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URL changed: Please update the link to the following picture gallery
http://asiapolis.perspektive89.com/gallery - Pictures from Kabul and Afghanistan => NEW Link: http://foto.perspektive89.com Mario Behling (talk) 22:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
According to Anwar-ul-Haq Ahady (a Pashtun himself and the head of Afghan Mellat) the state of Afghanistan emerged in 1880 under Abdur Rahman Khan, not during the Ahmad Shah Durrani era as this article claims. See Ahady's article:
The Decline of the Pashtuns in Afghanistan, Anwar-ul-Haq Ahady, Asian Survey, Vol. 35, No. 7. (Jul., 1995), pp. 621-634.
Afghani is another commonly used demonym. A Google search for Afghani gives 2,260,000 results, so obviously it is a commonly used term. It is also listed in dictionaries as a native or inhabitant of Afghanistan (link).
We have been through this already. It is included in a footnote to what is in the infobox, and this was the consensus agreement for the sake of compromise. If you wish to see the lengthy discussions we have already had concerning this, please see the talk archives. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The poll needs to be re-worded. The way it is now, it gives the impression that Afghani is not included in the article at all. The wording is misleading and could skew the results, so the poll needs to be redone. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The reason there should be two separate polls is very simple and should be obvious: the person voting might want Afghani but not Afghanistasni, or they might want Afghanistani but not Afghani.
You've again deleted my comments, in defiance of a three-fold warning from another user. And ThuranX does not seem to be an admin: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&dir=prev&limit=500&group=sysop
(The above three comments refactored for legibility)ThuranX (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Wow guys, I don't know what the big argument is. "Afghani" is obviously used as a demonym by many people, regardless of what dictionaries it may or may not be in. As for "Afghanistani", I've never heard that personally, but I could see it's use in distinguishing ethnic Afghans from citizens of the country or whatever. Considering that all three see some level of use I see no reason not to include all three in the info box. QVanillaQ (talk) 16:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Considering that Afghani is defined as people of Afghanistan in the dictionaries listed above and that there are 3,080,000 Google search results for it, shouldn't Afghani be listed as a demonym?
Please sign underneath which one you want to see with four tildes (~) and if you vote no please provide a reason.
Please vote in support of one of three possible positions on the demonym issue:
--Anoshirawan 05:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Only this, a comprehensive set of options, will show real consensus, as it offers people ALL possible permutations, without biases or omissions. ThuranX (talk) 05:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi SwatiAfridi!
In the article about Afghanistan, you changed the name of one of the official languages of this country atop the infobox, from Dari to “Persian”.
Despite your claim that «this language is known as Persian in English»,
If you speak one (or more) Persian dialect(s) or language(s), you may share this view, which is largely disputed, but please, do not put it forcibly on others [1].
Otherwise, you may know that there are enough differences between Iran's and Afghanistan's Persian dialects to cause full or partial incomprehension between most inhabitants of both countries.
I noted this fact by myself a couple of years ago, and I was not alone to do so. There is even a short passage in a documentary by Mohsen Makhmalbāf, الفبای افغان (The Afghan Alphabet), the young Herāti girl, a “Fārsīwān”, does not understand what Iranian people — them being Fārsīwānān too — from the Refugee village (some 30 mi. from the border) say… This example and my repeated experience are only two among many others.
I have been careful enough to avoid “all” delicate points about this country and others — I could not imagine this relatively tiny spot could become controversial… I would be grateful to you to respect the undid revert.
بیش از این مزاحمت نمی شوم. عجالتاً خدا نگهدار
✓ Kanġi Oĥanko (talk) 16:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
NB: Same message left at SwatiAfridi's talk page too.
“ | Darī (q.v.) is a term long recommended by Afghan authorities to designate Afghan Persian in contrast to Iranian Persian; a written language common to all educated Afghanis, Darī must not be confused with Kābolī, the dialect of Kabul and surrounding areas that is more or less understood by eighty percent of the non-Persian speaking population and is fast becoming the nation's koine. [...] The revival of the ancient term Darī was intended to signify that Afghans consider their country the cradle of the language. Hence, the name Fārsī, the language of Fārs, is strictly avoided. | ” |
One way you could have easily proven this to yourself is by going to the Iran article. You can see in that article's info-box Jomhūrī-ye Eslāmī-ye Īrān, which is exactly the same as this.
Well Tajik007 has been indef blocked as a confirmed sock of Beh-nam. So that about clears that up... Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The Afghanistan article has a section on culture but nothing about the plastic arts. Specific sites (Bamiyan, Balkh) have architecture, sculpture, painting but I have not found a place for the arts of Afghanistan. Am I missing it? Does a section need to be created? I bring this up today because I was searching for an appropriate place to add a note about the item on the Wikipedia News Box--the LA Times article on the discovery of evidence of oil painting at Bamiyan. Will (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following:
A Moroccan traveller, Ibn Battuta, visiting Kabul in 1333 writes: "We travelled on to Kabul, formerly a vast town, the site of which is now occupied by a village inhabited by a tribe of Persians called Afghans. They hold mountains and defiles and possess considerable strength, and are mostly highwaymen."[1]
The source is a nice read, but this part is inaccurate. Afghans are an Iranian tribe, but they are not a Persian tribe. There is no such thing as Persian tribes. Also I doubt that during this time there was any people called Afghans in Kabul since Encyclopedia of Islam says during this time they lived south of Kabul. CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 06:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
{{cite encyclopedia}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(help)I don't know if you're trying to be funny or not claiming that I don't know my own language. However, in case you're serious, simply look at the first sentence of the article (Afghanistan, officially the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (Pashto: د افغانستان اسلامي جمهوریت, Persian: جمهوری اسلامی افغانستان), is a landlocked country that is located approximately in the center of Asia.) and compare it to previous versions... and you will see it has never been contested. If you are trying to be funny or just vandalizing for kicks, please stop. CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 07:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Consensus is not a one man show. Kengi has given us his POV. If Kengi gave some sources then I would have argued against him. However, I will not bother wasting time with WP:POVs. One user's POV does cannot change the long established consensus that was already there. I've checked earlier versions and the language has always been referred to as Persian in this article. If other users come along and agree with Kengi and provide some sources making this claim, then I will argue with them. Though I know no one will since they won't find any such sources. Until then Kengi's POVs can be ignored. CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 07:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, he was another sock of Beh-nam. Contentious changes to the issues of language or demonym will be reverted, with extreme prejudice (i.e. ruthlessly), as vandalism, by me. If anyone makes changes without first discussing them here, and establishing clear consensus, they are vandalizing. Discussions here are more than welcome. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
In all fairness, dʒʊmhur and ɪsläm are not irɒni words. DJ1AM (talk) 05:17, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The sources for Middle East actually said Central Asia. Middle East can be added back but with proper sources. Also, I added more meaningful pictures and removed the previous ones where politics are eating lunch and the vise president appearing as police commissioner.--Bistiks (talk) 19:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I removed these sources:
We don't even need so many sources for this, just CIA is fine because they deal alot with geography of countrys. CIA says Southern Asia but many other reliable sources (including Afghanistan's government related sites) also say "Central Asia" so we can leave both and that's what I did. It's easy to read South-Central Asia than Central-South Asia or Central Asia, South Asia, etc. It makes no sense to fight over this. To say it is part of Central Asia, South Asia, and Middle East would be stupid and not making sense. The persons (Tajik) and (Beh-nam), who are pushing for Afghanistan to be added in Middle East are extremely ignorant pro-Iranian Shiites, wanting Afghanistan to be close to Iran because Iran is Shiite just like them and is part of the Middle East. That's their purpose with all this edit-wars they do on Afghanistan related articles and I'm very sure of it. Evertime when there is edit-war it's them again. One idoit is from Germany and the other stupid one is from Canada. They are even giving Germany and Canada a bad name.--Bistiks (talk) 20:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe the pictures that I added are what needs to be in this article.
Since a blocked sock was the only person objecting to your edits, I am fine with maintaining them. Carl.bunderson (talk) 16:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Hey I noticed this discussion seems to have died and the article still lists Afghanistan as being "located within Central Asia, South Asia, and the Middle East". The Middle East claim has 3 references, however I read all three of them, all of them cite Afghanistan as either in South Asia or Central Asia, none of them mention the Middle East. I think this common misconception stems from Afghanistan being an Islamic Republic, when most of the Islam dominated countries are located in the Middle East. It's similar to many people refering to all Muslims as "Arab", Arabs are strictly from Saudi Arabia, it is not nearly as general a term as many people seem to think. Anyway, unless someone objects, could we please remove the Middle East reference? Thanks, Rodwa4 (talk) 19:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Carl, I think there is a reason this section is titled "Misleading Sources", the person who is using those references clearly is hoping that you will not actually read what is on those websites. The first site does not say anything about the location of Afghanistan, it doesn't say Middle East or Central Asia, but your assuming that it means it is in the Middle East because the website is titled "The Middle East Network Information Center". Well like I noted before, people like to confuse the geographic Middle East with Muslim countries. If you look at that website more closely, you will see it has 29 countries listed including Afghanistan, but included in those 29 countries are 9 that are Arabic speaking countries in Africa, and most of the rest with the exception of a few are either in Central or Southwestern Asia. So clearly that site is not dedicated to countries in the Middle East, but simply to Islamic, Arabic speaking countries. Now about your third source, it is also misleading: It's title is "The Middle East Institute", however, if you read what it actually says, the very first sentence begins with this: "Afghanistan is a republic in southwestern Asia", and if you search the page, in no place does it say anything about Afghanistan being in the Middle East. So I can understand your confusion, but please actually check the sources before stating that they "implicitly" support someones claim. Rodwa4 (talk) 04:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Carl, I didn't mean to sound rude like that. That was my bad on being dumb and not knowing what that word meant and also just having a bad tone in my response. I apologize.Rodwa4 (talk) 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted to clarify, do you agree that the part about it being in the Middle East should be removed or do we need to further discuss it? Rodwa4 (talk) 15:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Please remove "and the Middle East." from the second sentence of the lead, ending the sentence at "South Asia." Per the discussion above, the provided references do not say it is a Middle Eastern country. Thanks. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, Behnam wanted me to go through the talk archive to see how this was discussed before. Looking at it, it does seem there is at least one RS which says Afghanistan is in the Middle East, here: http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/cmenas/info.htm. So maybe we should replace the existing refs for "Middle East" with this one? What does everyone think? Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Afghan National Army: 76,000
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/11/content_8146907.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasmasyean (talk • contribs) 21:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
It has been suggested that we add something about Afghanistan's cuisine to this article. I opted to add a link in the see also to Cuisine of Afghanistan, but what do others think? Do we need to put a couple/few sentence into the culture section? My only hesitation is that the article is plenty-long enough as it is. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
The Soviet forces in 1989, leaving a puppet regime. The anti-communist militia continued to fight that puppet regime.
Didn't the anti-communist militia's overthrow the communists circa 1991? Didn't the loose coalition lead to a new President, who unfortunately only controlled Kabul, initiating several years of civil war in the rest of the country?
The article currently implies that the Soviet Union's puppets continued in power until they were overthrown by the Taliban in 1995. But, that's not right, is it?
Shouldn't there be separate sections for the Soviet occupation, and the civil war that followed it, during which the Taliban rose to power?
Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 13:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes Geo Swan you are right, when the Mujahideen overthrew the Communists in 1992, there was a disagreement over which factions of the Mujahideen would take power, and the result was a devastating civil war which may have caused as much or even more damage then the Soviet invasion did. Then the Taliban overthrew the Mujahideen faction that was in control of Kabul in 1995/1996. If I get the time I will try to rewrite this section and cite some good sources. Rodwa4 (talk) 19:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Alefbe, it is clear to me that you do not understand phonology through your edits. Please do not make further edits unless you are certain that they are correct. I will explain, though, that [æ] does not represent the front open vowel as well as [a]. For proof, say the English word "man" with an American accent; and then say the pɒrsi word for "me".--DJ1AM (talk) 19:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Those phonology books are wrong. [æ] was created as a part of the IPA vowels specifically to accomodate American English; notice that it is not representative of one of the four major vowel heights. pɒrsi does not have this sound. [a] is a more accurate and general representation of that vowel. -- DJ1AM (talk) 20:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It is definitely not [æ]. Just because some book says that it is does not make it so. Anybody can read a book and decide to edit wikipedia. Let the people that have read the books and understand the subject edit the subject matter. -- DJ1AM (talk) 20:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
While it is great that you know how to copy text out of a book, I doubt that you have an understanding of what is written. Your lack of understanding is shown through the use of phonological brackets in your edits rather than phonetic ones. Your transcription would be closer to being correct if it were in phonetic brackets. For an introduction to the subject matter, read David Odden's book Introducing Phonology.-- DJ1AM (talk) 21:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
And Carl.bunderson, your source is not of much use as it uses a nonnative pronunciation, using [æ] instead of [ɒ]. -- DJ1AM (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that anyone is interested in the foreign pronunciation of a name. It is much more useful to include the native pronunciation as that is the one that would be informative to most users. -- DJ1AM (talk) 22:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Does Cowan and Rakusan actually say that that is the pronunciation of Afghanistan? If so, you need to provide a page number. And if not, the reference needs to be removed because it is misleading. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The identification of the Persian low vowels as [æ], [ɒ] comes straight from the IPA Handbook. However, that's for Tehran dialect. kwami (talk) 06:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if this will be helpful to this debate, but I learned Dari from teachers who all formerly lived in Kabul, several of which taught at Kabul University, and they taught me to pronounce Afghanistan with each of the "a"s being pronounced like the vowel in the English words "on" and "frog". I know nothing of phonology, so I don't know how those vowels should be represented, but that is how it should sound if you are looking for the native Afghan sound. Also the "gh" in Afghanistan representes the Persian letter "ghayn" (غ), which is a sound completely non-existent in English, so I don't know how you want to deal with that. I hope this information is helpful. Rodwa4 (talk) 19:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
The source cited for languages, the CIA World Fact Book, says: "Languages: Afghan Persian or Dari (official) 50%, Pashto (official) 35%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%, much bilingualism." --Bejnar (talk) 22:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The name Afghan-stan comes from sanskrit, It was orginally ashva-gana-sthan, in sanskrit ashva=horse, gana=people and shtan=land. Beacuse of the numerous horse riders it was named so. If we apply normal phonetic rules of this area, we realise that 'f' ans 'shv' are commonly interchanged and replaced by each other.
Ashok Harsana freewebtown.com/ashokharsana —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashokharsana (talk • contribs) 08:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Since this article is locked, I cannot make any edits, but I have noticed two erros in this article: Under the "Demographics" section, there is a reference to the "Afghani" population. I don't know if it is a typo or just ignorance by the author, but Afghani is the currency used in Afghanistan, the population should be refered to as "Afghan" (no "i"). Also, directly below that in the "Languages" section, it is written that the two official languages are Pashto and Persian (Dari dialects). This is also wrong, the official languages are Pashto and Dari, and Dari happens to be a Persian language, but Persian itself is the official language of Iran, not Afghanistan. Rodwa4 (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Well let me just say this, in Dari and Pashto both, both "Afghan" (افغان) and "Afghani" (افغانی) are used, however "Afghan" is used to refer to people, and "Afghani" is only used to refer to inanimate objects, such as an "Afghani rug" etc, but even in that capacity it is much more common to say "Afghan rug". In any case it is better for us to use "Afghan", because nobody will argue that "Afghan" is not a proper term, but the use of the term "Afghani" on wikipedia inevitably generates protests and conflicts. Rodwa4 (talk) 19:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
In the first sentence of the Demographics section, please changed "Afghani" to Afghan, per above discussion, as well as other demonym discussions. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
In the Transport section a sentence reads, "one is between Heart and the Iranian city Mashad." I believe the Afghan city should be changed to Herat. Friedpez (talk) 15:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Update Infobox with the following:
Source: List of countries by GDP (PPP) and List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita. ☆ CieloEstrellado 09:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think a month old edit war is enough to merit full protection on a mainspace page. Semi-edit and sysop-move would be a better idea. Just voicing my opinion. --Boss Big (talk) 21:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Please remove the scrolling capability (the div tags) of the references section. Basically, the scroll box cuts out all of the references not shown when a user prints the page. See this discussion for more details: Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 11#Template:Scrollref. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Removed, thanks for reporting. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to take issue with the wording of one of the sentences in the Republic section. According to the article:
The U.S. saw the situation as a prime opportunity to weaken the Soviet Union. As part of a Cold War strategy, in 1979 the United States government (under President Jimmy Carter and National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski) began to covertly fund and train anti-government Mujahideen forces through the Pakistani secret service known as Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), with the intention of provoking Soviet intervention, (according to Brzezinski).
The sentence in question cites this source as a reference. However, the source doesn't really confirm that the U.S. intended to provoke a Soviet intervention. Indeed, the following portion of the interview seems to disagree with this assessment:
Interviewer: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
Brzezinski: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Based on the interview, my impression is that the Carter administration was primarily concerned with overthrowing the Soviet-allied government of Afghanistan. They were aware that their strategy could potentially lead to Soviet intervention, and did not view this as a drawback. However, Soviet intervention was not the primary goal. If I could edit the article myself, I would simply remove the last phrase of the sentence.
By the way, the interviewer cites Robert Gates's memoir "From the Shadows" as a the primary source revealing early U.S. involvement in Afghanistan. I think the article should probably cite this book as well as the interview. Most Americans aren't aware that U.S. involvement began this early, so more sources (and more information if possible) would be helpful.
I have now made a Template of Afghanistan-related topics:
Please if you can add to it. Also, can someone put this in the article.Ardeshire Babakan (talk) 01:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC) And could you also add a link to the Afghanistan Portal. Cheers.Ardeshire Babakan اردشیر بابکان (talk) 22:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
The figures in the article for petroleum and gas reserves seemed way high when reading the article 22 August 2008. Knowing that the U.S. Geological Survey had been rather active in-country (I did a lot of development work in Afghanistan 2006-7), I poked around their site. A March 2006 USGS report on undiscovered reserves in the north is at http://afghanistan.cr.usgs.gov/downloadfile.php?file=Oil%20and%20Gas%20Resources.pdf (11.2MB PDF; apparently non-conforming to older PDF standards as it is finicky as to which reader will open it). It appears that the the author of this portion of the article used this report's optimistic "F5" values, meaning an estimate of reserves having only a 5% chance of being met or exceeded by the actual hydrocarbon deposits. It seems that the "F50" or mean values would be far more realistic; the "F5" values are out near the end of the statistical tail. What does the community think about changing the figures to reflect USGS' "F50" values (and it goes without saying properly referencing the source)? Best regards, Darwinianphysicist (talk) 01:40, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afghan British. Badagnani (talk) 04:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Ibn Battuta did not describe afghans as a tribe of persian..!! this is the original text from arabic he said:
"ثم سافرنا إلى كابل وكانت فيما سلف مدينة عظيمة وبها ألان قرية يسكنها طائفة من العجم يقال لهم الأفغان ولهم جبال وشعاب وشوكة قوية واكثرهم قطاع طريق وجبلهم الكبير يسمى كوه سليمان"
tranclation:
and then We travelled on to Kabul, formerly a vast town, the site of which is now occupied by a village inhabited by a range of Ajam called Afghans . They hold mountains and defiles and a position of strength, most of them are highwaymen and their largest Mount is called Koh Solomon
--Bayrak (talk) 22:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
yes I have this an page from the full text of Ibn Battuta book show his sentence --Bayrak (talk) 01:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
this is the original text.. --Bayrak (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
you have the original text now..this is my Maximum effort --Bayrak (talk) 19:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The article says "The previous court, appointed during the time of the interim government, had been dominated by fundamentalist religious figures, including Chief Justice Faisal Ahmad Shinwari. The court had issued numerous questionable rulings, such as banning cable television, seeking to ban a candidate in the 2004 presidential election and limiting the rights of women"
Doesn't it violate the the NPOV policy to call these decisions "questionable"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Web wonder (talk • contribs) 20:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted the unilateral changes by User:Banigul. Tājik (talk) 14:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the large copy and paste text from the "Name" section. The etymological origins of the word "Afghan" are quite irrelevant for this article, because the modern nation "Afghanistan" does not have its name from the ancient Ashvakas. The country got this name in the 19th century, during the Great Game. In it's modern usage - and that's what's important for this article - the word "Afghan" is synonymous with "Pashtun", the founders of Afghanistan. Tājik (talk) 17:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
See here: Talk:Economy_of_Afghanistan#Trade_in_antiquities --Zaccarias (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
In the first portion of this article Afghanistan is translated to Land of the Afghans. This is correct however, somebody decided to link the word Afghans in this part to an article on the Pashtun people. I believe this is inappropriate and misleading to do so as Afghan refers to citizens of the state of Afghanistan who are not all Pashtun (e.g. Tajik, Aimaq, Turkmen, Hazara). Kouroush12 (talk) 11:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)Kouroush12
Afghan related articles needs more information about what the communist did in Afghanistan. While most of its work has been forgotten thanks to its collapse in 1992 and Mujahideen and Taliban forces destroying much of the infrastructure they buildt. It must be understood that the communists did many great and good things for Afghanistan. For example, during the Daoud's Republic of Afghanistan their were only 5 kindergartens in the whole country, in 1991 there were 400 kindergartens in Afghanistan. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/feb/26/afghanistan.comment) The DRA and PDPA had many other accomplishments, such as when it came to education, law enforcements etc.... They did a great deal and its not mentioned thanks to this American and Afghan anti-communist biaz.
Just as this is clear, i'm not a communist. But my point is that we can't forget all the good things they did for this country, they did alot. They accomplished much more then what the Afghan government did from 1919-1973. Can we please discuss this? --Im a Socialist! What Are You (talk) 14:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
With help from the Soviet Union they were able to build up infrastructure in the country in the biggest cities. One of the first thing the Soviets did, was to build a road through the country. This comes from the Fall of Kabul, 1992 section Library of Congress Country Studies "Kabul ultimately fell to the mujahedin because the factions in its government had finally pulled it apart. Until demoralized by the defections of its senior officers, the army had achieved a level of performance it had never reached under direct Soviet tutelage. It was a classic case of loss of morale. The regime collapsed while it still possessed material superiority."(http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/aftoc.html)
Following bit from the DRA article: For several years the government army had actually increased their effectiveness past levels ever achieved during the Soviet military presence. But the government was dealt a major blow when Abdul Rashid Dostum, a leading general, switched allegiances to the Mujahideen in 1992 and together they captured the city of Kabul.(http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CEFDB133AF93BA25757C0A964958260&pagewanted=1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1563344.stm)
I have much more sources supporting the build up of Afghani infrastructure during the the communist regime. --Im a Socialist! What Are You (talk) 13:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Note i have many more references Many of them are used on the DRA and the PDPA articles among others.
Why, well after National Reconciliation talks in 1987 they came up with the agreement of removing "Democratic" from their officiall name. So after the NR talks the countries offical name was the Republic of Afghanistan! --Im a Socialist! What Are You (talk) 16:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The current cited source is for American English and the readers should be reminded that its the common American pronunciation (not necessarily a universal English pronunciation). Alefbe (talk) 19:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Pashto is spoken by many pashtuns in rural areas. However the survey can not find them and it's hard for them. So I think thet statistics of pashto should be higher. Infact I think I should do my own survey :p —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.98.153 (talk) 06:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Before adding an image to the article consider that Wikipedia is not an image repository. The gallery tag is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article. There is an article for that purpose at Wikimedia Commons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilder Kaiser (talk • contribs) 15:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The Weather section seemed not very informative or well written, with information that is really an aspect of geography, so I removed it, slightly expanded the climate information in our Geography section, and added a pointer to the much more complete Geography of Afghanistan#Climate. I hope someone can improve what I wrote, to make it more representative of the country as a whole. It seems to me that detailed climate information is better maintained in one place, the Geography of Afghanistan article. Peter Chastain (talk) 02:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the material that was added from "Glossary: Pashtun, or Pakhtun" by Pierre Tristam at About.com as a copyright violation. --Bejnar (talk) 22:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Haseeb Naz (talk) 15:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC) I would like to add my link to this page related to Afghanistan Rulers and some of their coins in my collection. It can be viewed at: http://www.chiefacoins.com/Database/Countries/Afghanistan.htm
The population of Hazaras in Afghanistan is not 8 or 9 percent.
It is 19 - 25 percent.
I would like to insert a link for Afghanistan under "General Information"; I think it could be interesting to have a country profile linking to the FAO of the UN.
http://www.fao.org/countryprofiles/index.asp?lang=en&ISO3=AFG
Thank you.
--MontseBL (talk) 09:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
How much they have eradicated it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pentagonshark666 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Is it possible to delete the external link to "how hemp could save afghanistan", it's a sort of promotion of drugs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.7.131.40 (talk) 21:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
The sentences at the end of the lead section about a U.S.- Afghanistan partnership and aid money seemed too detailed for an introduction; the sentences also lacked any further development later on in the article, therefore they have been removed. In fact, the majority of the lead section seems far too focused on giving an overview of Afghanistan's war history. The lead section would be better off detailing some early dates marking the origins of Afghanistan, and the diversity of peoples who live and have lived there, and some explanations of their customs and culture, as opposed to a list of invasions by outside forces.
I propose that the second and third paragraphs be rewritten to give information about what it means to be Afghani, specifically linguistically, religiously, culturally, and historically.
--Baumgaertner (talk) 00:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
This currently gives the population as 33,609,937 (July 2009 est.). And urban population: 24% of total population (2008). This is a larger and more recent figure than is given in the article. -https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/AF.html93.96.148.42 (talk) 01:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
the phrase: "30 minor languages, primarily Balochi, Nuristani, Pashai, Brahui, Pamiri languages, Hindko, etc." is confusing because it lists the name of a single language, then the name of a group of languages, then two more names of single languages, then another name of a group...etc. That would be like saying "languages spoken in Europe include Portuguese, Germannic, Italian, Hungarian, Slavic...." Anyway, please try to make the list a litle more orderly. tashakur! Jakob37 (talk) 02:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed the statement "According to the survey "Afghanistan: Where Things Stand" (average numbers from 2005 to 2009), 69% of the interviewed people preferred Persian, while 31% spoke Pashto", because that is not what ABC NEWS/BBC/ARD POLL – AFGHANISTAN: WHERE THINGS STAND, February 9th, 2009, p. 38-40 said. That survey only reported two items: 1) language of interview, that was 70% in Dari and 30% in Pashto; and 2) percentage which can read language that was 40% for Dari and 29% for Pashto in the 2009 survey (down from 51% for Dari and 43% for Pashto in the 2004 survey). Neither of these items support the statement which was removed. MassaGetae(talk) 00:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The statement and the section was about languages spoken in Afghanistan. MassaGetae(talk) 01:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
"Afghān" is the term by which the Persian-speakers of Afghanistan (and the non-Paštō-speaking ethnic groups generally) designate the Paštūn. The equation [of] Afghan [and] Paštūn" the word Afghan should be replaced by the word Aoghan where we are talking about Pastouns. There is difference between the two words. reding the book by Daivajna Varāhamihira it does not equal the two words (Afghan and Aoghan) The word Aoghan describes ethic background pastuns the word Afghan the people of Afghanistan. The article is very deceptive as it implies that Afghanistan is land of pastun’s. Also the Khushal Khan Khattak poet who is written in Pasto he does not say Afghan in his poets but it says Aoghan in translation so please change that too. comment added by Spf108 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
This article suggest that US involement began after the Soviet invasion but many sources suggest that the US may have helped instigate that invasion. I think this is of important historical relavance. For instance: A 1998 interview in the Le Nouvel Observateur mentioned that Robert Gates stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In that same interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski he stated:
"According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul.... That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war."
Source:www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html and [Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#1979:_Soviet_deployment] 172.165.240.132 (talk) 21:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
AFGHAN BOY
The article says 28 million. But this news article http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/08/18/afghanistan-presidential-election-nato471.html, as of this writing, mentions "50 million Afghan voters". Henjeng55155 (talk) 00:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
For anyone interested on the global role of the Afghan people and its relationship to the world at large, I would like to contribute with this image. Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 05:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
The Milli Tarana (National Antehm) Should be moved and renamed to Milli Surood. As the name is meant to be the translation of national Antehm in Pashto, as per constitution of Afghanistan which I am giving the link to in Pashto, it is called Milli Surood (national Antehm) There is no Such thing as Milli Tarana. http://www.afghan-web.com/politics/currentconstitutiondaripashto.pdf Muxlim (talk) 02:15, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
==I could not find the word "Milli Surood" in the constitution could u please inform me of the page. Otherwise please remove the word as it does not exists. Thank you. == comment added by Spf108 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Well this is unbelievable it is totally obvious that the "Culture" part of this article is written by an IRANIAN.
"Many of the famous Persian poets of the tenth to fifteenth centuries stem from Khorasan where is now known as Afghanistan", is one example.
Are you OK? HOW can this be in the article, this should be removed... it is not correct to refer to IRAN. TO make it short everything which is positive is NOT EQUAL IRAN so avoid the linking please.
Waiting for correction.
Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.188.254.126 (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
If you click the article that says History of Afghanistan their is mention of Afghanistan's connection with the Indus Valley Civilization, which has to do with India. And in this article, and other articles, their is mention how Afghanistan has Aryan heritage. And has a history of Hinduism and Buddhism. Their are articles about Khandahar and maybe other places that have note how these cities may have some connectinos with something to do with India in temers of religion, ethnicity, and or culture. I mean some of this can be found here on WIkipeida then. But for some odd reason, their is little mention that Afghanistan has a ethnic and cultural connection with the history and culture of India? It doesn't make sense. I mean if it has all these ties that I have mentioned, doesn't that mean that Afghanistan has connections to the history and culture of India? I am not saying it was part of the country. Because in those days their were no boarders. But wasn't it apart of the local Aryan people? Before Islam werent many people Hindu and Buddhist then here water? So wouldn't it be easier to just say, that ancient Afghanistan has a connection to Ancient India? And before you say no, remmeber something, when you click history of Afghanitan it mention's the connection with the Indus Valley Civiliazation. So that is a connection with Ancient India isn't it? So would anyone object to me making some change's? 71.105.87.54 (talk) 04:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The article says that ISAF is composed of Nato- troops. However there are non-Nato participants also such as Finland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.143.220.156 (talk) 08:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
you forgot about Poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.201.221.2 (talk) 17:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
There are 43 countries in ISAF, including several non-NATO countries like Australia, Singapore, Finland, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Jordan, and United Arab Emirates. See the ISAF website: http://www.isaf.nato.int/en/troop-contributing-nations/index.php --Theboondocksaint (talk) 23:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I believe it would be standard to say, 600,000 and two million. I will likely change this, but please respond to this if you disagree.Fotoguzzi (talk) 04:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Changed it based on the rule of thumb that two words are spelled out and more than two are in numeral form.Fotoguzzi (talk) 06:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
There is a quote with five references: "She said, 'Accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.'" Unfortunately only a few of the references even refer to the quote, and none give any tangible details concerning the origin of the quote. I will soon tag these [not in citation given], but I will wait to see if others have comments. Thank you,Fotoguzzi (talk) 13:54, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
The alleged quote is hearsay at best. I've looked into this quote and the best I can come up with is that it originates from two french authors, Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie. The claim was apparently made during an interview with the two authors. I've been unable to track down a copy of this interview. Since this quote damages the reputation of a living person, and is poorly sourced, I feel that it should be removed. 213.255.229.99 (talk) 11:51, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree. I read this and was slightly skeptical given the conspiratorial tone of the writing.
I checked the sources. The Salon.com article references a July 2001 meeting with Ambassador Simons "another" person. The direct quote is: "Another participant reportedly said the Taliban's choice was clear: either accept a "carpet of gold" riches from the pipeline or "a carpet of bombs," meaning a military strike." As the caveat is "reportedly", we cannot decisively argue that this was said.
The Guardian article cites a BBC article where former Foreign Secretary Niak says a representative spoke of military action, but then cites Inter Press Services and substitutes "carpet of bombs" as the conversation, when in fact the subject and object of the sentence are not Niak, Rocca, or Ambassador Simons. Thus, this article cleverly tries to imply that Niak claimed that was said to him at the July 2001 meeting.
The CommonDreams aritcle (which I think we can all agree is not exactly the pinnacle of journalistic achievement nor an unbiased source) cites a book by two Frenchmen, Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, claiming that the quote was made. Though I acknowledge they are intelligence professionals (albeit in the private sector), they provide no sourcing. Moreover, they do not mention Rocca, Simons, or Niak.
The Centre for Research on Globalisation cites the same book by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie. This is circular citations.
The History Commons article just shows that Christina Rocca met with Taliban representatives in 2001. Nothing else.
Thus, I agree that it is heresay by two French Authors. None of the citations offer any more than that. I think it should be removed. --Theboondocksaint (talk) 23:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Please see updated sourcing of this information.
Thanks. Danieldis47 (talk) 13:29, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Note:
Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie are internationally recognized experts on intelligence and global terrorism. Briscard authored a study of the financial network of the Bin Laden organization for the French intelligence community which was published by the French National Assembly. He testified on his work before the US Congress Joint Inquiry into the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 and before the US Senate Banking Committee. He also provides training to the French authorities on terrorism and terrorism financing. 66.159.183.69 (talk) 18:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
The Asia Times article has nothing about Rocca and carpets. I believe the Asia Times citation should be pulled.
I do not have a copy of the book. There is a website that is obviously hostile to the book authors, but the website does purport to quote the book from the same page as the current wikipedia citation. The website claims the book claims the meeting took place in England in July 2001:
"[Niaz] Naik recounted that a US official had threatened, 'Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.'" - FORBIDDEN, pp. 42-43 http://emperors-clothes.com/letters/gold.htm
The same website offers this footnote to the page 42 quote:
"Testimony of Niaz Naik, former foreign Minster of Pakistan, obtained by Pierre Abramovici for a television program on the French channel France 3. Naik also repeated these allegations to the 'Guardian' newspaper in London, see 'Threat of US strikes passed to Taliban weeks before NY Attack,' Guardian, September 22, 2001. See also David Leigh's op-ed. 'Attack and Counter-attack...' Guardian, September 26, 2001." -- FORBIDDEN, p. 236
The Guardian articles http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/22/afghanistan.september113 and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/26/afghanistan.terrorism4 contain neither the word Rocca nor carpet. I have not found the France 3 footage. An interview date would have made this a bit easier.
The website (again, hostile to the authors) does not show Rocca's name attached to this quote. I believe the sentence needs to be pulled or altered.Fotoguzzi (talk) 12:09, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Based on additional (late night!) reading, I concur that the evidence for the Rocca statement is not clear enough. Thus, I will remove the sentence.
Regards - Danieldis47 (talk) 04:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, all for looking into this.Fotoguzzi (talk) 05:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Why in the world does it say "The Sikhs struck terror in the hearts of the Pashtuns" and "Despite the paucity of troops and the death of the valiant general, the terror of Hari Singh Nalwa’s name alone kept the entire army of the Kingdom of Kabul at bay for over a week"???
This has obviously been done by fanatical Sikh editors. This is an insult to Afghans and should be immediately removed. This must be done because it is simply not true and biased. Whoever put those sentences were cowards, and wikipedia must remove them and it should be done, unless wikipedia is run by Sikhs.
Pakhtunallmighty00 (talk) 00:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
howzabout some discussion of major non-drug crops, etc ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.248.248.11 (talk) 17:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
This edit: "Jrkso (talk | contribs) (129,033 bytes) (Some information updated) (undo)" removed signifiant sections of the article. It also replaced other sections/sentences (scattered throughout the article) with un-sourced material... With no explanations for the changes provided.
When I try to undo this major revision, I am told: "The edit could not be undone due to conflicting intermediate edits; if you wish to undo the change, it must be done manually."
Can anyone provide advice on how to restore the article?
Thanks!!Danieldis47 (talk) 15:15, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I seem to have figured it out - thanks! Danieldis47 (talk) 15:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
Good afternoon!
In line 76 of this article, you removed numerous sentences, all properly sourced, and gave no explanation.
In line 294, you removed entire paragraphs, all properly sourced, and gave no explanation.
In line 315, you removed virtually everything, and gave no explanation.
Many of your additions are un-sourced. Some, such as your claim that the Afghan National Army now has 10,000 soldiers, are obviously wrong.
Can you explain exactly what your are doing? Are you trying to add constructively to the article?
Thanks! Danieldis47 (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
In the absence of a response from you, I am going to undo your mass edits.
Be well,
Danieldis47 (talk) 00:22, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Could an Administrator please look at recent edits to this article and the concurrent discussion (above)? I am not sure how to proceed.
Thanks,
Danieldis47 (talk) 21:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
Could you explain on what grounds you deleted the following:
"The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) did not authorize the U.S.-led military campaign in Afghanistan (Operation Enduring Freedom).[2]"
Also, why does the article include no sources for your estimates of 100,000 Afghan soldiers and 81,000 police?
Thank you. Danieldis47 (talk) 00:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks!
Danieldis47 (talk) 14:55, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
Good morning!
Under the section "Police" you added/changed the bolded words:
Afghanistan currently has more than 90,000 national police officers, with plans to recruit more so that the total number can reach 160,000. They are being trained by and through the Afghanistan Police Program. In many areas in the past several years, crimes have gone uninvestigated because of insufficient police or lack of equipment. Afghan National Army soldiers have been sent to quell fighting in some regions lacking police protection.[3] Many of the police officers are illiterate due to the 30 years of civil unrest in the country. Approximately 17 percent of them test positive for illegal drugs. They are widely accused of demanding bribes, which is not surprising to see in most developing countries.[4]
As I noted when I tried to revert these edits, none of them are supported by the source provided. It's not clear where the ideas come from. Could you source them, or revert them?
Thanks.
Danieldis47 (talk) 13:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Those are NPOV statements by me as an editor, you don't need sources for that because the article makes it clear that Afghanistan has been in a state of war since 1979, that schools were destroyed since then, and most males were involved in a bloody civil war, and etc. I think you need to learn the rules of Wikipedia, you come here almost everyday write stuff in here as if Wikipedia is your personal blog. I travelled to a number of poor countries and bribery is a normal business. I don't understand why this surprises you. I find your edits biased, you only present the negative side.--Jrkso (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
Thanks for the response.
Per Wikipedia policies, my edits are statements of facts as found in reliable sources, which I provide for review. Are there specific edits I have made that you feel are biased? If so, please list them and explain (specifically) how and why you believe each one is biased. This would be helpful to all. Regarding your edits: Adding a conclusion that "the article makes clear" to you is certainly not "NPOV" -- the article may "make something else clear" to another editor, and so on, and so on, and we move further away from accuracy. Also, what you say you have learned in your travels is certainly your own research and does not belong in Wikipedia. For example, you claim that bribes are common in most developing countries. I ask: 1) According to what expert source? and 2) Why is what may or may not happens in other countries relevant to this article?
I again ask you to revert your edits.
Be well,
Danieldis47 (talk) 21:34, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Any thoughts from other editors about this discussion? Reasons that the edits described above should not be reverted?
Note: This is the source for the section under discussuion: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121559123&ps=cprs
Thanks - Danieldis47 (talk) 17:18, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
After I attempted to discuss this matter with you on this Talk page, and you failed to respond, I reverted your edits of the “Police” section (for reasons explained above).
Now you have re-inserted your language.
Your edits are un-sourced, POV and use original research (again, see above).
In addition to your edits, you write to me:
“Your edits are biased”
> Despite my requests, you again fail to provide any particulars for this claim of my ostensible “bias.” Which specific edits of mine are biased in what specific way? Absent that information, there is no way to respond to you on this topic.
“You are only focusing on the negative side.”
> I stick to the facts as closely as I can. They speak for themselves. Of course, you are always free to add properly sourced information that you believe to be “less negative.”
“Why don't you mention the number Afghan police that are killed every year in line of duty? There is no mention of any of that.”
> No one editor can be comprehensive. Of course, you can always add this and any other information, following Wikipedia guidelines.
“You have to change the way you edit”
> I don’t think you’ve established a basis for this demand.
“And why do you sign your name different from everyone else?”
> I honestly don’t know what this means.
I have no desire to engage in an editing war.
Yet you persist in making edits that diminish the quality and accuracy of this article.
Can any other editors/Administrators provide assistance here?
Thanks.
Danieldis47 (talk) 03:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
You have added this un-sourced statement to the "Police" section:
"Every year many Afghan police officers are killed by militants, and in some cases by NATO forces due to friendly fire incidents."
"Wikipedia:How to Edit a page" states: "If you add information to a page, please provide references, as unreferenced facts are subject to removal." (at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page)
Per Wikipedia rules, please provide references for your addition or remove it.
Thanks,
Danieldis47 (talk) 18:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
The CIA World Factbook is used as a source. So when you use it, make sure the proper language titles are used:
Afghan Persian, NOT Persian
I get the feeling there are some Iranians / Persian descendents on here not writing the correct info.
It is AFGHAN PERSIAN, NOT Persian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.65.115.196 (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
The following sentences under "Government and politics" were deleted due to bad links. I have fixed the links, so the sentences can now be returned to the article.
The sentences are below (in italics) with corrected links:
In November, 2009, Afghanistan slipped three places in Transparency International's annual index of corruption perceptions, becoming the world's second most-corrupt country ahead of Somalia.[5]
In January, 2010, President Karzai reinstated Gen. Abdul Rashid Dostum to a top army post despite Western demands for sweeping reform. Dostum is among Afghanistan's most notorious warlords, accused of widespread abuses including the massacre of thousands of Taliban prisoners.[6][7]
Thanks,
Danieldis47 (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
There is certainly no need to disambiguate the nation of Afghanistan and a cartoon of similar name. To put it charitably, the "Afghanis-tan" disambiguation link does nothing more than promote the cartoon, and in an inappropriate place. To put it rather uncharitably, it seems that over-active manga fans or a wall-banging script have defaced this article.
I'd like to remove the disambiguation.
Haakondahl (talk) 05:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danieldis47 (talk • contribs)
Under the topic "War in Afghanistan 2001-present", it is stated "The U.S. military also threatened to overthrow the Taliban government for refusing to hand over Osama bin Laden and several Al-Qaeda members." I believe this statement needs qualifiers because Taliban agreed to hand over Osama bin Laden in October of 2001 as reported by "The Guardian" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/17/afghanistan.terrorism11 . The Taliban also came very close to handing over Osama bin Laden in 1998 also reported by "The Guardian" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/05/afghanistan.terrorism3
Therefore the statement that U.S. overthrew Taliban for refusing to hand over Osama bin Laden is incorrect and needs modifying. Or at the very least the statement needs verifiable citation for the supposed Taliban's refusal. I believe addition of the fact that Taliban agreed to hand over Osama bin Laden is crucial in fully appreciating the fact that American geopolitical interest in the current war is not just dismantling Al-Qaeda network but also Taliban government. 24.190.6.199 (talk) 05:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Do you have any way to varify that the "American geopolitical interest" is that? Sounds pretty assumptive of you. Cheers Netsquall (talk) 18:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
You went ahead and again deleted sourced, significant info about the Afghan election without reasonable cause.
You write, "Danieldis47, Abdullah said that but others are saying that he realized he had no chance to win from Karzai and decided to quit, let's not go into this"
What "others?" What are your sources? Can you share them with us?
Until you do, please do not make deletions that certainly appear to be POV (that is, you don't seem to want readers to know why Abdullah says he quit...).
(I reverted the edit)
Thanks,
Danieldis47 (talk) 20:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello, someone needs to flag this entire section for its neutrality. I'm new to wikipedia and was very shocked at how one-sided this part of the article is. Personally, I feel it should be removed and completely re-written within the confines of Wikipedias standards. It completely attacks one side of the view.
I cannot flag it for neutrality probably because I'm too new. Someone needs to now. Netsquall (talk) 18:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Adding that there is currently a perfectly good article on the Afghanistan War 2001-Present. Being a newbie here I don't know how to link it. Perhaps, instead of making an entire large article on the country of Afghanistan a minor summary should be made, and the rest be placed in this article? It seems redundant otherwise, and due to the current inflamed edits/re-edits I feel this is probably the best solution, no? Netsquall (talk) 18:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Netsquall,
I urge you to add information to the section so that you no longer feel that it is one-sided.
Thanks,
Danieldis47 (talk) 23:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
If you believe Netsquall is right, then I encourage you as well to add information to the section so that you no longer feel that it is one-sided. In short -- do the work.
I am not clear about what criteria you are using to determine the correct length of articles and their sections. Could you share it? I am also not clear on why you have focused on one or two sections in the article for your "shortenings." Do you plan to delete content from the other 14 or 15 sections as well? If so, on what basis?
Be well,
Danieldis47 (talk) 21:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Danieldis47, you are trying to defend your biased position by claiming they are facts. They are most certainly facts, and are most certainly sourced. Just because they are facts, does not mean they are unbiased. Telling others to do the legwork and locate 'less negative' source material is a very weak defense. A good editor would do it themselves, or alternatively avoid writing it at all. Please explain to how this section is good, or within Wikipedias standards when the first sentence begins with "The United Nations did not authorize the invasion of Afghanistan". Please explain how this is even relavant to the country of Afghanistan as a whole. We know that the invasion and current events certainly play into Afghanistans history and are very relavant, but the facts behind how it came to pass should be, and in fact ARE in one of many other articles on the topic. They DO NOT belong in the primary article about the country of Afghanistan. This doesn't mean they are not relavant facts, merely they are in the incorrect place.Netsquall (talk) 18:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Since I cannot make edits myself due to lack of registered time, I urge the editors that can to make an appeal to flag this section for its neutrality, or refer these inflamed parts to the correct article. Should the editors not do this, an administrator should get involved. This is atrocious otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Netsquall (talk • contribs) 18:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
In the "Government and politics" section of this article, you just deleted content (see below) in order, you write, to "shorten" the article.
In doing so, you eliminated significant, well-sourced information.
I ask:
1) There are many ways to edit writing to make it briefer without changing its content and meaning. Why did you not edit in such a manner?
2) How did you choose which content you would delete in the name of "brevity?" Your edits seem clearly to change the meaning of the sourced content.
3) You wrote, "... this article is about Afghanistan so keep this as short as possible." How do you decide the correct length of articles and article sections? Is not the state of the Afghan government a topic appropriate for the "Afghanistan" article?
I am concerned about these deletions (deleted text in bold):
"The 2009 presidential election in Afghanistan was characterized by lack of security, low voter turnout and widespread ballot stuffing, intimidation, and other electoral fraud. The vote, along with elections for 420 provincial council seats, took place on August 20, 2009, but remained unresolved during a lengthy period of vote counting and fraud investigation. Two months later, under heavy U.S. and ally pressure, a second round run-off vote between incumbent President Hamid Karzai and his main rival Abdullah Abdullah was announced for November 7, 2009. On November 1, however, Abdullah announced that he would no longer be participating in the run-off because his demands for changes in the electoral commission had not been met, and a "transparent election is not possible." A day later, on November 2, 2009, officials of the election commission cancelled the run-off and declared Hamid Karzai as President of Afghanistan for another 5 year term."
Thanks,
Danieldis47 (talk) 21:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Jrkso,
Your point about copyright is a good one and something I can pay more attention to. Thanks for that.
I don't understand why you say that the well-sourced information is "meaningless." What do you mean?
At your suggestion, I will take a look at other articles about countries.
I would think that any reader who reads that the challenger to the president in an election quit the race would naturally expect some explanation of why that signifiacnt event happened. (BTW: I have not heard/read anything about lack of funds being a factor. Do you have a source(s) related to that suggestion? Thanks.)
I agree that, in this case, the types of fraud can reasonably be summarized as "election fraud."
Take care,
Danieldis47 (talk) 11:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I've never actually completed a 'formal dispute process' before, but I'll certainly try my best. I also agree that a few more editors are definitely needed on this matter. More than one or two (or three for that matter) editors should review this article in its entirety.
Problem 1, this section is lead into immediately with this: "One day before the September 11 attacks in 2001, on September 10, the George W. Bush administration agreed on a plan to oust the Taliban regime in Afghanistan by force if it refused to hand over Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.[72]" It is normal policy for an administration to discuss these types of topics. The editor by applying this as the first comment on the section gives the impression of bias right off the bat. The article quoted for source material itself states "The report pointed out that agreement on the plan, which involved a steady escalation of pressure over three years, had been repeatedly put off by the Clinton and Bush administrations, despite the repeated failure of attempts to use diplomatic and economic pressure." -- if you are going to quote source material from an unbiased source (the entire article doesn't focus on the Bush administration but also on the failures of the Clinton administration to pressure the Taliban during the USS Cole bombing crisis) the editor needs to make sure this information is included. This leads into problem #2. Why does this quote belong here, in an article about Afghanistan as a country? It has no relevance to the topic and should be discussed further under the primary article War in Afghanistan (2001–present). There is no way to make this comment unbiased and neutral without explaining furtherly why the United States lead coalition invaded. All of this detracts from the primary subject matter of the article (Afghanistan as a country) and leads into the section very jarringly.
Problem 2 "Many noted that of the 19 men who hijacked planes on September 11, none were Afghans (fifteen of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon).[73] None lived in Afghanistan (they lived in Hamburg). None trained in Afghanistan (they trained in Florida). None went to flight school in Afghanistan (that training occurred in Minnesota).[74]" Wonderfully sourced material, but completely irrelevant to the topic at hand once more. This implies to the uneducated reader that the United States invaded the country with no reason because the terrorists were trained in the United States. Blatant POV bias. It fails to point out that the ringleader did get training in Afghanistan. Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article656440.ece). It once again has no place in an article about the country of Afghanistan as it doesn't further the subject, focusing instead on something completely different (a controversy on the initial invasion, which should be discussed in another, completely different article.)
Problem 3 "The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) did not authorize the U.S.-led military campaign in Afghanistan.[75]" The editors sourcing here doesn't help much. When you click the source link you're slapped with a massive essay. Quoting the essay, "this article discusses the issue of state-sponsored terrorism and the use of military force in combating terrorism in the context of the UN Charter regime on the use of force."... you'd need to spend hours to find what the editor is trying to use as source material. My suggestion here is to find better source material. The next problem with this statement is it is once again biased and irrelevant to the total article on the country of Afghanistan OTHER than to put blame on the United States for invading the country in the first place. While this comment might be true, it isn't balanced by, for example, explaining how many countries supported the United States in its efforts in Afghanistan either by financial or military means. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force). Once more, to properly balance this section you would further inflate it, and detract from the primary goal of the article as an overview of the country as a whole.
These are the primary three parts that truly show biased POV. There are many other parts, for example "In early December, 2009, the Taliban offered to give the U.S. "legal guarantees" that they will not allow Afghanistan to be used for attacks on other countries. There was no formal American response.[89]", which is quite relevant but once again biased with nothing to show the other side of the story.
In closing, this entire section, I feel, should be rewritten. I do not have the time, or the know-how to do so, but certainly feel it to be biased as it stands. An expert on the subject should review this. Netsquall (talk) 04:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I suggest we limit the section on War in Afghanistan 2001–present to a set number of paragraphs. I believe this will solve issues of wp:npov which are driven by wp:recentism. Please comment agree or diasagree below. I suggest it should be three paragraphs. If you believe it should be another number (for example four) please state so. If you disagree with setting a fixed number of paragraphs, state so as well. After we agree on the number of paragraphs, we can then agree on the wording for each paragraph. I'll show agreement with my own proposal to indicate the preferred format of response:
Jrkso,
I would like to think that you are editing in good faith - but you make it hard! You seem to just pull ideas out of your head, delete well-sourced facts (repeatedly), and replace them with your personal concoctions - sources be damned.
Latest of many examples (for more, see Talk page, above):
You have now decided that the Taliban killed Sitara Achakzai, so you just plopped that into the article in the "Government and Politics" section. You provide no sources for this "new discovery", no explanation. You just went for it (adding bolded words, below):
"Women in public life in many parts of the country are subject to routine threats and intimidation, according to a December, 2009 report by Human Rights Watch. Several high profile women have been assassinated, but their killers have not been brought to justice. When Sitara Achakzai, an outspoken and courageous human rights defender and politician, was murdered by the Taliban in April 2009, her death was seen as another warning to all women who are active in public life."
Do you honestly believe that you are contributing in a worthwhile way to Wikipedia with these methods? You seem to be intent not so much on re-writing the article, but on trying to re-write history itself. No sources, no explanations, no sense.
And it gets worse. On the edit page, where you again deleted facts, you seem to be explaining a deletion with this comment: 'Danieldis47, such a statement ... a "transparent election is not possible." is POV ... how can that not be possible?)"
Man - It's a quote from the candidate himself. It's HIS explanation for why he quit (not mine). That's why it is in quotes. Would you delete an excerpt from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address on Lincoln's page because it's his point of view (POV)?
I am entirely frustrated here.
I suggest we seek third-party mediation.
Danieldis47 (talk) 02:16, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
FYI -
I went ahead and formally asked for a third opinion.
Danieldis47 (talk) 16:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Danieldis47, you are not innocent in this argument. All of your information, while sourced, is focused too much on one side, or another. I will not argue which side you stand on as this is irrelavant, it is the fact you are not putting a neutral point of view in the article. Nor is Jrsko for that matter. I am glad you've applied for third party review, but do not claim innocence in this matter. Netsquall (talk) 18:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Netsquall,
Thanks for your feedback.
The truth is - for every fact I add to the article that you might view as "negative," there are at least a dozen that I don't add (no need to...) If you become knowledgeable about the present government of Afghanistan, and its army, and its police, you will quickly learn that the overwhelming consensus among unbiased experts is that all three are shot through with corruption and incompetence. You might not like these facts, but facts they are. I must assume that this reality is why you and others have not added what you would consider "positive" (but still sourced) info to the article (as I suggested to you) - you can not find it.
Indeed - if these genuine "positive" stories do exist, I would love to read them and see them as part of the article and be happy for the people of Afghanistan.
It is not "biased" to describe the truth.
Nor is it "neutral" to deny, or to delete, the truth.
ALSO,
I see you have flagged the "War in Afghanistan 2001–present" section for neutrality.
According to Wikipedia guidelines (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOVD#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F), this is what you are supposed to do now:
"Then, on the article's talk page, make a new section entitled "NPOV dispute [- followed by a section's name if you're challenging just a particular section of the article and not the article as a whole]". Then, under this new section, clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why. Make some suggestions as to how one can improve the article. Be active and bold in improving the article."
Thanks,
Danieldis47 (talk) 20:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Danieldis47, I appreciate where you come from on this. I make no denial that many of what you have applied to this article is truth. As you have noted, I will most certainly engage in this discussion. Unfortunately I'm at work right now and cannot focus enough time on the matter. However, it HAS to be noted that there is most certainly neutrality problems IN THAT SECTION ONLY. The remainder of your concerns and those of jrsko I'm not privy to, only the very blatant POV about the bush administrations decision to invade Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11, the fact that the hijackers were not Afghan, etc. These are all facts yes, but are facts applied to further an argument, thus are point of view and neutrality problems. I'll be happy to elaborate later.Netsquall (talk) 21:02, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
"You have now decided that the Taliban killed Sitara Achakzai, so you just plopped that into the article in the "Government and Politics" section. You provide no sources for this "new discovery", no explanation."
There is plenty of sources that the Taliban claimed responsability. The Huffington Post was the first that popped up on Google. Also, the Wikipedia page on her states repeatedly this, including quotes from The Gov Gen of Canada. He was well within his right to add that piece. This is yet another mark showing your biasedness.Netsquall (talk) 22:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Netsquill,
Greetings!
Are you going to complete the formal NPOV dispute process you started for the "War" section, as prescribed by Wikipedia? Or should we remove the tag you placed?
(Actually, I am a bit confused. Your comment when you added the NPOV tag referred to an "edit war." I am not aware of any contested edits at all in this section of the article. What edits and "edit war" are you referring to?)
As for your most recent accusations under the "Government and politics" section - I thought you had already agreed with me that the formal third-party approach (which I have started) was best. So why the new attacks?
(BTW - I'm fairly sure there is no word "biasedness"...)
In any event: Jrkso (per his style, apparently) provided no sources, references, or explanations when he made his addition regarding the Taliban and murder. That would seem to violate both the rules and spirit of Wikipedia. Now you/Jrkso are making after-the-fact explanations. Why did you wait until now? Yet even these are explanations appear weak: 1) You provide no actual links to the sources you describe; and 2) Even then, you just state that the Taliban claimed they killed Achakzai -- yet somehow, this distinction didn't make it into your un-sourced addition to the article. Hmmm...
Look - For all I know, the Taliban did kill her. But such claims, about murder and all, should be well-documented, wouldn't you agree?
So why don't we call a truce on the accusations and wait for the third-party process in these matters. That would seem like the most civil approach.
Take care,
Danieldis47 (talk) 23:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
Hi. I'm no expert in the field, have never edited this article, and am just here to help. Strictly speaking, you don't need a "third opinion" because more then two editors are involved in the discussion. But I'm happy to provide a 4th opinion.—Work permit (talk) 04:22, 25 February 2010 (UTC) |
Regarding this last edit by JRSKO , I agree it should be sourced. I suspect the right wording is "suspected of being murdered by the taliban" or "some claim murdered by the taliban". Regarding the election, the right wording (from what I gather from the sources) is "because his demands for changes in the electoral commission had not been met, and claiming a transparent election would not be possible." But these are just minor issues. There are far more significant issues with this article.
I think the sections on recent events are way too long, and are an extreme case of wp:recentism. If you haven't read wp:recentism, please do so. From the lede, Ahmad Shah Durrani created the Durrani Empire in 1747, which is considered the beginning of modern Afghanistan. Its capital was shifted in 1776 from Kandahar to Kabul and most of its territories ceded to neighboring empires. To put this article and these recent events in perspective, look at the article United States, a country founded at roughly the same time. Clearly sections on Government and politics should be cut in half,with recent history a paragraph. The section on War in Afghanistan 2001–present should be a paragraph or two (three would be a stretch). I think by cutting recent history to a minimum, you can solve a lot of problems. Less is more. Let the main articles on recent events address the details. If editors agree, I suggest we create a discussion on one of these sections (for example, Government and politics). Clearly Danieldis47, JRSKO, are quite knowledgeable about Afghanistan. Clearly working together we can create a great article.
I can add more specific observations, but I think I'd like to first hear from others.--Work permit (talk) 04:22, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I think other sections need trimming as well. It may be helpful to work together on another section first. For example, Soviet invasion and civil war. To be generous, it should be 4 paragraphs max. I would suggest: 1st paragraph They came. 2nd paragraph They fought. 3rd paragraph They left. 4th paragraph The aftermath. --Work permit (talk) 04:42, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
“ | We were equally distressed to learn of the assassination of Sitara Achakzai, a courageous and proud activist for the rights of her countrywomen, who was gunned down at point-blank range. The Taliban were quick to claim responsibility for this unprecedented violence, fiercely dedicated to hindering all efforts to further development and stability in Afghanistan. | ” |
I've outlined three paragraph section for the War in Afghanistan 2001–present. The outline is at User:Work permit/sandbox The wording definetly needs some tweaks, the first two paragraphs needs sources. But I thought it could be a good base to start discussion. Is there anything significant that has been missed, or anything in there that doesn't belong?--Work permit (talk) 01:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I've added statements on the ISAF. If other editors could find references for the sentences, and of course tweak the wording or fix any errors, it would be much appreciated.--Work permit (talk) 03:30, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I've added a bit more, please give it a read if you like it. Should we be looking at applying this to the article now? Netsquall (talk) 22:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Please don't start an editing war. You are putting the disputed tag next to the points which already have a reference. I can see that you cannot find the exact paragraphs in the references I provide, so let me quote them all for you.
For the point "Samanids of Balkh", I provided the reference Kamoliddin, Shamsiddin S. "To the Question of the Origin of the Samanids", Transoxiana: Journal Libre de Estudios Orientales, and it clearly states: "The family name of the Samanid dynasty was connected with the name or title of the ancestor - Saman-khudat, who was a founder and owner of the settlement named Saman, situated, according to sources, in the region of Balkh".
For the next point which you put a disputed tag is the argument that "the periods of Ghaznavids and Timurids were some of the brilliant eras of Afghanistan's history". The reference to Ghaznavids is the following source (Ghaznavid Dynasty, 962 - 1186 CE, Iran Chamber Society, ) which says "Ghazni, Centre of the Islamic civilization: Ghazni played a centre role politically and culturally in Islamic civilization. Until then unknown and insignificant, it became one of the most brilliant capitals of the Islamic world. The Ghaznavids carried the Central Asian architectural style to the eastern part of their empire. In Bukhara, Merv and other places on the left bank of the Oxus, from Charjuy to Sarakhs, one could still find some anonymous tombs of brick with the dates falling within the Ghaznavid period. Great mosques and sumptuous palaces, surrounded by carefully rendered gardens, rose to be adorned with the gold and gems of India. Here the era's most illustrious poets, artists, architects, philosophers (Ibn Sina was born in Balkh in 1080 CE), musicians, historians, artists and craftsmen gathered under the keen patronage of the court.
As for the Timurid era, it is even mentioned in the same reference that you yourself have provided i.e. John Ford Shroder, University of Nebraska. . It says "The period from the Ghurid through the Timurid dynasty produced fine Islamic architectural monuments. Many of these mosques, shrines, and minarets still stand in Herāt, Qal‘eh-ye Bost, Ghaznī, and Mazār-e Sharīf. An important school of miniature painting flourished at Herāt in the 15th century.".
I also provided three other references to the books written by well-known Afghan scholars. If you cannot verify them because you do not have those books, then that's another issue. We don't have to always provide online references. You can go buy those books and check them by yourself. But the references are reliable and accurate. Now please stop putting the disputed tag next to the arguments which are already supported by the sources/reference.Ariana (talk) 09:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 16:46, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
My reply to User:Tajik:
The Iranica article states: Arachosia, province in the eastern part of the Achaemenid empire around modern Kandahār, which was inhabited by the Iranian Arachosians or Arachoti. Aryan is an English language loanword denoting variously
Why are you removing them from the list? There are many sources which states that Arachosians lived in the Afghanistan region in ancient time. See the map it also shows it. Ahmed shahi (talk) 14:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I have tagged this article because:
Tajik (talk) 16:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
My defense to this:
Ahmed shahi (talk) 00:55, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted an unexplained and misleading edit by User:Ahmed shahi: a) the Safavids were not Persians, b) the Persian were not "invaders" but are - in the form of the Tajiks and Farsiwans (and even Hazaras) - natives of the region ("Tajik" is just another word for "Persian"), c) the Hotaki dynasty was neither powerful nor important, their reign was very short. The case of the Abdalis/Durranis is different for they created a powerful Empire. Tajik (talk) 19:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 01:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Once again, I'm not concerned about ethnics or linguistics, and what do you mean by "region"? This article is only about Afghanistan but region may include neighboring states. Who are these Persians that ruled Afghanistan for 1000 years? The first Persians who invaded Afghanistan was the Achaemenids and they were crushed by Alexander the Great in around 330 BC. After that many different non-Persians ruled Afghanistan. How is Aryan nation pseudo-scientific and unsourced nonsense? There is an article written about Ariana, which states: Ariana... was a region of the eastern countries of ancient Persia, next to the Indian subcontinent,[3] included in present-day Iran, Afghanistan, and northwest Pakistan.[4]... Ahmed shahi (talk) 00:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 00:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 07:40, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
{{editprotected}} afghanistan population <is 37,500,000 - SFN Statistics- End request --> Sfn100 (talk) 00:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
It says under Republic of Afghanistan that the PDPA moved to permit freedom of religion, but actually Once in power, the PDPA implemented a socialist agenda. It moved to promote state atheism. (http://www.vfw.org/resources/levelxmagazine/0203_Soviet-Afghan%20War.pdf The Soviet-Afghan War:Breaking the Hammer & Sickle) Men were obliged to cut beards, women were banned from wearing the burqa, and mosques were placed off limits. Can someone fix it up?--Userofsite1 (talk) 12:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I think the point is not weather it banned beard or not. The point is "PDPA moved to permit freedom of religion" which is not quite accurate. Even prior to the PDPA, Sikhs and Hindus were free to practice their religion. PDPA did not make any primary initiation for the freedom of religion in Afghanistan, nor did it issue a new law on freedom of religion. Ariana (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The current protected version is biased, which removes from the introduction the names of the famous empires that were centered in Afghanistan (Saffarids of Zaranj, Samanids of Balkh, Ghaznavids of Ghazni, Ghurids of Ghor, Timurids of Herat, Mughals of Kabul, Hotakis of Kandahar, Durranis of Kandahar). This information is very important to mention in the lead intro because it is what makes Afghanistan unique and stand out in the region but the nationalistic editors removed these empires because it bothers them to know that all these kingdoms had their capitals inside Afghanistan instead of Iran. They want to push their Iranian view point by trying to write that Afghanistan's history starts with the creation of the Durrani Empire in 1747, and anything before that is not really important to mention in the Afghanistan article, and that it should only be mentioned in Iran's or Persia's history.
These Iranian nationalists and POV editors get very angry when you remind them that Iran was created as a nation state in 1935, they all quickly respond by saying things like "no, no, no, that's untrue, Iran existed for many many thousands of years", but there isn't a single reliable source which mentions a country called Iran before 1935. All the famous conquerers who conquered Persia, from Alexander the Great in 331 BC to the British in the 1900s, not one of them reported of any Iran country. These nationalist Iranians need to be reasonable and stop trying to fool us because we're no fools. They also removed Hotaki dynasty from this line in the history section of Afghanistan ("On the other hand, native entities such as the Kushans, Samanids, Saffarids, Ghaznavids, Ghurids, Timurids, Mughals, Durranis and others have risen to power in what is now Afghanistan and invaded the surrounding regions to form own empires."). The reason for this is purely hate, because the Hotaki dynasty destroyed the Iranian Persian Empire in 1722 and naturally Iranians don't like to even see Hotaki name being mentioned any where in the article. This kind of behavior by these nationalists is giving Wikipedia reputation as a very unreliable source and causing alot of edit-wars.
I wish the administrators revert the current biased version because it's missing the important information from the introduction, and has a removal of the well documented native Afghan Kingdom (Hotaki dynasty) that destroyed the Persian Empire (Safavid dynasty) in 1722. Thanks,Ahmed shahi (talk) 01:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
You're making me jump from one thing to another, try to relax a bit and focus on one issue at a time. Ahmed shahi (talk) 14:08, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 02:49, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
There are other sources which say the same. Ahmed shahi (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 22:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 09:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
“ | tajiks An ethnic minority group migrated from former Russian Turkestan, ethnically and linguistically Persian, residing north of the Hindu Kush and around Kabul. | ” |
“ | uzbeg/uzbek A minority ethnic group migrated from former Russian Turkestan, mainly inhabiting the northern areas. | ” |
“ | hazaras A non-Afghan minority ethnic group living in Afghanistan: racially Mongoloid, Shi'ite Muslim in religion; mainly inhabit the Hindu Kush. | ” |
Ahmed shahi (talk) 04:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 12:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahmed shahi (talk) 18:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
“ | tajiks An ethnic minority group migrated from former Russian Turkestan, ethnically and linguistically Persian, residing north of the Hindu Kush and around Kabul. | ” |
Ahmed shahi (talk) 00:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
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