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A moment's thought would surely reveal this as an absurdity. The mere logistics of executing 30,000 people in the middle of losing a battle are implausible to say the least, leave alone the fact that it would have been one of the worst massacres in history. And no mention of it anywhere but a third-rate third-hand source?
I'm cutting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.154.186.222 (talk) 01:44, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
The following book mentions it: [1] 209.17.150.6 (talk) 16:06, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
References
I read that coffee was made popular in Europe (it already was in England from Quicksilver (novel) because the Turks left behind a big stock of it.
I also read that croissants were invented to celebrate one of the victories of Christendom in Vienna. Was it this battle?
I had always thought that the croissant had indeed come of either this battle or earlier siege. The story as I understood it was that bakers, working early one morning in their bakeries heard the sounds of shovels beneath their floors and sounded the alarm. Because the city was saved (in either this or the earlier battle) the bakers were honored with the croissant, shaped like a crescent. To be sure, it might not have happened like that but you gotta think that there is some truth to the legend.Culmo80 19:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)culmo80
the 'third coffeehouse in Europe' statement seriously conflicts with the info given in that article - supposedly there were already 3000(sounds dubious as well) in England before that date! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.233.105 (talk) 20:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
=== while it is nice to see the myths about the croissant and the bagel listed under legends, it is dismaying to see suggestions that anything about them is uncertain. Quite simply, all these tales - of the invention of the croissant, the bagel and (in other sources) the bundt cake/kugelhopf, of the bags of coffee left behind - are mentioned in culinary sources, not standard histories of the city or this battle. Basically, it's all nonsense and no source cited here comes anywhere near documenting any of it in the period itself.69.228.33.130 (talk) 19:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The article is fairly short for such an important topic. Some of the additional points I'd like to cover include:
I'll do some more research and see what I can contribute.
Is this line an error: "The main Turkish army finally invested Vienna on July 14". Seems like it should say invaded not invested —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.211.133.254 (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The article sometimes refers the Austrian army, and sometimes to the Habsburg army. I'd like to make this more consistent. If no one objects, I shall change Habsburg to Austrian.
Before the 18th century the Army of the Austrian Habsburgs was usually called "Imperials" ("Kaiserliche") - refering to their position as Emperors of the HRE. There was nothing like an Austrian army at that time. Only in 1740 when the Habsburgs had lost the crown of the HRE for several years and at the same time started to centralize their realm, an "Austrian Army" came into being. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.168.80 (talk) 12:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently expanding especially the prelude and the military engagements just preceding the siege. Jensboot 20:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I put comment marks for the pictures of paintings by Kossak, Matejko and Brandt. If exists, I would second putting pictures of paintings rather contemporary to the siege. Jensboot 21:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I wonder where these strength numbers originate. Someone (83.76.87.200) has came up and changed the Ottoman strength from 140.000 to 200.000 without giving any reference or at least a minor comment on the discussion page. Can anybody confirm this change?roktas 19:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I don´t understand, I´ve red in lots of books that they were equal in numbers. The european side were allied with many nations, so they could have afford with at least 180,000 men! Only 10,000 during siege is a complete impossibility!
--Ignacio Arrizabalaga (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I can see that there was "citation needed" in the table near the number of Polish forces (37,000). I already provided the source for this number long time ago and explained the nature of these figures (why 37,000 and no less, no more). Just check the old version of the article after my old edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Vienna&oldid=210112665#cite_note-0
The numbers come from this website - http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/siege_of_vienna.htm - precisely from scans of the book "Wieden 1683" by Polish historian Jan Wimmer, where he provides the exact Order of Battle for Polish forces at Vienna. Here are scans of these pages from Wimmer's book which contain the exact Polish Order of Battle:
The last column of the table (6) show strength of each unit (either in portions or in factual numbers of soldiers) on 01.08.1683:
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/AquaImages/ob218.jpg
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/AquaImages/ob220.jpg
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/AquaImages/ob222.jpg
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/AquaImages/ob224.jpg
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/AquaImages/ob226.jpg
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/AquaImages/ob228.jpg
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/AquaImages/ob230.jpg
The actual strength of units strength of which was reported in "portions" (of soldier's pay) was about 9% lower than the number of portions "on paper" (because officers received the same amount of money as several soldiers). Other units however - which were not organized according to the "portions system" - had real strength the same as reported strength in this Order of Battle.
In total this data shows that Polish army numbered ca. 37,000 (including 16,300 infantry, 150 artillery crews and 20,550 cavalry and dragoons).
Hope now everything is clear.
Peter558 (talk) 23:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
These numbers - 37,000 - refer to total forces mobilized, not only those sent towards Vienna. At Vienna there were 27,000 Poles. Updated.
Peter558 (talk) 22:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
the reference to "Kahlen Berg" in the first para below from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna is correct. The reference to "Kahlenberg" in the second para needs some clarification. The text in the third para below from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopoldsberg explains why: Since the time the church was built the mountain has been known as Leopoldsberg.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna: "The Holy League forces arrived on the "Kahlen Berg" (bare hill) above Vienna, signalling their arrival with bonfires. In the early morning hours of 12 September, before the battle, a mass is held for King Sobieski."
"In honor of Sobieski, the Austrians had erected a church atop a hill of Kahlenberg, north of Vienna...."
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopoldsberg: "Modern-day Leopoldsberg therefore had the name “Kahlenberg” (it was the “bare” or kahl of the two) until 1693 when the baroque church was built on top, at which time the name was transferred to the neighboring mountain (modern-day Kahlenberg). In 1683, modern-day Leopoldsberg was the meeting point of King Jan III Sobieski’s Polish-Austrian troops, who defeated the Turkish invaders and liberated the city of Vienna during the Second Siege of Vienna (Polish veterans consider Kahlenberg as the setting of the famous battle)."
Could somebody please clarify the statement, "Also, the behaviour of Louis XIV of France set the stage for centuries to come"? It is unclear as to what stage is being set. European conflicts? Politics? Fighting wars on two fronts? Ruthlessly annexing territory? It is unclear to me. Thank you. — RJH (talk) 20:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It is hard to believe that the battle of Vienna began on 9/11. I strongly doubt that Osama bin Laden picked this date by sheer coincidence. The date was one of many messages. -- 62.245.160.188 17:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
According to page 249 of "The 9/11 Commission" lead hijacker Mohammed Atta was the one who chose the date. Whether it truly was just coincidence or if he had knowledge of the date of this battle is never mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zz pot (talk • contribs) 02:50, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, of course the date is significant. 9/11/2001 and 9/11/2012 are considered "revenge" for 9/11/1683. Art Cancro (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
FYI:
this theory is in the article for 9/11 ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Planning Paranoid Android1208 (talk) 17:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
I suggest adding a reference to John Stoye's excellent book from 2000 "The Siege of Vienna." Timosh1313 21:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I am tiring of Nostradamus1 who constantly deletes the content I am trying to provide, along with their citations in several books for which I have provided ISBN numbers and even the page numbers. There is nothing more I have to say than what I already said here on my talk page. If the community here is sufficiently interested in the facts please reinstate them, because I am unwatching this page now. Sorry, there are just too much other things to do that are actually productive. Bye.-Glst2 (talk) 11:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
This demonstrates this user's POV. The above sounds like an original research or thesis that has no place here. The article gains nothing by this user's selective translation and quotation other than pushing for his/her POV. I will remove these quotations that have no encyclopedic value.--Nostradamus1 (talk) 03:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)What value does this add? Simple: it adds first-hand evidence of Ottoman "conversion or annihilation" attitude towards Vienna and its population at this precise time immediately prior to the Battle of Vienna. It is therefore justified to include it in the respective article, just as it is not only perfectly justified but actually essential for the completeness of the article on Heinrich Himmler to illustrate his organized extermination of the Jews by providing translations of selected sections of his Posen speech.
Was there olso Moldova and Wallahia on the Turkish side, or only Crimean Khanate? All were Ottoman vassal so needed to assist Turks in the time of war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.100.60 (talk) 18:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I have read many sources that list the date of the Battle of Vienna. Some say September 11th, some say September 12th. I have noticed the changes have been made numerous times. Certain scholars say September 11th, others say September 12th. I would like some clarification, but until then, I would suggest not allowing alterations of the page by unregistered or new members. --Farmer88 (talk) 05:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Is there any map showing what was the extend of Ottoman empire and Holy roman league during the battle? --gppande «talk» 14:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
If the intro contains the name of the battle in Ukrainian language, why is Crimean Tatar, Hungarian and Romanian missing? The Polish, German and Turkish can be justified, because of main victors/the place/the main loosers. ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 17:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I added the date of the signing of the Treaty of Karlowitz. Although it says the Ottoman Empire battled for another 16 years, I think it is important to explicitly state the year of which the treaty was signed, as the wording in this section continues on from the previous one in terms of forming an actual date from the '16 years', and it should be assumed that one reading the article will not be reading it cover to cover. Broden (talk) 03:57, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Beautiful article. This comment is just intended to suggest clarification of a minor point. The last sentence of the penultimate paragraph in section "Events during the siege" states: "Louis XIV of France declined to help its Habsburg rival, having just annexed Alsace." The words "annexed Alsace" are linked to the article War of the Reunions. The sentence and link are confusing for two reasons. First, it is unclear whether France or Habsburg annexed Alsace. Second, the linked article, War of the Reunions, does not state that Alsace was annexed by anyone. Instead, the linked article seems to suggest that no significant change in land occurred during the war. The article states: "While Louis refused to send aid to the Empire and even dispatched envoys to secretly encourage the Ottomans, contemporary accounts indicate that it would be unseemly for him to continue fighting the Empire on its western border. Thus Louis agreed to the Truce of Ratisbon, guaranteeing twenty years of peace between France and the Empire and asking his first cousin, Charles II of England, to arbitrate the disputed border claims." As I have no expertise in this area, I do not feel competent to suggest any particular changes myself.--Rpclod (talk) 16:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
There is an inconsistency in this article in that in the introduction it is stated that the key battle took place on the 11th September. In the detailed section it states that the battle began by an attack of the Ottoman forces on 12th September. All other authorities agree on the 12th. This is an important issue given that the coincidence of the 11th has stimulated all sorts of 9/11 theories. This should be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cliderhaugr (talk • contribs) 09:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Afterwards Sobieski paraphrased Julius Caesar's famous quotation (Veni, vidi, vici) by saying "Veni, vidi, Deus vicit" – "I came, I saw, God conquered" --- I'm not sure it is a good form. In Poland we know his words as "Venimus, vidimus et Deus vicit", what means -"We came, We saw, God conquered". But like i said before - im not sure.
This article substantially cites books by Andrew Wheatcroft and Alan Palmer. These people are not scholarly historians, but pop-history writers. They can't be considered reliable sources. All citations of their work should be checked against the work of academic historians and replaced with better citations. Chamboz (talk) 23:32, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
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The Ottoman's were like a superpower their impunivie attack at Vienna is hard to unfold and criticize. Fjgdh5 (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2019 (UTC)\Fjgdh5 (talk)\ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.19.2 (talk)
The seeds of Protestant freedom, especially in Hungary, were crushed by Catholic powers.
Trleith (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zden%C4%9Bk_Ka%C5%A1par_Kapl%C3%AD%C5%99_ze_Sulevic Count Kaplíř was an Austrian imperial marshall. He was a chairman of Vienna emergency government during the Turkish siege and deputy commander of Vienna garrison. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.111.77.141 (talk) 10:16, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
As I understand it, the majority of the coalition troops at Vienna came from the Habsburg Monarchy and Bavaria. Why then, is Poland at the top of the infobox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Preußenistgross (talk • contribs) 14:34, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Because Pilsudki was overall commander of the league Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 01:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Much of the article is written with unacademic, unnecessary, and sometimes biased language. I will begin the process of rewritting several sections to better meet wikipedia standards. Ashemus (talk) 12:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
The user Gvssy has added 1,500 Swedes to the strength of the coalition in the infobox. His source, however, only states that Charles XI decided to send an auxiliary force to aid the Vienna in 1683. It makes no mention of the force actually partaking in neither the siege nor the relief of Vienna. That is because they didn't.
Nils Bielke, who is claimed to be the commander of the 1,500 men that Charles XI dispatched, only arrived to fight the Turks in 1684, and this is even insinuated in the footnotes of the Gvssy's source. I'll translate from the book "Nils Bielke och kriget mot Turkarna, 1684-1687", which is the reference for the Swedish auxiliary force's listed strength and commanding officers in the aforementioned source:
"...after the end of the Riksdag in January 1683 he [Bielke] asked for the King's permission to partake in the fight of the Christians against the overwhelming Turkish force... But the situation changed before Bielke had managed to put his plans into effect, and before he had opportunity to travel. A French fleet, which had united with the Danish fleet in the Sound, threatened Karlskrona and the newly-created Swedish fleet inside it, and Danish troop concentrations on Sjælland were thought to be directed against Scania. Charles XI revoked his approval of this [Bielke's] travel due to these circumstances, and Bielke instead followed Charles XI on the King's summer and autumn travels to the southern and western parts of his realm. But as the threatening danger proved to be just a warlike demonstration, Bielke then, upon his homecoming to Stockholm in October, renewed his request for permission to fight against the heretics...
In March 1684 Bielke left Stockholm and went to Malmø, then to Lübeck and Hamburg..."
This is from pages 17 and 18. They're available here: https://books.google.dk/books?id=Rt9CAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=da#v=onepage&q&f=false
The book also makes no mention of the 1,500 number. Other wikipages, like the Danish page on Otto Wilhelm von Königsmarck, mention that Charles XI was obliged by the Pope to aid the Emperor after the Battle of Vienna, and that Charles XI was forced to acquiesce due to Swedish Pomerania making him a prince of the Holy Roman Empire. Königsmarck is mentioned as arriving at Neuhäusel with the force in 1685 - however, that article is completely unsourced.
Nothing points to there being Swedes at Vienna in 1683. Admiral Fisker (talk) 14:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
The opening sentence of the article states, "The Battle of Vienna took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna on 12 September 1683...". But if one reads the "Battle" section, it becomes apparent that most of the action took place in the lower-lying areas to the northwest of what was then the city of Vienna. Perhaps the sentence should be rewritten more generally? Abductive (reasoning) 04:07, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
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