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It seems to me that the fact that this is a pseudoscience is burried too far down. I have tried to introduce it quite early, but my edits have been reverted by User:FreeKnowledgeCreator. The approach I took was the same you find it articles such as phrenology, Feng shui, homeopathy, and reiki. You will see that two of them start by saying the it is a pseudoscience, as I did with astrology. The others say it in the next sentence or very soon after.
In his reversion, User:FreeKnowledgeCreator claims that "we need to start by explaining its specific features, not a feature it shares in common with many other things." This doesn't pan out. Such a claim precludes introductions like "The Invisible Man is a science fiction novel by H. G. Wells", which are obviously ubiquitous. Moreover, the revision simply replaces "a pseudoscience" with "the study", which itself is a feature shared in common with many other things. Any argument that the study is then modified by the of prepositional phrase is matched by the argument about the phrase following pseudoscience.--Brett (talk) 20:09, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
There’s probably a due weight issue in comparing this article to acupuncture. The pseudoscience mention in the acu article gets a bump because (as it claims to be a medical treatment), lots of doctors take the time to publish reports stating that it’s a PS bag of crap. Astrology is more concerned with what color shoes you ought to wear when you go out to day and as such, is crapped on by scientific publications from a height far closer to ground level. I don’t think a comparison of alt-med articles is a reason to bring this article “in line”. A case by case analysis is due. If there’s really a massive preponderance of sources discussing the pseudoscientific nature of this subject, then it probably belongs further up in the lead. If sources focus more on the historical aspects, then those should take precedence. I recently brought up the article shamanism as an example, in which pseudoscience isn’t really mentioned, despite there being lots of it associated with the practice. The reason for this is that is isn’t discussed in scientific terms that much. Perhsps when glassy eyed crystal chuckers work out a way to market it within the medical community and end up poisoning people, then we’ll start calling that pseudoscience too. Edaham (talk) 05:35, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
this implies a non-existent scientific study thereof-- by that reasoning parapsychology is not really the pseudoscience form of psychology, except insofar as they both study the mind, but parapsychology is definitely pseudoscience nonetheless. What's the legitimate science for parapsychology? If it's psychology, then astronomy is the scientific study for which astrology is the pseudoscience, both studying the stars. Pseudoscience doesn't have to be the incorrect form of some other science, it can be bad science in isolation.
The majority of comments here support putting it in the first sentence. Only Britmax and FreeKnowledgeCreator seem to be against this. They have offered arguments against particular wording, but those seem to have been overcome. Their main claim seems to now be that it doesn't need to be there. Others have offered good reasons for why it does, including the fact that what shows up on a phone is just the first paragraph by default. Unless some stronger arguments against putting it in the first sentence are presented, I think they should accept that it's useful and stop reverting useful edits.--Brett (talk) 20:38, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Done.--Brett (talk) 00:02, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Can anyone provide any evidence or any reference where it is claimed that astrology is a science? Personally, I have never seen any.
If such evidence or reference is lacking then astrology cannot be labelled as a pseudoscience.
Although there are undeniable important mathematical and astronomical elements at play that are indeed "scientific", astrology is primarily a form of divination AKA "a divinatory art". Being an art form, it cannot be labelled a science or a pseudoscience. That being the case, to begin to define an art form based on a scientific qualitative evaluation is not immediately relevant to the definition of the craft under scrutiny, regardless of whether it is able or not to produce anything of value in any way, shape or form.
The same approach to defining any other art form would immediately disqualify the definition.
For example, since there are undeniable important mathematical elements to music and since some musicians and/or computers are able to produce some music on that basis, music could be defined as follows:
"Music is a pseudoscience that claims to effect certain emotional changes in people by means of the application of various frequencies to the sense of hearing. For example, although the action of scratching horsetails with catguts -- an action known by practitioners as playing string instruments -- frequently manages to cause emotional reactions such as joy or sadness as evidenced by facial expressions such as smiles or tears, there is no scientific evidence and no neurological mechanisms capable of explaining the phenomenon. Moreover, such emotional reactions are not replicable in the subjects studied at all time." Although such definition of music would not be altogether wrong it would fail to define what music truly is.
This is how ridiculous the Wikipedia definition of astrology sounds. I am not suggesting to throw away whatever scientists may or may not have to say on the matter. I am merely pointing out that the scientific perspective on astrology is as irrelevant as any other scientific perspective on any other art form.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:6200:8856:265e:d37:1bc2:f78b:ce58 (talk • contribs)
Please provide a reference claiming that astrology is: A/ a belief system and B/ a science. Here is the Encyclopedia Britannica definition of astrology: "type of divination that involves the forecasting of earthly and human events through the observation and interpretation of the fixed stars, the Sun, the Moon, and the planets." And: "Astrology is a method of predicting mundane events based upon the assumption that the celestial bodies—particularly the planets and the stars considered in their arbitrary combinations or configurations (called constellations)—in some way either determine or indicate changes in the sublunar world. The theoretical basis for this assumption lies historically in Hellenistic philosophy and radically distinguishes astrology from the celestial omina (“omens”) that were first categorized and cataloged in ancient Mesopotamia." Nowhere does it mention the words "belief" or "science". However, it mentions the words "divination", "method" and "philosophy".
For reference, here is the Encyclopedia Britannica definition of divination: "the practice of determining the hidden significance or cause of events, sometimes foretelling the future, by various natural, psychological, and other techniques. Found in all civilizations, both ancient and modern, it is encountered most frequently in contemporary mass society in the form of horoscopes, astrology, crystal gazing, tarot cards, and the Ouija board."
Again, no mention of science anywhere to be seen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:6200:8856:265e:d37:1bc2:f78b:ce58 (talk • contribs)
I am well aware of the content of the whole article. I am also well aware of the article "Astrology and Science" which is nothing more than an appeal to authority. I have provided respectable references defining astrology as a method of divination. Where are your references defining astrology as a science?
To point to a Wiki article on pseudoscience in order to support the definition of astrology presented here is self-referential and totally irrelevant unless astrology is first referenced as a science by a reputable secondary source that is, so far, nowhere to be seen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:6200:8856:265e:d37:1bc2:f78b:ce58 (talk • contribs)
Dear Mr McSly. I will not sign my post unless wikipedians post under their real names.
I am here to attempt to improve the article which, unless I am mistaken, is the raison d'être of Wikipedia "The encyclopedia anyone can edit" and of the talk pages. Any discussion will indeed remain sterile if one party is sure to be in a privileged relationship with the "truth" -- whatever that may mean from an epistemological point of view -- particularly when that party claims to have settled the "truth" once and for all.
The title of this section is "Fronting the pseudoscientific aspect of astrology" so I think I am in the right place.
By all known accounts, astrology is primarily defined as a method of divination. That being the case, the article should start with that definition. I provided a reputable reference in support of that definition ([1]). Indeed, the very references used by Wikipedians also define astrology as a a method of divination without any mention or claim of "a belief system attempting to pass as a science". See here, here and here. The last link points to "The Blackwell Dictionary of Western Philosophy" where astrology is defined under the heading "Philosophy of Science": "As a philosophy, astrology is related to ancient cosmology and Ptolemaic astronomy, but it is mainly known as a divinatory art..." So, it seems that even your own references disagree with the assertion that astrology claims to be a science in any way, shape or form.
To define astrology primarily as a pseudoscience without first referencing any claim that astrology attempts to pass as scientific is inaccurate. It seems wikipedians have missed that crucial step. That being the case, the article should provide at least one solid reference defining astrology as a "belief system attempting to pass as a science". That being done, wikipedians are welcome to include counterclaims challenging that notion by quoting various opinions, including that of scientists further down the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:6200:8856:40c0:e527:b190:196e:1ad4 (talk • contribs)
References
If astrology is introduced as "pseudoscience" in the opening statement, shouldn't every single religious belief? 75.167.180.24 (talk) 10:40, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Was there not a book by Hans Eysenck called "Astrology - Science or Superstition" doing a statistical analysis of astrology? This could be mentioned in the article. Vorbee (talk) 19:57, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
When I noticed that there were citations and that Kapyidu's edit made the text closer to them, with the lead already mentioning pseudoscience, I of course welcomed them. On the other hand, I realize that the first sentence is often what is showned as short description by Google or on mobile devices (we also have the short description on Wikidata or in a template). An ideal scenario would be for the lead not to need citations but to be an accurate summary of the body (per WP:LEAD). But what often happens then is that drive by editors notice pseudoscience and want to remove it, especially if it's not followed by an obvious supporting citation, so there's always a tradeoff... So for now I agree with the restoration of the pseudoscience mention in the first sentence, but have also added a supporting citation. —PaleoNeonate – 00:17, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
If it is a stated article policy to have a “Neutral point of view,” how is it possible to begin the article with the pejorative statement that Astrology is a pseudoscience? Even from the viewpoint of science, bias should be avoided. We all know this is a loaded term.
It is also an anachronism. Part of the corpus of knowledge under the category called "astrology" formed prior to the development of what is called a "scientific method," a method within which the term "pseudoscience" was coined and deployed against rival knowledge, and also prior to the Latin word for science. According to the Wikipedia article, the term pseudoscience originates in the 19th century. It is anachronistic to call something "pseudoscience" that did not purport to exemplify the scientific method or to be a science as we understand the meaning of this term in the modern period.
The original Latin word for science might have been synonymous with knowledge. Thus, during that time if a text or body of thought presented itself as knowledge, it might also be transliterated as "science" in the Latin. But in the modern usage, science refers, much differently, to a set of specific practices and a heavy reliance upon empiricism to form so called verifiable facts. Thus, "science" can no longer be synonymous with knowledge: it is only one form of knowing—or for some the belief of knowing. It is only a subset within the broader category of knowledge. So if astrology purported to be a science long ago, this was consistent with what the word meant then: knowledge--or system of knowledge--in that time. If it purports to be a science now, which is much less loosely defined, that is an entirely different story. It cannot fit into that paradigm. But where is the evidence that the thread of astrology that still persists into the present is trying to fit into that paradigm, a paradigm that has only existed in the last couple hundred years, when astrology has been around thousands of years before "science," being what we understand that term to mean in our time?
From the outside, it looks like the use of the pejorative is like beating a dead horse. And how does that reflect on the professionalism of the scientific community?
Barry.kozemko (talk) 00:16, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
If it is a stated article policy to have a "Neutral point of view"- The WP:NPOV policy is about faithfully representing reliable sources (WP:RS). Other policies include WP:FRINGE and WP:PSCI (clearly identifying when a topic is considered pseudoscientific). —PaleoNeonate – 06:08, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
I removed the following entry from the dab page The Astronomer because it doesn't belong there:
I intended to add it to the See also section of this article, but I will have to ask someone who can edit it to do that. I can't imagine that adding it would be controversial. Thanks. —8.9.83.76 (talk) 01:43, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
I have twice attempted to add this article to the category Pseudoscience, and have been reverted. The explanation given seems illogical to me, so I'd like a detailed explanation rather than an edit summary note. Specifically, I might understand if it can be explained how Homeopathy is different. That article is categorized as both Homeopathy and Pseudoscience. That was the first one of its type I looked at, and there it was - just the way I expected. I just now picked a totally different subject to see if that was a one-off, Baseball, and I see a similar situation there. The main article is categorized as Baseball, but also as Team Sport, of which baseball is surely a sub-cat. By the way, this came up when a friend looked at this article and noticed that the category list in Astrology at the bottom of the article did not include Pseudoscience, and was aghast, and asked me to fix it. RobP (talk) 21:17, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Question one
Is the argument here that from the standpoint of WP:SUBCAT, the following cats exclude Category:Pseudoscience?
Question two
Should we be discussing this on a page that talks about categories?
Question three
Has such a discussion already happened?
--Guy Macon (talk) 04:42, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
As a canonical example of a pseudoscience (in this case, a prescientific idea on whose storied history current-day practitioners lean heavily upon to argue for scientific legitimacy), I think astrology, like alchemy ought to be included in spite of WP:SUPERCAT. jps (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Consensus at an article is determined on that article's talk pagerather renders ramshackle requests to respect policy, and moot given the support here. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:17, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Astrologaster. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. PamD 17:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
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Astrology#Western section: Please add a wikilink from "tropical zodiac" words to tropical zodiac. Thank you. Mezze stagioni (talk) 11:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to suggest adding a book I found very thought provoking because it presents an approach not included here. It derives astrology completely from materialist science and rejects all elements of Theosophy, spiritual vibrations etc etc, and draws on the determinism of Herbert Spenser to argue that everything is predictable (given sufficient data and processing facility!) and that the phenomena in the heavens mirror the phenomena of mundane experience and ought to be able to be mapped one to one (or above to below!). It also takes a severely phenomenological perspective derived from Francis Crick's "astonishing hypothesis". Thus it locates astrology within orthodox science and Newtonian physics as opposed to the usual dualist 'science investigates...' approach. I think it is well worth including Astrology and the Brain by Abramelin (kindle). (It is the transcript of talks given to an occult group in 2017, unfortunately the author isn't named). Quisquis3354 (talk) 19:17, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
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Indian method of astrology brings the completion of the definition of astrology. Source - https://astrosaze.com Astrosaze (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
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I think the phrase sacred canopy in § Western politics and society needs an {{Explain}} tag. It seems like specialist terminology and the meaning is completely opaque to me as a layperson. -- vagabondsun (talk ✨ contribs) 20:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
It should be the correct spelling. It's used in 'Ancient Greece' and in 'Ancient Greece and Rome'. Thraex64 (talk) 02:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
This section is too abstract and difficult for many readers and probably most people who believe in astrology. Astrology is more a pseudoreligion than a pseudoscience for most people, even those who only half believe it and don't take it seriously.
A better and more easily comprehensible summary of why it's nonsense would be to summarize the physicist Nils Mustelin's criticism, which consists of an analogy even children can understand: He created "tramology", a parody of astrology based on the scientific fact that trams exert a greater force of gravity on a city's inhabitants than planets because they are so much closer. --Espoo (talk) 08:53, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
For example:
"Those who continue to have faith in astrology have been characterised as doing so '...in spite of the fact that there is no verified scientific basis for their beliefs, and indeed that there is strong evidence to the contrary.'[117]"
The above statement attacks the believer as opposed to the belief, and one sees no logical use for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:24D0:2CA0:54D3:5438:BA5B:2312 (talk) 05:31, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
'pseudoscience', another example of brilliant 'wikivoice' again. this should be removed immediately if wikipedia wants to aim to be objective, because the source listed is merely 'Why astrology is a pseudoscience' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.70.26 (talk) 23:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Can't agree more. At the very least say "quasi-science," although even that is assuming the 20th century bias that "science" can be reserved only for the empirically knowable, whereas the word connotes any organized species of human knowing/a body of accumulated knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.87.133.26 (talk) 22:02, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
I would like to fix footnote 8, but unfortunately, I cannot. Can someone else with the appropriate rights do so? ˜˜˜˜ H. (talk) 14:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
I suppose it is, but it looks ugly. Ah well, I suppose an entire process of reviewing will have prece(e)ded this ;-) H. (talk) 15:41, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
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correct "practise" to "practice" Cigbruh (talk) 02:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
{{edit extended-protected}}
template. Both forms are valid, and are present in approximately equal numbers in the article. One should be chosen for consistency (without modifying the one usage that appears in quotation marks), but that should be done through a discussion here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:13, 21 October 2020 (UTC)This edit request to Astrology has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"In the late 1400s, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola forcefully attacked astrology" => "In the late 15th century, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola forcefully attacked astrology"
1400s means exclusively 1400-1409, not 1401-1500. According to his article, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola lived cca 1460-1490. 93.136.166.129 (talk) 23:20, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
is the word "divine" in the first sentence a verb or an adjective?--142.163.194.75 (talk) 12:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Regardless whether or not its a pseudoscience, everyone can agree that its widely considered to be a pseudoscience. --Uni3993 (talk) 21:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Recently in the last 24 hrs an astrology page was removed by a user and i was using that page as a reference is there a way to get it back? Or is it gone forever? Maxlmus (talk) 15:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Well, I was reading a page on astrology a basic understanding of it on Wikipedia. "What is astrology?" There was an in depth knowledge about the branches of astrology and it's various links regarding each branch. Some guy named plastikspork deleted that section of the page from public view. I don't know the reason but the page was helpful and it wasn't wrong or confusing so i want to why he deleted it and how to get it back Maxlmus (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
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This article mistakenly calls astrology pseudoscience. Definition of pseudoscience: "a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method." Astrology does not profess to be one of the physical sciences, and it certainly does not champion the scientific method or argue the scientific method validates it. This assertion is false, and likely the result of emotional bias.
Request is that all references to astrology being a pseudoscience be removed. Arescend52 (talk) 17:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
I have noticed that there is no separation between "The Zodiac Man" and its description in the text under the 2nd image. I believe the best way to remedy this is by placing a comma or colon there. Sorry if this isn't the right location to point this out.
--GaryTheSeagull (talk) 15:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
The first sentence of this article uses divine as a verb, and it is not a verb. And I know that the edits I made are unsourced, but its important to paraphrase. You can't give information that words a sentence the exact way as the source. Thats plagiarism. Unless it doesn't matter with wikipedia is free and is not-for-profit. Lunnesta8899 (talk) 21:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Lunnesta8899
The first sentence of this article as of June 24 2020 says "Astrology is a pseudoscience...". There are four citations at the end of this sentence claiming to support that statement. I followed the links to the page's citations [1][2][3][4] etc and found that whoever wrote this first sentence is actually using trickery to summarize the definition. Reference [1] is from the UK Dictionary https://www.lexico.com/definition/astrology and says
"The study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world." This definition defines astrology as a study.
Reference [2] is from the Merriam Webster dictionary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astrology and says:
"the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects" This definition defines astrology as divination.
Reference[3] is from The Blackwell Dictionary says: "...mainly known as a divinatory art." This definition defines astrology as an art.
It is only reference [4] "Why Astrology is a Pseudoscience" by Paul R. Thagard https://philpapers.org/rec/THAWAI
which mentions the word "pseudoscience", and that is someone's opinion, with no independent review of whether this opinion is valid.
Therefore, Wikipedia has no right to define astrology as a pseudoscience, since there is no evidence given that it was correctly termed a science, in the modern sense, in the first place. It seems that the writer of the current sentence is simply using the derogatory term "pseudoscience" as an ad hominem slight and vengeance to get a personal opinion across, both of which are against Wikipedia's policies, and should therefore be deleted, and replaced with an alternative linguistic definition of astrology. Alternatives might include:
metaphysical study spiritual study belief system theory symbolic language art
Cjcooper (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello @McSly, The statement "There is widespread agreement..." is not evidence of something being correct. For example, an encyclopedia of cooking could say "there is widespread agreement that British cooking is pseudo-cooking". Would Wikipedia then be bound to start off a page about British cooking with the words "British cooking is pseudo-cooking". I hope not. And in order for something to be termed a pseudo-science, it would have had to have been claimed to be a science in the first place. But there is no evidence in the article, or the citations, that astrologers ever claimed that astrology was a science, as we understand science today (standing up to repeated experimental testing, making accurate predictions etc). It looks to me as if the first sentence is a deliberate jab at astrologers by someone who thinks that astrologers are not bright enough to know what modern science is. Ther truth is that modern astrologers are quite happy with astrology being termed a belief system, art, metaphysical study, ancient philosophy, divinatory study etc, with the only link to science being the astronomy on which it is indirectly based. Music, ballet and painting all depend on scientific principles but are of themselves arts, not sciences. Similarly, the art of astrological interpretation indirectly depends on the observable science of planetary cycles in a metaphysical way, incorporating spirituality and psychology. By continuing to term astrology a pseudoscience, Wikipedia is only giving the impression to readers of one-upmanship and vengeance, as the term is derogatory. It does not make Wikipedia editors appear to be "on the level", neutral or acting fairly, in my opinion, and I have a science background.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjcooper (talk • contribs)
Hello McSly, You are probably right that astrologers would prefer not to be described by a negative term, especially on a social media platform which used to be known for its unbiased presentation. Wikipedia itself describes the word pseudoscience as pejorative, so it should not be difficult to understand why anyone, whether they are an astrologer or not, might assume that Wikipedia had a Chip_on_shoulder about astrology, using the word pseudoscience to unnecessarily insult, when several other un-insulting linguistic descriptions of astrology are available. So yes, I do think that the pseudoscience description should be removed and replaced with " Astrology is a branch of esotericism. My source for this statement comes from later in the Wikipedia article itself, where someone has written, in the Western section "Along with tarot divination, astrology is one of the core studies of Western esotericism". Since Western astrology is cited as being a core study of Western esotericism, it seems reasonable to assume that Eastern astrology is one of the core studies of Eastern esotericism, and therefore that both Western and Eastern astrology are part of/branches of the general term "esotericism".Cjcooper (talk) 01:37, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Since you all apparently can't be bothered to actually read @Cjcooper's (admittably long worded) posts, allow me to summarise it as concisely as I can, in big, easy to read letters...
ASTROLOGERS DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES SCIENTISTS. ASTROLOGERS DO NOT CALL ASTROLOGY SCIENCE. THEREFORE, BY DEFINITION, IT *CANNOT* BE PSEUDOSCIENCE.
And a thousand astronomers who wait in line to espouse that astrologers are fraudulently pretending to be scientists doesn't make it any more true than does a thousand Chinese communists declaring that the Dalai Lama's reincarnation will be controlled and regulated by the CPC make that to be so (and there are *plenty* of sources declaring it to be, but no reasonable editor would advocate stating that in wikipedia's voice). Firejuggler86 (talk) 09:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Gtmoore (talk) 21:36, 27 December 2020 (UTC) /* First Sentence */ Correction to assumptions about definition of "pseudoscience": First, pseudosciences do not need to self-identify as sciences to be called pseudoscience. All they need to do is to use methods that can be mistaken for science by others. [1] Astrology uses what appear to be scientific tools, namely real star charting and real mathematics, but fails to clearly state testable theories or test and prove its claims. Second, astrologists, astrology books, and astrology sites do constantly claim to be scientific. One of the main astrological tables is called a scientific ephemeris. The word pseudoscience has been used to describe some approaches to psychology, anthropology and archeology, (which are generally called "soft sciences"). [2] Predictability is considered scientific for some subjects such as weather. On the other hand, stock market predictions are still not scientific, even though they are capable of being described in what is claimed to be a purely numeric manner. Weather is not perfect in its predictions, but the parameters of success are known and testable. If astrology ever had the same predictability as weather predictions, it could become a science. Likewise, stock predictions. In the meantime, they are both psuedoscience, having an appearance of being scientific, but not meeting the definition of science. Gtmoore (talk) 21:36, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
References
Regarding the use of 'pseudoscience' to an ancient human practice inherent to all cultures of the world since the dawn of civilization, a practice which was the ground of mathematical, musical, and geometric growth and learning across the planet for millenia is extremely short-sighted, arrogant and, dare I say, colonialist. I am surprised that some of the comments above in the discussion are still here given how rude and insensitive they are, passing the boundaries of wikipedia's rules for conduct. One could maintain the use of 'pseudoscience' in the first sentence with an epithet: Astrology is considered a 'pseudoscience' by western scientific paradigms, but remains an age-old influential and popular practice of divination in most all human cultures. [1] [2] Coloniality denigrates and attempts to destroy all forms of knowledge which it does not understand and which do not abide by its self-imposed rules and standards of measurement. Anyone with any sort of responsibility towards encyclopedias and human knowledge ought to find the above discussion and the imperialist use of the term 'pseudoscience' abhorrent. I would be interested to know how other wiki entries in different languages have approached this issue, or if indeed it is as big an issue as in the dominant english language? Joldt (talk) 00:15, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
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Hey it is a science of god Hey it is more than science please do not call it a pseudoscience 61.2.201.111 (talk) 09:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm just dim, but this is the fifth or sixth time I stumbled upon this article and was confused by what the first sentence meant by "... that claims to divine information about ...". It's obvious that the vast majority of people recognize "divine" as an adjective meaning "of God or deities" rather than a verb meaning "have supernatural knowledge". I think it needs a change, but I don't know squat about astrology, so I can't tell what's the best verb for it. I hope someone here does. GN-z11 ☎ ★ 19:14, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Discussions are taking place as to whether the articles Descendant (astrology), Angle (astrology) and Derivative house are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether they should be deleted. The articles will be discussed at:
In addition, a recent proposal to delete the article Midheaven has been rejected, but any editor is welcome to start a deletion discussion about it. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 13:26, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
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Add to the "External links" a link to the exhibition of the Library of the Observatory of Paris "Sharing the sky : astronomers and astrologers in the West" (https://bibnum.obspm.fr/exhibits/show/astronomy_astrology/introduction) with this mention : "An exhibition of the Library of the Observatory of Paris about the shared history of astronomy and astrology around the Mediterranea." 145.238.197.116 (talk) 11:08, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Currently, the lede defines astrology as a pseudoscience. So what's a pseudoscience?
“Under the criterion of falsifiability, first proposed by the philosopher of science Karl Popper, astrology is a pseudoscience.” (Astrology, sub-section ‘Demarcation’)
Ah, ok, so the criterion of pseudoscience is falsifiability. Or rather, if we're going to be careful about it, for Popper falsifiability is the criterion of the scientific and its lack is the mark of the pseudoscientific—presumably that is what the sentence above is meant to mean. From an article elsewhere on here (Philosophy of science, sub-section ‘Defining science’):
“Popper argued that the central property of science is falsifiability. That is, every genuinely scientific claim is capable of being proven false, at least in principle.”
So far so clear. But then Astrology also contains passages like this:
‘The scientific community (…) considers [astrology] a pseudoscience. Scientific testing of astrology has been conducted, and no evidence has been found to support any of the premises or purported effects outlined in astrological traditions.’
Or:
‘Where [astrology] has made falsifiable predictions under controlled conditions, they have been falsified.”
Or:
‘The study, published in Nature in 1985, found that predictions based on natal astrology were no better than chance, and that the testing "...clearly refutes the astrological hypothesis."’
Hm. Wasn’t the point about the term pseudoscience—from Popper′s point of view, at least—that he needed some term to describe claims that are put forward as scientific but are not, as he saw the matter, genuinely scientific because not even capable of being shown to be wrong? Like, if I put forward a theory and we experiment, and try as we might we fail to make it fit the data, then we have not shown, according to Popper, that the theory was pseudoscientific. On the contrary, it was good science precisely because it was capable of being empirically tested and found wanting.
So on the one hand we have Popper saying, roughly, ‘astrology is pseudoscience because its claims aren’t falsifiable’ (subsection entitled ‘Demarcation’), and on the other, ‘the scientific community’ appearing to say, ‘astrology is pseudoscience and we’ve falsified its claims (because we’ve falsified them?).’
Is ‘the scientific community’ wrong when it (?) says that astrology has been falsified? Or is astrology perhaps scientific after all (but false)? Could Popper be wrong about the criterion of demarcation? Or is ‘the scientific community’ just using the term psuedoscientific in a different way to Popper? Or might the article itself be in need of clarification? Does it trade on unexamined equivocations in the term pseudoscience? Or does it, perhaps also, lean too heavily on the phrase ‘scientific community’ while ignoring the complexities that lie behind that phrase?
Maybe someone with the necessary privileges will be able to do something to disentangle the threads a little.
Help is to be gotten, IMHO, from Astrology and science and the comparatively excellent article on de.wikipedia.org. Aingotno (talk) 14:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
in contrast to scientific disciplines, astrology has not responded to falsification through experiment(in a seeming acceptance in wiki-voice of Popper's identification of 'scientific' with 'falsifiable') and that
scientific testing of astrology has been conducted. It's quite clearly an artefact of the tendentious way in which this section has been written: in its zeal to declare astrology a pseudoscience in all possible ways, it wants to have its cake and eat it, too (as an aside, Astrology and science suffers even more from this).
Popper’s demarcation criterion has been criticized both for excluding legitimate science [...] and for giving some pseudosciences the status of being scientific [...]. Strictly speaking, his criterion excludes the possibility that there can be a pseudoscientific claim that is refutable. According to Larry Laudan [...], it “has the untoward consequence of countenancing as ‘scientific’ every crank claim which makes ascertainably false assertions”. Astrology, rightly taken by Popper as an unusually clear example of a pseudoscience, has in fact been tested and thoroughly refuted.
“Popper argued that the central property of science is falsifiability. That is, every genuinely scientific claim is capable of being proven false, at least in principle.”
The scientific community (…) considers [astrology] a pseudoscience. Scientific testing of astrology has been conducted, and no evidence has been found to support any of the premises or purported effects outlined in astrological traditions.
Where [astrology] has made falsifiable predictions under controlled conditions, they have been falsified.
The study, published in Nature in 1985, found that predictions based on natal astrology were no better than chance, and that the testing "...clearly refutes the astrological hypothesis."
excludes the possibility that there can be a pseudoscientific claim that is refutableand states that
astrology, rightly taken by Popper as an unusually clear example of a pseudoscience, has in fact been tested and thoroughly refuted.In other words, Hansson is pointing out the perceived contradiction.
astrology [..] has in fact been tested and thoroughly refuted.he means that specific astrological claims that have been tested have been thoroughly refuted. If you define astrology as the set of testable claims it makes, then, yes, it is falsifiable. But astrology ia also the general idea that there is a connection between above and below. That is what Popper means, and that is not falsifiable. All this is pretty boring, and you don't need to spread a simple modus tollens over several sentences.
Lots of text and arguments have been added... and I won't read it all.
But let me say this: Astrology is, in various contexts and at various times, a proto science, a pseudoscience, and a cultural phenomenon. If, in the end, the article denies any of these, it will diminish my faith in Wikipedia as a project of reason.
There will be published die-hard pseudoscientists or academic apologists who deny it is a pseudoscience. There will be one-eyed positivist who deny it is anything but a pseudoscience.
I hope a consensus can be reached not falling into any of those two absurdities (while both may have to be covered by the article).--Nø (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please delete the "pseudo-science". This is biased. It is about the celestial bodies and our relationship to them. The sun alone projects nuclear ions that radiate heat for the Earth's life and vegetation. I am a Scientist with a long-time interest in ancient science and history. Godthåbsgade (talk) 14:20, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
The fact lunar influence is true. I did an experiment during full, waxing and waning moon phases. The results were my temperature and pulse went up slightly. Of course the Earth does have a gravitational pull to the sun. The fact I have proof for gravitational magnetic field influences, I think there should at least be a legit theory. Godthåbsgade (talk) 12:20, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
Of course the Earth does have a gravitational pull to the sun.That sort of reasoning is a pretty common red herring used by astrologers, although usually it is about tides. It says essentially, "Unplausible connections between A (outside Earth) and B (on Earth) are plausible because there are also existing and proven connections between C (outside Earth) and D (on Earth)." That does not work. Connections between two things are not contagious and do not jump to two other things.
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ADD SKEPTICISM:
Skepticism:
Many believe that Astrology does not work and it a pseudoscientific practice. Astrology can seem like a natural science as it studies the stars, however it is not. Astrology does not have any verifiable mechanism and it can be difficult to approach critically. Scientists must acknowledge facts and their hypothesis against conflicting theories using scientific methods. Astrologers fail to acknowledge facts as there are no real understanding or facts supporting astrology. Astrologers struggle to come to a consensus on their hypothesis' as they have many different claims as to why astrology works ranging from the magnetic field of the earth to the alignment of other planets. Some researchers claim that the reason astrology works is still unknown and they are still searching for it. Despite many trials, astrology has never demonstrated any scientific evidence or effectiveness. Astrology fails the criteria of falsibility as well. Therefore, science is not considered a science, but instead it is a pseudoscience.
Astrological predictions seem to work because they are vague and can apply to any situation and lack predictive power. This is somewhat due to the lack of consistency in the research and astrologers understanding of the subject. Astrologers have a vague hypothesis on what the stars can predict and most astrologers seem to have a different indication to that effect.
There is also a lack of physical evidence that links human behaviour to the constellations. There is no scientific evidence that supports these claims and no theories that are consistent with theories that have already been tested and proved. JenniferRunions (talk) 02:57, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
As per WP:DOIT and WP:NPOV, I have revised the lede from:
to
The reasoning here is simple:
Will clean it up a bit, perhaps, as well.
--MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!(talk or whatever) 06:36, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
In my opinion, this part of User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo's text is a clear improvement:
Describing astrology in the milennia predating moderns science as a pseudoscience is not reasonable. Possibly, claims could be seeks or pruports instead. However, the last bit,
may be too vague. Perhaps,
The lead states "...Contemporary Western astrology is often associated with systems of horoscopes that purport to explain aspects of a person's personality and predict significant events in their lives based on the positions of celestial objects; the majority of professional astrologers rely on such systems..."
The word "purport" seems too soft and perhaps unintentionally obfuscates away from its lack of empirical validity. Without changing the above statement it seems in line with articles covering similar content to include a statement on that indicates no academic research to indicate any merit behind such efforts. I'd suggest appending the statement. "However, these practices are considered pseudoscientific and whose predictions have repeatedly shown to be false." Or something along those lines. Purport hints at this fact but I think explicit recognition of Western Astrology as pseudoscientific and lacking empirical backing is an important inclusion.
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