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I don't know the history of this very well, but when astrology began, many ages ago, weren't all the heavenly bodies (stars and planets), except the sun and moon, called "stars" and considered to be the same thing? If that's the case, it should be explained that the word "stars" is being used in a very general manner, and not specifically for what we now (since the 2006 redefining of "planets") consider "stars". -- Brangifer (talk) 21:36, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Excellent new introduction, folks. Up next: redefining chemistry as "a material science founded on the notions of Egyptian alchemy", and introducing Medicine as "the science and art of healing, which traces back to the suspicion that your poop makes you depressed." (Humorism is not to be confused with WP:HUMOR, even if my reference to the former qualifies as a fine example of the latter. *G*) Anyway, we'll save the easiest work for last; we won't have any problems defining the universe in etiological terms, because we all know exactly Who came up with the idea, and we all can agree on what was on His mind back then (hehehehe). Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
"Some see astrology as predictive, with the planets controlling human destiny; others see it as determinative, with the planets determining our personalities and who we are." —That's not really what those words mean. The first would be "determinative"; I can't think of the proper word for the second. — kwami (talk) 20:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Is this the discussion that is supposed to be continued, because it didn't get folded up and therefore conforms to "policy, guideline or source-based reason to continue this discussion"? It's not just the appalling ignorance of the vast history and literature of astrology that is very troubling about the Wikipedia article and discussion, but the patronizing and irrational vehemence against it that infects the article and is the much accepted mode of discussion. Why is this? Doesn't anyone else see this as a recipe for extreme misrepresentation and the intellectual disaster the article has become? Apagogeron (talk) 01:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The Wikipedia Astrology article is riddled with straw man arguments and authoritarian decrees and the Talk page is filled with silly discussions over these rational fallacies. Editors should remove these fallacies.
Astrology is a very old discipline and unfortunately it has outgrown, and is now misrepresented by, some of its own language. In a similar way, the branch of astrology that became meteorology is a misrepresentation because it is not the study of meteors, but rather of weather. The use of ancient terminology leads people who are ignorant of astrology, or people who are just deviant literalists, to accuse astrology of having pseudoscientific claims. For these people to set up these terms as straw men and require astrologers to defend the literal meanings is a fallacy that violates the rational criterion of relevance.
The study of astrology connects the modern world with ancient traditions. The word "astrology" derives from "star" but astrologers will study whatever celestial bodies they wish to study, just like the meteorologists are not confined to the study of meteors to forecast weather. That astrology must only study "stars" is irrelevant and to argue over this is silly and irrational.
To insist that astrology is a pre-Copernican view that equates to belief in a flat Earth, is ignorant. Astrology uses a relativistic frame of reference that no scientist would argue with. It maps the celestial bodies relative to the person or thing to be studied, which is placed at the center, and this is neither the Sun nor the Earth. What we know as stars have always been stars. All other bodies in the solar system, including the Sun and Moon, are considered to be, for want of a better word, "planets" of the person or subject to be studied because these bodies all move in some interesting fashion around the subject, which is at the center.
Imagine now that you are at the center of your own universe and the planets and stars around you are your planets and your stars, because this is your universe. If you think this sounds New Age, then you've come to the right place. This "new" point of view is also very ancient. To say that astrology is Earth-centered, or must not call the Sun and Moon planets, is a straw man designed to start a silly, irrational argument.
The same goes for the difference between the signs and some of the constellations that have the same names. Astrologers have known about this and made their choice more than 2000 years ago. Signs are measured from the vernal point and are unrelated to the starry constellations. To confuse signs with constellations because of the similarity in names is silly and irrational.
Planetary or stellar "influence" is not a causal effect emanating from the planets and stars that astrologers directly measure. Everyone knows that the meanings in astrology are inferred from empirical observations, despite the mechanical implications of word "influence." Similarly, in some new sciences ordinary words fail or are used metaphorically and even whimsically. To argue over the semantics of this is silly and irrational.
The "symbolic language" of astrology is not a mystery or ambiguous. It has followed the same development that any syntactical representation of symbols such as used in chemistry, mathematics, or any written language uses and the results can be seen and understood in any astrology text. To argue over the analysis of "symbols" or the speaker of a "language" with regard to astrology is a straw man and is silly and irrational.
Astrological "rulership" does not mean that the planets manipulate people by remote control. "Rulership" may not be the best word, but it is the tradition and astrologers know what it means. It is a non-judgmental observation of one property or thing regarded as a set that typically indicates the presence of other properties or things as members, often theorized as a correlation. To argue over the literal meaning of “rulership” is silly and irrational.
These are all straw man and red herring fallacies and editors should not be drawn into semantic arguments and silly, irrational debates over them.
Throughout the Wikipedia astrology article, astrology is conceptually misrepresented as being some sort of "alternative" to science, as an absolutist, black and white, either-or situation of conflicting paradigms battling for scientific supremacy. This is not the case. Like other disciplines adopted by New Age thinkers, astrology is "complementary." It fills in the voids left by conventional, more scientific approaches, which are nonetheless necessary for healthy living and informed perspectives.To characterize modern science and astrology as adversarial is again a straw man designed to start a silly irrational argument.
Over the course of history, astrology has had its own reforms and revolutions in thought. Paracelsus understood astrology as a question of "correlations" between macroscopic and microscopic worlds rather than direct physical influences, because no causal connections could be determined. This was a radical theory at the time, but gradually the idea of non-causal correlations became adopted. Francis Bacon added to this with his suggestion that the stars "rather incline than compel." This represented a puzzle for astrologers and scientists interested in astrology to figure out and evaluate. The methods by which correlational effects can be mathematically measured and weighed to show inclinations is relatively new in astrology, and have been statistically demonstrated in falsifiable tests only within the past 30 years.
The Science section of the article is filled with a succession of the subjective beliefs of one scientist after another, from al-Farabi to Neil deGrasse Tyson. It directly emulates the controversial 1975 Humanist "Objections to Astrology" article signed by 186 leading scientists. Astronomer Carl Sagan objected to the "Objections" article because the scientists argued solely on the basis of their own authority and this gives the impression of closed mindedness. Physicist Paul Feyerabend compared the “Objections” article to the Malleus Maleficarum, which launched the Inquisition, only he regarded it as being worse.
These claims by notable scientists against astrology that Wikipedia has listed are more of the same thing. They are not scientific at all, but are arguments from authority and arguments from ignorance by people who have not studied astrology and have no idea what they are talking about. Editors should be mindful of these fallacies and allow only factual objective information where science is concerned.
To declare that astrology is a pseudoscience from the outset is detrimental to legitimate scientists who may wish to investigate it. Scientists have a right to study and test whatever they want and to challenge other scientists based on their evaluations and discoveries. Because of recent empirical assessments, in particular the reversal of the renowned 1985 Shawn Carlson study, which in 2009 was found to support astrology, and improved methods of ranking and rating data, there is an expectation of further scientific advances in astrology.
No one, least of all astrologers, expects all of astrology to be amenable to scientific evaluation. For example, there has been a lively proliferation and discourse of psychological theories among astrologers, such as those postulated by Carl Jung. Yet only a few of these theories may ever be scientifically evaluated. The theories of astrology are complex and its practice requires intuition to deal with the combination of many variables. For these reasons and others, such as the scarcity of accurate data and the lack of funding, astrology has not been easy to scientifically investigate. Apagogeron (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Mystylplx - You are correct, astrological claims are of course falsifiable. Which would you consider to be the best three studies where astrology has failed? If you can't find three, one solid and persuasive test that you feel will back up your claims will do, but please no long list or a link. I am referring to scientific tests rather than anecdotal tales, magic tricks, sun sign tests or tests with a sample size that is so small to enable random results. Robertcurrey (talk) 17:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Mystylplx for responding. If your sun sign test is the best example you can provide, you reaffirm the point that there are no valid scientific studies where astrology has failed. I asked for a test that was not flawed or based on sun signs alone. I can only assume that you could not find such a test or you don’t know the difference between astrology as a field and sun sign astrology which is a quasi-astrology originating from the 1930s that people read in the daily newspapers. If you don’t know the difference, consider studying astrology before commenting or attempting to edit this page.
There are many problems with sun sign testing (which is based on the estimated sun sign from the date of birth only), besides the fact that it is not testing astrology. With your example the claims of sun sign compatibility come from sun sign columns and books. However, astrologers analyze compatibility by a series of factors and for example place more emphasis on Venus, Mars, the Moon, the Ascendant and other planets ahead of the Sun in this context. The Sachs test that you cited actually claimed many significant findings based on sun sign data – however like most of these type of tests, it has serious sampling errors and needs a full re-analysis. It is not held up as evidence for astrology by astrologers and given the flaws should not be used by sceptics. All sun sign tests risk self-fulfilment and have to eliminate any direct questions from which the subject might guess were connected with his or her sign. This was confirmed by the Mayo-Eysenck test (1978).
I have asked you to substantiate your claim of hundreds of tests where astrology has failed. Please provide me with one as requested before. I doubt that you can as I asked Dr Dean (who you cited) and he was unable to do so. If you are not able to do so, I would suggest that before you make any other comments on this page, you retract your statement. Already your (as yet) unsupported claim and this misinformed reply put your credibility as an authoritative source on astrology into serious question. Robertcurrey (talk) 23:22, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Notice most of these are not "just" sun sign studies. Mystylplx (talk) 15:46, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
...cutoff level for significance is about p = 0.13, contrary to his claim of p = 0.05 (page 44), which means that in each case 144 x 0.13 = 18.7 pairings are expected to be individually significant by chance alone. Overall there are 25 + 13 = 38 individually significant pairings vs 2 x 18.7 = 37.4 expected by chance alone, which means that Sachs's results actually provide no support whatever for sun sign effects.
In either case your amateur analysis holds no water at wikipedia. See WP:OR And WP:secondary sources. You are entitled to your opinion, but Wikipedia requires more than that. Mystylplx (talk) 20:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Continuing to dwell on fatally flawed sun sign tests as a straw man argument seems like a way of dodging my challenge to you. Robertcurrey (talk) 22:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)But my criticism has been confirmed by Suitbert Ertel's work [see next article below], in which case the entire Sachs' study must be dismissed as invalid.
As urged by Erekint, if the "To this:" version above represents a consensus, then I would support it, with just a few edits. This would result in the following introductory section:
Further collaboration to v.2 is invited, though care must be taken that the pseudoscience claim, and similar tone, does not overwhelm or "obfuscate" the mainstream thrust of the article, in violation of WP:FRINGE/PS. The main thrust should be the revitalization of astrology and its leading place in New Age thinking. Astrologers are keen observers of social, economic, political, and spiritual change and they sustain a lively discourse in history, philosophy, psychology, human relationships, health, science, and the transformation of cultural beliefs. As editors, we must allow the Astrology article to accurately reflect the rightful place of astrology in history, culture, and in New Age thinking, and this includes all recent contributions made on behalf of its own historical and scientific research.
I am not an astrologer myself, but have an active interest in the subject. BTW I am very interested if Mystylplx will take up Robertcurrey's challenge and cite a specific study or two that has scientifically refuted astrology, as claimed. This should prove to be quite interesting and potentially enlightening. Apagogeron (talk) 22:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Erekint, whilst I see what you are trying to do, as it stands I think your proposal introduces some problems, and takes away some of the clarity of the earlier suggestions of myself and Apagogeron. It may not be wise to get too technical in the opening comments, and there are some astrologers who don’t use signs or houses, adopting what they believe is a more Kepler-style astrology. The reference to the Vedic age is problematic, because it won’t be clear what that is, and it could cause controversy. The Indian Supreme Court ruling specified stated that astrology was trusted because of its “4000 year history” so whilst astrology’s true age is highly debatable, at least we are presenting information that was used in the Court ruling, backed up by the citation to the ruling. But these are minor matters andI am happy to go with the majority opinion if others feel differently.Gary PH (talk) 19:27, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Taking a que from Apagogeron, and given the excessive and one sided emphasis on the pseudoscienctific view of sceptics in the lead, it is proposed the following be added to the lead:
Scientific research has found evidence in favour of astrology, including reversing earlier findings against[cite e.g. Gauqelin (1955), Carlson (1985), Ertel (1987) and Ertel (2009)]. The failure of sceptics to acknowledge the results, has prompted the researchers to allege pseudo-rationality in the scientific community[cite earlier quoted material].
This would balance the discussion. Erekint (talk) 07:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Proponents of fringe theories have in the past used Wikipedia as a forum for promoting their ideas. Existing policies discourage this type of behavior: if the only statements about a fringe theory come from the inventors or promoters of that theory, then various "What Wikipedia is not" rules come into play. Wikipedia is neither a publisher of original thought nor a soapbox for self-promotion and advertising. The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents.
Wikipedia is quite explicit in its promise that: “Wikipedia does not have firm rules. Rules on Wikipedia are not carved in stone, and the spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars Using rules to quash or undermine evidence is certainly not in the spirit of Wikipedia’s pledge. Worse ... it’s also bad science.
Erekint, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, astrology is pseudoscience (hence calling it fringe is actually a bit of an understatement) because for a hundred years all respectable reliable sources have been saying so, and a few of them are of very high quality and examined astrology in depth. As a result, WP:FRINGE applies. You are now claiming that the situation has changed, based only on publications by a formally peer-reviewed journal that is not accepted by the scientific community at large, and on publications by astrologists or under the editorial control of astrologists. Per WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG this is in no way sufficient to prove the absolutely amazing claim that astrology suddenly is no longer considered a pseudoscience.
Besides, don't you think if this was true it would have made quite a splash and would have been reported by the popular media? Where is the New York Times article reporting that scientists are beginning to accept astrology as scientific, and that universities are now considering the establishment of astrology chairs? Hans Adler 08:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Comment I suggest that the Fringe POV pushers have been adequately answered several times already and continuing to discuss this with them will only be an immense waste of time for anyone involved. Policy WP:DUE and guidelines WP:FRINGE are clear on how to treat this material. Unless something drastic happens to the community consensus in the area of pseudoscience there is nothing more to talk about.Griswaldo (talk) 14:01, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
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