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Afars also live in Djibouti as well as Eritrea and Ethiopia, so their number should be slightly larger than 1.5 million, but do not know by how much. Also Somalis reside in the Northeastern part of Kenya, which should make their number slightly larger than 15 million if not more than 20 million.
It's good to know that others have suggested these five branches, but... which others? - Mustafaa 23:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Has anyone here heard of a Proto-Cushitic language? I've come across vague references on the internet. Gringo300 (talk) 19:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Pathawi (talk) 06:03, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
References
To the anonymous IP who added some questionable material: This article is about Cushitic, not about whatever POV you are pushing with that last addition. I will assume good faith, but you must demonstrate how that information you added is relevant to the topic at hand. Rewrite it or discuss it here first or I will continue to remove it as irrelevant. It is so far-fetched from the topic, I don't even know where to begin to rewrite it. Make it relevant or leave it out. Perhaps it is more relevant at Afar language. (Taivo (talk) 16:47, 20 November 2009 (UTC))
Adding all that material about Nilo-Saharan languages in ancient Cush is immaterial to this article. The name "Cushitic" is from the ancient region of "Cush" and that's all that need be said. The article does not claim that all the languages of the ancient region of Cush were Cushitic or even Afro-Asiatic. It just says that's the source of the name. Entering all that irrelevant information about Nilo-Saharan languages being spoken in Cush as well borders on POV pushing. --Taivo (talk) 15:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
This article so far is all about classification but seems to be lacking in linguistic description or analysis such as chracteristic phonology, syntax and so on. Alas I am not qualified to fill the gap but it is surely missing essential information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arberryday (talk • contribs) 02:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
The article fails to give a good outline of the subdivisions of the Cushitic language family. The Cushitic languages can be divided into North(Beja), South, Central(Agaw) and East(further divided into Lowland and Highland). Rather then giving the sub-branch of the subdivisions, like the East Lowland and Dahalo. Runehelmet (talk) 17:23, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Pathawi (talk) 06:33, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Pathawi (talk) 07:18, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Here are explanations of my most recent revision, concerning official statuses of Cushitic languages:
Pathawi (talk) 06:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
The constitution of Eritrea indicates that "the equality of all Eritrean languages is guaranteed" . By this, it means the native languages of its officially recognized ethnic groups. Perhaps this is a bit nebuluous, though, so I've rephrased it to Beja, Afar, Bilen and Saho are the Cushitic languages spoken in Eritrea, where all natively spoken languages are equally recognized within the constitution (by the way, we should stick to linguistic sources and/or government sources for the legal status). As to the constitution of Somalia, it indicates that Somali is one of two official languages, alongside Arabic. That is why its Article 5 is pluralized official languages . Also, I am well aware that langue nationale in French does not necessarily denote an official language. That is why I wrote that Somali has official language status at the country level in Somalia rather than that it is simply a national language. This way, the language's status there (official language) is less likely to be confused with its status in Djibouti (national language) and Ethiopia (regional working language). Anyway, I've pointed this to Djibouti Law #96 and arranged the languages by speaker size. Soupforone (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
The issue of langue nationale doesn't related to Somali, but to Djibouti—I was referencing your source for the claim of Djibouti's being a national language. (I don't think you had a French-language source for Soamlia.) Your current source doesn't do better for Somali and Afar, as best I can tell: It says that instruction in schools should occur in Somali and Afar, which makes the situation in Djibouti for Cushitic languages equivalent to that of Eritrea. It seems to me that the following kinds of status are meaningfully different:
The last of these seems to me to be beside the point for the present location: Whatever claim is being made impressionistically, there, is better made thru the population numbers.
Somali is explicitly, legislatively the national language of Somalia. Arabic is accorded explicitly second language status. The distinction is legislatively—constitutionally—marked. Here, it makes sense to say that Somali is the national language, because it's a meaningful claim & it's true.
That all Eritrean languages' equality is guaranteed doesn't actually say much, especially when those languages aren't named—tho you & I know what they are. I don't know how we can say that the constitution recognises them when the constitution doesn't name them. On the other hand, the Ministry of Education pays people to teach in particular languages & produces materials in these languages. (I was stumped, by the way, for a moment by your comment that we should use government & linguistic sources; I didn't know what you were referring to. The best I can tell, you would like to exclude a UNICEF report on Eritrean language policy. Is that what you're referring to? As this doesn't conflict other sources, & I don't know of any reason that UNICEF should be considered unreliable—unlike, say, Ethnologue—no, I disagree. It's a relevant source.) Pathawi (talk) 18:37, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
The Djibouti Law #96 indicates -- "Article 5 : L’Education et la Formation sont dispensées dans les langues officielles et dans les langues nationales. Un Décret pris en Conseil des Ministres fixe les modalités de l’enseignement en français, en arabe, en Afar et en Somali." -- "Article 5: Education and training shall be provided in the official languages and in the national languages. A decree issued by the Council of Ministers sets the terms for instruction in French, Arabic, Afar and Somali." Given the Djibouti constitution (which indicates that French and Arabic are the official languages ), this legal clause establishes three things-- (1) That official languages and national languages are distinct in Djibouti; (2) Afar and Somali are the national languages; and (3) Both the official and national languages serve as languages of instruction. This is not the same as in Eritrea, where all the languages are constitutionally equal (i.e., there's no official/national dichotomy). Also, the constitution of Somalia indicates -- "Article 5. Official Languages[...] The official language of the Federal Republic of Somalia is Somali (Maay and Maxaa-tiri), and Arabic is the second language." This means that both languages are official therein , as also established in an earlier government charter ("The official languages of the Somali Republic shall be Somali (Maay and Maxaatiri) and Arabic" ). As to UNICEF, it is not a linguistic/expert source nor a governmental source. I've therefore pointed the language of instruction stuff that it indicates for Eritrea to the original paper it cites by the linguists Sava and Tosco. I also arranged the paragraph by language since this is a linguistic subject. Soupforone (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Again, as you've agreed above, langue nationale and national language do not have the same implications—as is made very, very clear by the distinction in the Djiboutian law you cite. To translate directly without further comment is to mislead. And, again, Somali's status is constitutionally different from Arabic by the language you cited. (It in fact specifies that Somali is official, and then gives Arabic a status different from that.) I think the Tosco-Sava switch is extraneous & trivial, & I don't think your justification has merit (UNICEF is an educational institution, & I don't think it's academically considered to lack credibility on factual matters such as this), but I don't object to the source in itself, and the information is the same, so I haven't changed it. Pathawi (talk) 06:13, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
There are two official languages (plural) per the Somalia constitution, Somali and Arabic . Also, the national languages in Djibouti are Afar and Somali per the Djibouti Chamber of Commerce . It is national languages≠official languages in the latter country. Soupforone (talk) 14:55, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
The Somali Constitution does not declare two official languages. In both English and the original Somali, the phrase "official language" ("afka rasmiga") is used in the singular, while in the same section Arabic is identified as the "second language" ("luqadda labaad"). It is false to say that Arabic is a co-official language with Somali: It is the second language. A correct statement might be that Somali and Arabic both have constitutional recognition for Somali. In an article on Cushitic languages, the unusual status that only one Cushitic language has—that of official language for a country—seems more pertinent than a less specific status which it shares with Arabic. إنت بتركّز على اللغة العربية كده ليه؟ بتقصد تعمل إيه بالظبط؟
Also, la Chambre de la Commerce de Djibouti is a private sector entity. (I thought you said we should stick to governments & linguists!) Its saying something doesn't make it official. Nonetheless, it doesn't say anything meaningfully different. I don't think facts are in dispute on this one: Djibouti's official languages are French and Arabic. It is possible to find sources that describe Afar and Somali as langues nationales, but this doesn't mean that they have any official status, as "national language" would imply to many English-language readers. I'm sure you can find a government source describing Afar and Somali as langues nationales, but I'm not going to support using the corresponding phrasing in English unless it makes it clear up front that this is in contrast to an official language. Pathawi (talk) 16:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Article 5 of the constitution of Somalia is actually labeled Official languages (plural), and Somali and Arabic are the indicated languages therein . These are the official languages in the original constitution and the later governmental charter as well . This is why the CIA describes the official languages as "Somali (official, according to the 2012 Transitional Federal Charter), Arabic (official, according to the 2012 Transitional Federal Charter)" . What there isn't is a law that indicates that Somali is the sole official language of Somalia (an Arab League member state) because it simply is not. As to the Djibouti Chamber of Commerce, it is a government agency . Soupforone (talk) 05:53, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
You are right about the Djiboutian Chamber of Commerce: link. But I don't think facts are in dispute on this one: Djibouti's official languages are French and Arabic. It is possible to find sources that describe Afar and Somali as langues nationales, but this doesn't mean that they have any official status, as "national language" would imply to many English-language readers. I'm sure you can find a government source describing Afar and Somali as langues nationales, but I'm not going to support using the corresponding phrasing in English unless it makes it clear up front that this is in contrast to an official language.
The CIA World Factbook is sometimes useful, but neither it nor prior constitutions supersede the present constitution. In fact, the shift from an older constitution in which English & Italian were second languages while Somali & Arabic were official to one in which English & Italian are out, & Arabic is demoted to second, is significant. The current wording—the wording I used before—mentions Arabic & provides its specific status, as well as Somali's. A correct statement might be that Somali and Arabic both have constitutional recognition for Somali. In an article on Cushitic languages, the unusual status that only one Cushitic language has—that of official language for a country—seems more pertinent than a less specific status which it shares with Arabic. إنت بتركّز على اللغة العربية كده ليه؟ بتقصد تعمل إيه بالظبط؟
At this point, we should either have an explicit conversation about the purpose of the paragraph & the meanings of the terms national language & official language, or we should seek mediation. Pathawi (talk) 07:07, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
I never wrote that Afar and Somali were official languages in Djibouti, but instead that "national languages≠official languages in the latter country". This is exactly what both the Djibouti Law #96 and the Djibouti Chamber of Commerce establish . That interpretation that Arabic in Somalia was demoted to non-official status in the constitution of Somalia is not indicated by the constitution nor by any other relevant legislation. It obviously was not since a prerequisite of membership in the Arab League is having Arabic as an official language. Anyway, it appears that this discussion has gone stale, so I've asked for a Third Opinion. Soupforone (talk) 15:22, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
In the past couple weeks, an individual without an account has removed Somaliland from the list of regions where Cushitic languages are spoken multiple times. Each removal has introduced other problems, so I've undone them and requested that if the individual remove Somaliland again they try to be neater and explain the reason for the removal. Again, Somaliland was removed today and again there was a syntax error in the removal, but the individual did include their reasoning: Namely, that Somaliland is not internationally recognised as a state. Mathglot undid that edit, stating in the comment: 'country or not it specifies an area where Cushitic languages are spoken'. I am in favour of retaining Somaliland, but I wonder if there's any policy or MOS guideline that would suggest one course of action or the other. It is not clear to me that there is. Without any specific guideline, it seems like there's no grounds for removal. (In lieu of a policy: Armenian language lists Artsakh as a place where it's an official language; Russian language lists Transnistria. Retaining Somaliland is at least consistent.) Pathawi (talk) 11:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Somaliland is a de facto sovereign state who's claimed overlord (Somalia) has no jurisdiction over. Therefore including it makes sense.
However Puntland and other regions don't claim independence from Somalia but rather are part of its federal system. Your inclusion of Puntland for example is unwarranted as Puntland is by default already mentioned through Somalia and Puntland considers itself to be an autonomous region within Somalia and a model for a Somali central government Dabaqabad (talk) 02:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
They are spoken primarily in the Horn of Africa (Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Somaliland) as well as the Nile Valley (Sudan and Egypt), and parts of the African Great Lakes region (Tanzania and Kenya).with:
They are spoken primarily in the Horn of Africa, with minorities speaking Cushitic languages to the north and south in Egypt, the Sudan, Kenya, and Tanzania.
I'm a graduate student who works on Beja. I haven't published anything, and I have not incorporated my divergent views into this article or Beja language. The section on the classification of Beja strikes me as really unnecessarily large. Robert Hetzron argued in 1980 that Beja was not Cushitic. Hetzron was a legitimate, influential linguist, & his viewpoint matters, but I think that the identification of Beja as a Cushitic language is basically accepted by all living linguists working on Cushitic languages. Every other linguist mentioned in this section identifies/d Beja as a Cushitic language. This isn't a matter of active dispute. I think this section may have undue prominence from its length. I propose eliminating the second ¶ entirely until the final two sentences, which I'd rewrite as:
Didier Morin (2001) assigned Beja to Lowland Cushitic on the grounds that the language shared lexical and phonological features with the Afar and Saho idioms, and also because the languages were historically spoken in adjacent speech areas. However, among linguists specializing in the Cushitic languages, the standard classification of Beja as North Cushitic is accepted.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pathawi (talk • contribs) 08:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
In the current version of this article, in section 3.2.1 (Typological characteristics/Phonology/Nouns), we read:
Unless I'm missing something, this example seems particularly ill-chosen, with the singulative and plural forms identical. Maybe it's a mistake, but even if not, can we get a more appropriate example? --Ekaterina Colclough (talk) 20:11, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
That wasn't me who added that information that was @105.163.2.211 so I don't know why your mentioning me. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
@Cookiemonster1618: I'd like to remove the Britannica reference on Cushitic languages being tonal. The Appleyard & Mouss sources describe Cushitic languages as having pitch accent, which can be meaningfully different from tone in some theoretical approaches. Under those approaches, it would be inaccurate to describe any Cushitic language as tonal. I think Britannica, as a tertiary source, doesn't strengthen what's already supported by two secondary sources (WP:RSPRIMARY), & the added term could be confusing. Are you okay with removing this? Pathawi (talk) 00:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Just a heads-up for watchers of this page: there is a newly created Proto-Cushitic language. A challenging, but certainly interesting project, but it has been started in an extremely problematic fashion with almost zero information about the proto-language and unsourced claims about the Proto-Cushitic homeland based on an obvious mix up with the question of the homeland of the entire AA family. (Not to talk about apparent (IP-)socking issues). Austronesier (talk) 11:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
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