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As a recent calendar-reform proposal, I thought this deserved mention. I just want to note that I am not Henry, this is not intended to be promotion or spam, it's just that the article is so stubby that adding a paragraph about a new proposal does sort of put it out of balance. But I don't see how to describe it in less than a paragraph... and I think that citing sources is important. If they look too link-spammy let me document them here for the record in case anyone decides they shouldn't all be in the article. I think the proposal is a bit nutty, by the way, and his page describing it contains some astonishingly flippant and dismissive remarks about possible objections. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:25, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In my quest for reform of the calendars, I have been attempting to update my arguments/thoughts since 1970-71 after my name got 'first time' in media print Via Tribune, Chandigarh (06 June 1971); and then as Time by Metric (Times of India, New Delhi (04 July 1971). Today, I stand in favour for *shifting a day from July (thereby making this month of 30 days; and adding this day gained into the month of February making this of 29 days in all Years* falling in line for my proposed Vij's Gregorian Rhyme Calendar 2005-2006 under discussion with Calndr-L group. Added advantage of this format is that NOT ONLY the four(4) quarters and two(2) half years can have 91-days or 13 weeks in each quarter ON KEEPING THE 365th day & 366th days of the year outside of the calendar format BUT *durations in each month follow the Kepler's Laws (unlike the C&T calendar or International Fixed Calendar). I evolve the period of 373632-years wherein the THREE cycles: 128-yr,(7*128=896-yr/159 Lwks)and the 834-yr_148 Lwks can be made use of/for the CIVIL calendar. 128-yr cycle gains over others by NOT MAKING any drastic change except that the CENTURIAN RULE gets modified from 100/400-yr "Leap Day Rule" to 128/896-yr for making the adjustment for leap day accounting. Luni-solar alignments are possible using (33,33,33,29)years or [(33,31)& (33,31)] i.e. 2*64-yr aligning using 19-year lunar cycle with 235 lunations - alongwith 'rationalised Tithi/ phases' of duartion 138*7-day/965th. Values for Mean Year and Mean Lunation are possibly the best 'comparable with any calendar'.
Brij Bhushan Vij (metricvij AT hotmail.com) 7 January 2005
This article should probably switch focus more to the idea behind calendar reform and there should be created an articles just for C&T
- Singpolyma 14:01, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)
I think the calendar reform page should not discuss specific proposals as such. Instead, it should outline the concept of calendar reform and discuss the reasons why people feel its necessary. A history of calendar reform would be especially interesting, because it has a surprisingly rich history:
--B.d.mills 11:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have modified the page as described, and moved most of the calendar-specific discussion to a new page. --B.d.mills 10:43, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I felt the need to expand this page. Previously, it was stub-like, with a list attached, and said little about these proposals.
I agree with B.d.mills and others, above, that the original revisions of this article - i.e. the long, drawn out explanation of ONE proposal (C&T) - was not appropriate. However, going into the reform of the JULIAN calendar is also wrong, and I'm glad to see that didn't happen. That's done very well in the Gregorian calendar article.
As it stood, there were blanket statements made in the arrticle that do not apply to all calendar reform proposals. It pointed out the flaws of the calendars with "null" or "off-calendar" days, and pointed people in the direction of the 53-week calendar. That's not very complete, and its inaccurate because not all suggested calendars suffer from those flaws.
My revision hits on:
Each calendar proposal is BRIEFLY mentioned in the text, WITHOUT much elaboration, since that's done in the other articles. But it's an injustice to these proposals to have left this intro as is, since it said little about the reform movement, which has been - and is - quite active.
Comments welcomed, and bear in mind I am not criticizing previous editors in particular. This was a very well maintained short article. Nhprman 05:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Japanese Era calendar is simply an established naming system used in Japan, and is not a "reform" of the Gregorian calendar.
The Holocene calendar is a proposal to re-number the calendar from the Holocene epoch. Mention should be made of that proposal on that page. Nhprman 01:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I compromised and created a separate subcategory re: numbering the years, while I still say these are NOT specifically Gregorian calendar REFORMS, simply renumbering the current year (and in the case of the Japanese calendar, it is not a proposal, it is a FACT and has already been implemented, so it is unlike any of the other proposals. Even the Holocene is a legitimate proposal. Nhprman 17:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The "With exceptions" in the following sentence has been reverted and restored. Before it becomes a revert war, can someone lay out the exceptions, so it's clear what the answer is? -- Nhprman List 17:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The exceptions are those years whose number is divisible by 40, but not 400. See New_Earth_Calendar#Leap_week_rule_and_New_Year 08:00 Karl Palmen
Calendar reform is not just proposed changes to the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian calendar was itself a reform -- and a reform of the Julian calendar, itself a reform. I'm adding some history. Goldfritha 17:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Most reforms, all over the world, were to better synchronize the calendar with the actual year. Does anyone have any reference to substantiate the claim that only Western reforms were thus intended? Goldfritha 03:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Moved the paragraph and removed "Western". Goldfritha 21:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I think some mention needs to be made that there is a slightly modified version of the World Calendar that was created by the United States Congress in the 1950s. I have created a rough look at what it looks like here:
http://www.securemecca.com/public/NoMoreDST/US_Congress_Calendar.txt
The purpose of the calendar was to have every quarter start on a Monday which is the first day of the business week. Coincidentally instead of four Friday the 13ths it has none. I mention it is because the only pay check I ever lost was on a Friday the 13th. The reason I want it included is because I used to have a link to it and now it is gone and I cannot find any links to it any more. You may find it in the US Library of Congress but be careful how you search. It is not the Congressional Calendar. hhhobbit (talk) 08:35, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The months in this calendar totally lack any correlation with the lunar cycle, encouraging an alienation from Nature which was reinforced by other historical factors, and which has reached an extreme degree in the modern world.
Does anyone see a way to revise this into a neutral POV? Goldfritha 02:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Changed information on Jose Arguelles' proposal. The Dreamspell was not proposed in 1987, it was released in the early 90s. The reform proposal was known as The World Thirteen Moon Calendar Change Peace Movement http://www.13moon.com/cal_change.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.29.121.180 (talk) 22:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
How can the following statement be true?
"The 13-month calendar loses appeal with some when it is realized that it actually destroys quarters. Adding the 13th month is considered by some to be a disadvantage because the disruption it causes results in more problems than the calendar it aspires to replace."
One quarter would be EXACTLY 3 months and 1 week in length! 87.80.240.166 15:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is going to be made worthless, I can see. Someone went on a jihad seeking the deletion of articles, and now, all reference to calendars that were subject of deleted articles are going to be PURGED? It was suggested in AfD discussions that these calendars at least get a *mention* in this main article, but apparently, elimination was the goal. This proves the point I've been making at the AfD discussions - that deletionism is going to make this encyclopedia sterile and a useless resource. Even a paragraph noting that I hope people derive a lot of enjoyment making articles LESS informative.- Nhprman List 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem I have here is once again with the core, non-negotiable policy of attribution: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true". This is not some obscure part of Wikipedia, but one of the five pillars which fundamentally define the encyclopedia. If there are no secondary sources for a piece of information, it really has no place on Wikipedia, and the recently deleted calendars seem to have no sources beyond the creator. If someone could explain to me (preferably without making un-civil accusations of bad faith or the like) why these calendars should be mentioned, despite having no sources that would be appreciated. Cheers --Pak21 07:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- ... appears to think that information can be removed just because the home article for that material was deleted. This is not correct. If someone created an article on Ann-marie de Costa, and it was subsequently deleted as non-notable, we wouldn't then be required to remove "He is married to Ann-marie de Costa" from the Alan Carpenter article. In the same way, a calendar system may be too non-notable to have its own article, yet merit a brief mention in an overview article.
It is strange that I put up a drawing of a calendar on wikipedia this afternoon, in this section, including quoting as a source a national newspaper, and then someone removes it and says information cannot be put up without a reliable source and tells me to go to their chat if I want to chat about it. Isn't the best place to talk about perceived problems with a page the page itself? The first section starts with a note from wikipedia saying "This section does not cite any sources." but has that section been removed by the same person? They may be quite right, but seemingly going the wrong way about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 08:24, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
In the section on the change-over from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar, it says: "This was perceived by the public as missing those days, although they were in fact committed as several February 29ths during the preceding centuries."
I thought this was a myth; that is, that the public thought they had had 11 days taken from their lives. Wasn't it the case that the outcry was because they would have to pay their taxes 11 days earlier than usual?
I don't understand "committed as" - what does this mean? Wouldn't "restored" be a better term? — Paul G 14:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Two articles dealing with related subjects - the World Calendar, a uniform date for Easter and date notations - are at
http://users.bigpond.net.au/renton/301.htm and http://users.bigpond.net.au/renton/302.htm
Nercat (talk) 09:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I suggest someone to create an article called "Astronomically Correct Calendars Proposed". That article would list (and explain) all attempts thorough History to create Astronomically Correct Calendars... For example: Calendars that choose an Equinox day or a Solstice day for the first day of the year; Calendars that try to harmonize the course of the Moon with the course of the Sun (luna-solars); Calendars based on the course of other heavenly bodies, like Venus; or Zodiacal-based Calendars; you name it. Any thing but religious-based counting though. It would remove cultural bias from the debate without removing the calendars themselves from the debate, and it would also provide a "directory" within Wikipedia for people to research on non-biased Calendar Reform projects.
I, for one, am I supporter of a global calendar reform. I'm a Latin-American (Western under several points of view, non-Western under others) and I understand that the fact that, whether you are Western or Non-Western, it should not play any role on your opinion on what should be the best choices for a Calendar Reform. If you wanna know my opinion on a civil calendar, I believe the Jalali Iranian Calender is the most astronomically accurate calendar in civil use nowdays (and I'm neither a Muslin nor a Zoroastric either; but a Protestant); and I think the Era Anno Domini should be discharged because it does not have a Zero Year and also (and, mainly) because it's already proven that Jesus was born neither in December 25 nor in the year 1 BC.
Again, in my opinion, the best choice for a new counting of years would be via basing it on Scaliger's Julian Period; reason? Simple, most of our BIOS and software already use the Julian days for Java and PHP scripts in many gadgets and applicationes; all the astronomers got used to the Julian Days since a century ago, so it would be easier for us all to take the next March Equinox in 2010 AD as the Jalali day 1 ("Norouz") of the Jalali month 1 ("Farvardin") of the year 6723 of the Julian Period. And no need to replace the Prime Meridian to Tehran, just borrow the algorithm the Iranians already do. Frankly, I know no better option in which regards an astronomically-friendly Reformed Calendar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.25.88.202 (talk) 17:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I've proposed merging Symmetry454 here. The topic does not appear to have sufficient notability to merit its own article (Google books hits 0, Worldcat hits 0, Google scholar hits 1, JSTOR hits 0), but might merit a brief mention in this one. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
With no expertise in this subject matter, I have created a stub for the Hanke-Henry proposal and thought that an appropriate approach would be to have a section in the reform article providing Wiki links to other articles providing more detail on the various proposals such as Symmetry454. The alternative is cluttering the reform article which doesn't seem useful. Squeakycatta (talk) 08:58, 31 December 2011 (UTC) squeakycatta
Spring: 2 months or 55 days or 8 weeks from Monday. February, 24 days; March, 31days.
Summer: 3 months or 91 days or 13 weeks from Sunday. April, 30 days; May, 31 days; June, 30 days.
Canicula: 2 months or 62 days or 9 weeks from Sunday. July, 31 days; August, 31 days.
Autumn: 3 months or 91 days or 13 weeks from Saturday. September, 30 days; October, 31 days; November, 30 days.
Winter: 2 months or 62 days or 9 weeks from Saturday. December, 31 days; January, 31 days.
Yearend: 4-5 days. Yearend 1st, Friday; Yearend 2nd, Saturday. Yearend 3rd-5th, Sunday.
orienome (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
In the article, only the reform of the solar year is at stake, but the reform of 1582 was equally a reform of the lunar year. In other words, my impression is that the Gregorian reform as a whole has unhappily escaped the article.Ulrich Voigt (talk) 12:59, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Nikkimaria (talk · contribs) has removed links to calendars.wikia.com, referencing WP:ELNO without citing a specific part. I assume the reason for removal was the currently twelfth point listed there:
Open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors.
The Calendars site at Wikia lists several designs and proposals that lack the notability to be included in Wikipedia, hence may be of further interest to readers of this article. I don’t know any other site that covers as many calendars in a neutral fashion. If there is one please go ahead and link that instead, otherwise I believe this is a case where we shouldn’t take WP:LINKSTOAVOID too literal or as too strict and therefore allow links to Wikia. — Christoph Päper 11:55, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Brasilis Freak (talk) 21:13, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Do we have an agreed-upon list of advantages and disadvantages of calendar designs?
This should be applied to the articles on specific calendars, e.g. World Calendar, Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar, International Fixed Calendar, Symmetry454 Calendar etc. IFC is currently being tagged with {{fact}} by IP User 91.10.44.33 for this reason. — Christoph Päper 09:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Include A Bioregional Calendar as seen here: http://astuc.ca/abc.htm 66.203.191.30 (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Not done. Calendar reform proposals are a dime a dozen. No proposal should be added to this article unless it has been considered in reliable secondary sources. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:47, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Jc3s5h, go back to the "calendar reform" talk page and explain there why a national newspaper is not a suitable source for wikipedia leading you to delete a single sentence and image while the first whole section of the page has a comment from wikipedia saying "This section does not cite any sources" and you leave the entire section there. Maybe a non-sourced poor introduction to the page is setting up the page for failure? This really needs discussing on the pages talk page so a wider audience can contribute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 08:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Most of the page is not cited but you left it alone. You still didn't answer why. This indicates there is something else about the image you deleted you didn't like. This is particularly true because it did contain a citation, in the image, so your reasoning is invalid or you didn't even bother to read what you deleted. Were you just careless? If you are not willing to give a valid reason for deleting the image with citation then reverse your edit, otherwise it might be misconstrued as being a malicious rather than well intended edit.
Regarding your comment "But if somebody else wants to delete them it's fine with me.". This is rather a careless statement. You should be looking at the value or lack of it things add to the page not whether its something that's "fine with me" to delete or not. It shouldn't be fine with you if I delete the useful introduction one the page because it has no citations, unless I can put something better in its place. If things add value and don't have citations then I add a citation where I can, I don't just delete it because it disagrees with my sensibilities. Such methodology would simply lead to Wikipedia being the a reflection of opinions of people who have the most time to go around and delete things they don't like the look of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2404:4408:2023:EB00:9C9E:ABB1:BBC3:D09 (talk) 11:31, 27 September 2019 (UTC) Tgru001 (talk) 21:09, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Therefor your criticism isn't that there was no citation, but that the citation was not detailed enough so you delete the whole image. Rather a blunt stick approach but it has some logic. I guess you don't have access to the original newspaper either so you didn't want to take the time to refine the reference by adding a page number rather than delete it. Prior to 1940 the paper is on line as historic, easy to access. Later copies were originally in the public library held as bound year copies. These volumes by year took too much space so they moved them to microfilm. Converting them to an on line version is yet to happen. To get the exact page one of us would have to book time on the microfiche reader which is in high demand, go to the city center holding them, do the search, add the page number. When the copies of the paper past 1940 and prior to the paper going electronic comes on line it makes makes sense to add the page number and it's likely someone will when it happens. For now, putting that amount of effort into adding that level of detail to a citation that relatively few people in the world can read until they go online seems unreasonable.
What I would like to see is this page have a change of emphasis for which there may be easier to locate references. What are the drivers in society to develop calendars? Why in the introduction does it indicate that calendars just need to locate time in history using numbers to be a calendar and no more? How narrow is that? Prehistoric calendars (bone) had months. Before artificial light, at some stage, the human reproductive cycle was tied like many animals to the lunar cycle. This has evolved over billions of years before people could think of calendars, but is now apparently irrelevant? Months are arguably essential to a calendar involving humans and animals generally and by definition all calendars are made by humans. And weeks? Lunar quarters are weeks, much easier to count than a lunar cycle in days that can vary by days between months. And days themselves speak for themselves, they impact us even now though modern society tries to ignore them too.Tgru001 (talk) 21:45, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
You are jumping to conclusions. I did read the article when it was published in the newspaper. The year was noted in some literature I have from then but the issue of the newspaper was not noted. When I went on line to get the detail I found it was not there. You seem to be questioning more what I am doing then what I put onto the page. I have still to hear a substantiated reason for you deleting the image. I'm beginning to believe you did so on the basis of assumptions that were not correct. Now that your assumptions on which you based your edit are shown to be incorrect it would be consistent of you to take action to reverse your edit? Tgru001 (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Jc3s5h, I've seen you have rearranged the debate above from how it happened, perhaps to try and make it more useful. You still don't say why a you call the New Zealand Herald a local newspaper. The United Nations considers New Zealand a member nation. I can provide a citation showing this but you would probably criticize the source as not being authoritative (that's a joke). I am not just trying to be annoying with the citation question. Recently my edits included dictionary definitions of "calendar" and "reform". Uncertain as to the editorial process if any around Wiktionary I also use the Cambridge dictionary but both definitions were deleted. When a definition is required what dictionary's are considered suitable as a Wikipedia reference? The definitions source is not likely to change the meaning of the paragraph deleted but I am still unsure what source of a words definition wont be deleted by a well meaning editor. The definition of calendar reform at the top of the wiki page needs teasing out. One of the reasons I found this whole page confusing to start with is it attempts to entirely mix up the older definition and more modern definitions into a gooey mess. Calendar reforms of the magnitude of the Gregorian and Julian were defined as reforms because "broken" calendars causing pressures on society called for a change that came from society and the leadership. Those calendar reforms are mixed up with modern term which equates to something like "Various proposals of improved calendars that attempt to supplant the Gregorian." As I work down the page to separate out the two definitions a bit more cleanly I need a starting point that does not keep getting deleted. Otherwise the page will fall back into a gooey confusing mix of the two definitions again. Unless there is an opinion out there that the older and newer definitions can't be separated and can be used interchangeably? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 07:31, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
Astrolynx, I clicked on your user and you don't exist so I can't take your edit seriously. Especially when you call a classic calendar work translating old calendars outdated when it is used by publications I have read in the 1990s because there is not more "up to date" reference they wanted to use. If yoiu really think I should discuss edits on this page before making them then why didn't you? It's hard to take you seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 08:34, 30 September 2019 (UTC) Tgru001 (talk) 08:51, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
So I comment on the reasons for the change on the talk page as indicated above, as this was a criticism from Astrolynx who apparently had missed his opportunity to comment here before the change. Astrolynx then reverses the change again without talking about it here on the talk page before making his change either. Perhaps he has no coherent reason to offer here on the Talk page?Tgru001 (talk) 08:51, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi Jc3s5h, maybe I should have started a new section as I have never reversed the edit you made regarding a newspaper decades ago, I was talking about later edits I did, some of which Astrolynx reversed. Regardless of how good I am at citations in this field of endeavor this page is in poor shape just from the consistency of use of the definitions for calendar reform. I am trying to separate out the old meaning of "Calendar reform" from the newer meanings, something the article seems to have neglected. Even the subscript of the Page title says it has more than one meaning "Calendar reform or calendrical reform, is any significant revision of a calendar system. The term sometimes is used instead for a proposal to switch to a different calendar design." It seems logical to explain what is meant by a "significant revision" as opposed to ones that could be called not significant and therefore not "reform" in that sense rather than frequently use the term ambiguously. To say as the article does "There have been 50 to 100 reforms of the traditional Chinese calendar over 2500 years" without citation is so vague as to be meaningless as to whether they are "significant" in terms of the definition for the page, or even if they are reforms at all. To call the Islamic calendar a reform of some older one, without citations is just not sensible especially when the cited properly elsewhere in wikipedia it refers to the calendar as the beginning of an epoch rather than a reform. When I first read the article I had assumed it was only about proposals for reform, as historic calendar reforms are far better covered and cited under the separate calendar pages already in Wikipedia. I thought the scantly covered large reforms were just meant as examples of major reforms that stuck for long periods. Re-reading the article assuming the original editors did not make clear which of the definitions was being used in each context the article is highly ambiguous. My more recent edits started from the top of the article and worked down, separating out the information according to the historical use of the term "calendar reform" from more current uses. I thought I had done at least one citation well but Astrolynx decides it is two old a citation and deletes the lot. I admit citations in the arts area are not my forte. However the whole article has almost none of use before I started and I don't see the point in trying to dig up citations to support a structure that is too ambiguous to be very meaningful to start with. Astrolynx says changes should be discussed here first, but apparently this is also a grey area, because some edits they didn't change and the ones they did they didn't discuss here before Astrolynx made them. Nor has Astrolynx tried to engage other than reverting edits they don't like even if its just because in their opinion they are "outdated". I now can see clearly now why my original posting was reacted to so strongly by you and have never reversed it. You have been willing to take the time to engage. Astrolynx doesn't even seem to bother to have a user page much less engage in a useful way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 07:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Astrolynx. I understand where you are coming from. Please understand you are misquoting me when you say "Accadian Calendar really is as old as you claim". I don't claim this, I cite someone else who does not claim it either. She is speculating based on her translations of ancient texts. While you state otherwise you presumably understand I did not refer to Plunket's book or later reprints but the original proceedings. This was deliberate as in the article in her own words she says of her paper on the Acadian Calendar "It may seem that too much weight has been attached in this Paper to what can only be called a guess; but there is so much we desire to know". For you to say "it is hopelessly outdated and many of her claims were already dismissed when it was originally published" is stating what the author knew herself. Its easy to criticize others, but she is something much rarer, self critical. The piece I quoted from her article for Wikipedia was to do with how authors in the calendar field at the time of the publication were using the term calendar reform. Whether her "guess" pans out to be true, that the calendar changed little for thousands of years is for the experts to rebuff or not with archaeological evidence. Not for debate here. It is far more difficult for her to prove the Accadian Calendar hardly changed than for her detractors to prove it did as they only need to find a single significant change. Maybe that is why even 100 years later it still gets reprinted. But as I say, I was establishing how calendar reform was viewed historically. That was the quote. Not as proof that her claims represent a proof or are a perfect academic work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Astrolynx, I suspect your apology above is rather hollow for 3 reasons. 1)you call the published edit you deleted a proposed edit despite implying you did it mistakenly by apologizing. 2)you have not reversed the edit. 3)You are still not following basic wikipedia common practice of having a home page. Is this your only ID on wikipedia?Tgru001 (talk) 09:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
If the Accadian calendar had previously been mentioned on the page and how often it changed or did not, then my reference to it would not seem to imply that I was trying to introduce a calendar that was absent from the page entirely. Feel free to re-introduce and edit the comment to reflect your opinion, or even better add a reference to the Accadian Calendar that shows it changed every 50 years or whatever and therefore showed Plunket that any reform was not resisted by the religious at the time. I picked the Accadian calendar by searching for the term "calendar reform", trying to find original references outside the Julian, Gregorian and modern reform proposals that haven't stuck. If you can find a better one great, if you can't I think you have detracted from the page by removing all reference to one of the oldest calendars in the world which, if it wasn't reformed, was a prime historical candidate. Maybe that's why it isn't around any more?
As a more general comment. I think reputable authors at their time like Emmeline Plunket, who stick their neck out a bit by speculating using common sense to introduce new ideas and therefore debate should be appreciated, not dismissed or even ridiculed because their speculations may turn out to be wrong. Karl Popper might say something like, if you don't have ideas that are wrong so someone else can try and falsify them your knowledge wouldn't progress as quickly. Darwin's theory of Evolution started out as speculation and was ridiculed by peers. When Darwin became popular Lamarck was ridiculed. Now Lamarck's idea does turn out to have evidence to back it and is making a come back, albeit in a different form. My feeling is Wikipedia should be written to outlast popular perceptions of "reality" so ideas that held sway for a significant time need to stay in the record in the proper context. Readers reading any encyclopedia want ideas. I use to love reading a 1890's version of the Encyclopedia Britannica we use to have when I was young because it was cheap second hand. Knowing that what I read was outdated made it all the more interesting. I wish we had space to bring the Goliath with us when we moved!
I had remembered to log in but nearly forgot the tildes Tgru001 (talk) 23:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Astrolynx, I looked at your talk page and it is very nice. Great you advertise the pillars of Wiikipedia etc. But where is your home page? Wikipedia provides you with a home page for a reason and asks you nicely to fill it out. Without a home page it is easier for people to have multiple log ins on Wikipedia to conceal their activities and therefor real intents. Can you confirm AstroLynx is your only identity on Wikipedia? I don't want to waste the time of the administrators with a complaint but if you are unwilling to acknowledge that AstroLynx is you only identity on Wikipedia I will. My memory must be improving, I remebered the 4 tildes this time. Tgru001 (talk) 19:25, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
You repeatably use this page to tell me to sign edits with Tgru001 (talk) 08:43, 3 October 2019 (UTC) which I try and remember to do despite already signing them with a real user ID. Yet when I do the same to remind you of wikipedia etiquette when you only sign with a pseudonym and you say do it somewhere else? Where is the consistency? The same place as the consistency with critiquing other's work on this page? Tell me, before you criticize the forum I will bring it up in, tell me which forum you think deals with problems caused by people having multiple identities on wikipedia such as the problems I perceive, true or not, in you case?
Hi Astrolynx, thanks for restoring this section. As others changed this page to alter its sense without discussion I thought it was not against any rules to change it. I wouldn't want to delete only my parts of the discussions as it reduces the readability. The most useful part I found was you last post about where to address concerns, but if you think the rest is still useful I'll leave it intact.Tgru001 (talk) 03:58, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
My reading of citations requirements would indicate that using www.timeanddate.com is not suitable, particularly because it contains advertising, currently for Samsung cell phones. If I'm not mistaken while it is not a book it falls under "Self-published books, personal Web sites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." Rather than just delete it I'll try and find something similar first that falls within Wikipedia's guidelines better. Still may not be perfect, but better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 1 October 2019 (UTC) Tgru001 (talk) 19:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Astrolynx, I made the change discussed above and you have apparently reversed it leaving no reason. The citation I removed was that of a company with no overt authority to publish in this area or peer review and contained advertising. The image I replaced it with was a drawing of a calendar that demonstrated the similar information visually to assist the readers understanding what a historical calendar might look like but without the commercial content. Can you please explain why you deleted the published content?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
It is a stretch to refer to a typo in an image as an unreliable source. It was not even a citation. Are you so poor in reading? I read no mention of the missing day in the summary, it was blank at the time I looked. If there is a typo it can be corrected. I will do so and then reinsert the image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgru001 (talk • contribs) 09:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, that are promotional in nature, or that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions.
So in the case of timeanddate.com the samsung phone advert seems to have now disappeared, though could re-appear at any time, but I don't seem to see on the page any reference to editorial oversight. How does it meet the criteria you just mentioned "or with no editorial oversight"?
I did look up a bit more on timeanddate.com just now. It is even more bewildering now to me why it is used here. While their site does not explicitly say anything about an editorial process ensuring it's quality it does say
"Information on this website may contain technical inaccuracies or typographical errors. Information may be changed or updated without notice. Time and Date AS may also make improvements and/or changes in the products and/or the services at any time without notice. Time and Date AS takes absolutely no responsibility for any errors on the site. You use the information at your own risk." It does not inspire confidence that it attempts to meet WP:RS in any way.
Tgru001 (talk) 02:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
These sections seem to contain multiple examples sourced directly to their proposers, while citing no evidence that such proposals have ever received significant commentary from third party reliable sources. Per Wikipedia policies (i.e. WP:RSSELF for a start), they should not be included. I'd remove them myself, but the article seems to be locked. 86.143.228.87 (talk) 17:08, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Ten days were dropped so that October 5 became October 15 in 1582.
This restored the northward equinox to the same date in the new Gregorian calendar (20 March) as it had when the Council of Nicaea made recommendations in AD 325. Catholic states adopted this reform over the next century or so. However, the German Protestant princes rejected the Gregorian calendar in favour of Erhard Weigel's "Improved calendar", which they introduced on 19 February/1 March 1700. The date of Easter was calculated astronomically and the calendar died out in the nineteenth century.
Following scientific advances in the measurement of the exact length of the mean tropical year, in 1785 Barnaba Oriani proposed a political calendar in which the centennial leap years were those giving remainder 0 and 400 on division by 900. In the twentieth century, countries which had rejected Eastern Orthodoxy in favour of communism dropped the Julian calendar in favour of the Gregorian. Greece, the only remaining Eastern Orthodox state, adopted Oriani's calendar on 16 February/1 March 1923. On 10/23 March 1924, together with the Greek Orthodox Church, Greece adopted the Revised Julian calendar. A number of Orthodox churches have followed suit on varying dates, the latest being the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church in 2012. In this calendar, devised primarily to prevent Greece diverging on 1 March 2000 (29 February Gregorian), only those centennial years (those ending in 00) that leave a remainder of 200 or 600 upon division by 900 are leap years, decreasing the average year length to 365.242 days.
To justify multiple locks, which affect not only this article but also Adoption of the Gregorian calendar and Gregorian calendar, a wholly fictitious "long-term abuse" page has been created, which could have been drafted by Boris Johnson's lawyers. The first allegation reads "[...] has a long history with Jc3s5h. She routinely edit wars with Jc3s5h especially in calendar articles." Needless to say, none of these allegations is supported by evidence ("diffs"). Perhaps the most bizarre is the claim that the editor has alleged an administrator to be a fles-deralced xes rekrow (scan these words from right to left to get their meaning). 94.0.175.75 (talk) 07:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
In the section #Reference 4 goes to www.timeanddate.com Tgru001 proposes using http://www.math.harvard.edu/computing/javascript/Calendar/ as a source. This appears to be a copy of Fourmilab by John Walker.
I object to using the version at Harvard for two reasons. First, it is used in the context of a Javascript example, an is not presented as a correctly functioning calendar converter. Whoever put there did not undertake to keep it up to date with any corrections Mr. Walker might issue. Also, the credit to Mr. Walker is marginal and the hyperlink give one the impression this example and Mr. Walker have some connection to Harvard; I doubt that is true (but I'm not sure).
I use the original version myself, and have never observed any errors. That said, Mr. Walker is a successful software developer, but I have not seen any publication indicating he is qualified in the area of calendars. I'm not sure he would satisfy the guidance at WP:SELFPUB. Also, the software has a peculiar convention that I regard as incorrect. Walker describes this convention as follows:
While one can't properly speak of “Gregorian dates” prior to the adoption of the calendar in 1582, the calendar can be extrapolated to prior dates. In doing so, this implementation uses the convention that the year prior to year 1 is year 0. This differs from the Julian calendar in which there is no year 0—the year before year 1 in the Julian calendar is year −1. The date December 30th, 0 in the Gregorian calendar corresponds to January 1st, 1 in the Julian calendar.
All in all, I'd rather find some other source to cite. But some of the good sources are at https:www.usno.navy.mil/USNO which is not available to those outside the US. Other good sources are print, which is not ideal for a page that is contentious and frequently vandalized. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:14, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Sure, feel free to find another source. I'm happy with the good sources of print you talk about. We can't start excluding print because of vandalism. No print references on wikipedia would make it a bit sad.Tgru001 (talk) 02:45, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Cotsworth calendar. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 15#Cotsworth calendar until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 (he) talk contribs subpages 17:50, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
@35.139.154.158: has repeatedly removed disadvantages and advantes from the International Fixed Calendar article for lack of reliable sources. Their argument is not entirely wrong if Wikipedia rules are applied very strictly, but I still think that such sections are helpful in these articles: The lists of pros and cons are similar for various calendar reform proposals like the World Calendar, Hanke–Henry Permanent Calendar, Symmetry454 or leap week calendar in general. So we should probably reach a consensus how to deal with them or find reliable sources that can be applied to multiple of them. — Christoph Päper 09:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
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