. |
April 24 1944 | 47th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 1st Battalion | Former Wehrmacht’s 659th Eastern Battalion and conscripts. |
April 24 1944 | 47th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 2nd Battalion | Former Wehrmacht’s 658th Eastern Battalion and conscripts. |
May 3 1944 – July 10 1944 | 20th Waffen-Anti-tank Battalion | 14th Company (Anti-tank) as the 1st company of the battalion of the 45th SS-Regiment and conscripts. |
May 3 1944 | The new 14th (Anti-tank) Company of 45th Waffen-Grenadier Regiment | The Anti-tank Platoon of the Division and conscripts. |
May 8 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 1st Motorised Medical Company | 20th SS-Medical Company and conscripts. |
May 8 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 2nd Medical Company | 20th SS-Medical Company 1st Platoon and conscripts. |
May 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division rear headquarters | |
April 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 1st Re-supply Transport Company | |
April 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Transport Company | |
April 16 1944 | 20th Waffen-Maintenance Company | |
May 4 1944 | 20th Waffen-Light Artillery Re-supply Convoy | Previously under the command of 20th SS Anti-aircraft Battalion |
May 15 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division 2nd Re-supply Transport Company | Formed from men from the field reserve battalion |
May 17 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division Rear Company | Formed of 46th SS-Grenadier Regiment 3rd Battalion troops |
June 1 1944–13 July 1944 | 20th Waffen-Division Engineer Battalion | 20th SS-Division 3rd Engineer Company and conscripts. |
I have found another table on page 977 that accounts for 38,000 men mobilised cited in various sources, (I have slightly consolidated the table by combining Officers, NCO and soldiers as I don't want to spend ages typing it out) titled:
The distribution of men called to service by the 1944 mobilisation on 1 April 1944
Unit | Subordination | Number of men |
---|---|---|
Regiment "Tallinn" | Army Detachment Narwa | 1647 |
1st Border Defence Regiment | the 18th Army | 2501 |
2nd Border Defence Regiment | Army Detachment Narwa | 2522 |
3rd Border Defence Regiment | Army Detachment Narwa | 2646 |
4th Border Defence Regiment | the 18th Army | 2152 |
5th Border Defence Regiment | Inspector General | 2386 |
6th Border Defence Regiment | Inspector General | 2577 |
Reserve regiment of the Border Defence Regiments | Inspector General | 2986 |
Reinforcement units of the 20th Estonian SS-Division | SS training and reinforcement battalion | 9157 |
286th, 288th Police Battalions and 35th Reserve | Chief of Order Police in Estonia | 1377 |
4 construction-engineer battalions | Formation staff Rieberg | 2361 |
Artillery of Major Joosep Lääne | Inspector General | 585 |
Search Commandos of the Omakaitse staff | Omakaitse or Wehrmacht | 685 |
Reserve units of the Omakaitse | Inspector General | 4472 |
So the 1944 mobilisation saw 9157 conscripts, quarter of the total, assigned to the Division. Did they have a choice which branch they were assigned to after being inducted after the 1944 mobilisation call, or was it essentially a lottery? The Estonian History Commission report also mentions that Himmler was considering creating a second SS Division, so those other 28,000 men could have found themselves in the Waffen-SS as well. Gerwarth in the book The Waffen-SS: A European History states the men had expressed reluctance at being a part of the Waffen-SS, and the Germans in essence replied it was the occupiers who choose which men, how many and for what purpose. So how does that sit with Müller's or Mitchem's statement that 30,000 or 15,000 volunteered after the mobilisation call? Seems to me that Misiunas and Taagepera statement that 38,000 men registered for the military after mobilisation is the more accurate characterisation. --Nug (talk) 11:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
There is quite a lot of uncited operational details in the article at present. I'm guessing that this was added from non-RS like axishistory in the dim dark past. In the hope of getting this article to Milhist B-Class at least in the short-term, I propose trimming this down to the basic outline provided in Thomas and Jurado. It can always be expanded in the future if someone gets their hands on detailed sources about the fighting. Any objections? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:09, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
"The Nuremberg tribunal ruled that the 30,000 Estonians who had served in the Baltic Legions were conscripts, not volunteers, and defined them as freedom fighters protecting their homelands from a Soviet occupation and as such they were not true members of the criminal Waffen SS.[42]"
Response: The Nuremberg tribunal included Soviet representatives and they would never have agreed [as in the referenced "tribunal ruling"] to the above wording re "[Estonains] protecting their homelands from a Soviet occupation"!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.195.126.66 (talk) 08:52, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
There is a video about the 6621 at the trials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qcEFnGeZ6A 2600:6C67:1C00:300:F5D1:2C9:FC32:A890 (talk) 04:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
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