Talk:Greek junta

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Dictatorship in Greece listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Dictatorship in Greece. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  02:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

How many people were actually jailed by Greek military junta

I cited a source I believe to be reliable ("Clinton Says U.S. Regrets Aid to Junta in Cold War", https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-nov-21-mn-35991-story.html) which estimated hundreds of thousands were jailed by the Greek military junta for political reasons, and this was removed. After some research, I agree this is higher than some estimates, but still believe this is plausible. For example, another article ("George Papadopoulos; Led Military Junta in Greece ", https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jun-28-mn-50904-story.html) estimated that 10,000 were arrested in just the first few days after the coup suggesting a total in the tens of thousands at least since it was in power for 7 years. Maybe hundreds of thousands refers to number arrested. I would like to add to the article but thought I should check here first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UQal (talk • contribs) 19:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move 9 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:42, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

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Greek military junta of 1967–1974 → Greek junta – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. buidhe 06:13, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• According to ngrams, there are more than twice as many hits for "Greek junta" as "Greek military junta". The date is an unnecessary disambiguation because this is the obvious primary topic of "Greek junta". buidhe 06:13, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support. The word "military" can certainly go. I can go either way on the dates. Colin Gerhard (talk) 07:12, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• If moved, please make sure to follow up with a move for Category:Greek military junta of 1967–1974 to match. --Gonnym (talk) 09:20, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Strong oppose The reason for the qualifiers in the present title is that there were other military and political juntas in Greece's political past. As such a move to simply "Greek junta" would be ambiguous. Dr. K. 22:01, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, but none of the other greek dictatorships are commonly referred to in English as "Greek junta". As you can see on ngrams with zero smoothing, the term began to be used in 1967 (there are no hits before that as far as I can tell). buidhe 22:07, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• I think you have a point. I struck the oppose. Dr. K. 00:27, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support. I am for "Greek junta," the other information is not necessary to differentiate it. From my experience Greeks most commonly refer to it as "the junta." The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 17:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Citation request for name Επταετία

@Buidhe: I'm having a hard time figuring out why this term for the dictatorship needs a specific citation... It's a common, well-known name for the event in Greek (evidenced by a cursory google search for "Επταετία") and as far as I know, there's no controversy around its use. —Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 20:09, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Skoulikomirmigotripa, straightforward translations generally do not need translation, but the fact that terms x, y, and z are commonly used in Greece should ideally have a secondary source saying something like "Greeks often refer to the event as x, y or z" buidhe 20:20, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Ah okay, thanks for the explanation. Is a source using this term for the junta enough of a source or do we require a source which give an explicit definition. The latter might be harder to find since its a common and informal term. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Ideology of the regime

Some users put the greek junta as an example of a fascist state, in the category of fascist states here at Wikipedia but I haven't seen enough of reliable sources and wide recognition to whole regime and state is described as fascist. Far right, authoritarian, military dictatorship yes, but fascist no, at least not in a neutral academic researches and publications. Not every authoritarianism and totalitarianism is fascism. That types of labels need to be wide recognised and accepted by academic community, historians, political scientists, and to whole country and whole regime and policies in that period be labeled as fascist need serious number of sources stating exactly that. 178.220.244.242 (talk) 02:09, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"Fascism" is a famously vague term, with no generally accepted definition. The regime never officially described itself as Fascist, but neither did the Estado Novo, and Francoist Spain was conflicted. We still categorise the latter two as Fascist. The Greek junta was openly sympathetic to 4th of August Regime, which we also categorise as Fascist, with Ioannis Metaxas claiming his ideology to be similar to that of Antonio Salazar. The regime is often described as fascist in Greece, but not universally. --Antondimak (talk) 18:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

There's multiple academic sources that characterize the regime as fascist, and we do have the instance of self-proclaimed fascists such as the Golden Dawn and Italian neo-fascists praising and having links to the regime. I think the characterization is warranted, especially considering the lack of sources that dispute such a description. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 14:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

How many Greeks were killed by the military regime?

Besides the 1973 Athens Polytechnic Uprising with over 20 victims, what was the total number of those who were murdered by the dictatorship? 99.248.73.113 (talk) 19:34, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Not right wing

You can’t have a right wing dictatorship. The right believes solely in personal governance. A dictatorship by default is leftist zx 85.132.252.36 (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Nonsensical. Right-wing politics is about supporting for hierarchy and social inequality. There have been numerous right-wing dictatorships. Dimadick (talk) 17:07, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Does this article need to be rewritten?

@Compassionate727: Why does the article have this cleanup tag? Jarble (talk) 04:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jarble: I think I was looking at sentences like As it turned out, the constitutional crisis did not originate either from the political parties, or from the Palace, but from middle-rank army putschists. and Still, up until 1973, the junta appeared in firm control of Greece, and not likely to be ousted by violent means. and The rapid dismantling of Greek democracy had begun. that convey little or no concrete information but do summarize or interpret information already presented. These are common and useful when making an argument, but Wikipedia articles are not supposed to make arguments, merely describe the topic as objectively as possible. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 15:48, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

CIA

The article had this comment at the end of the lead:

It has been said to have been heavily influenced by the CIA.

This claim was added in October 2023, with no discussion. I am having trouble even understanding what it's supposed to mean. Apparently it doesn't mean that the CIA caused the coup, because later in the article we say:

Although there have been persistent rumors about an active support of the coup by the U.S. government, there is no evidence to support such claims. The timing of the coup apparently caught the CIA by surprise.

So what exactly does it mean? And why is it so indirect ("it has been said")? -- who said it? The lead is supposed to reflect the body of the article -- what is this claim reflecting? --Macrakis (talk) 01:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

It is reflecting that junta leader Georgios Papadopoulos had been trained by the Central Intelligence Agency. Per his own article:

• • "He served in the KYP Intelligence Service from 1959 to 1964 as the main contact between the KYP and the top CIA operative in Greece, John Fatseas, after training at the CIA in 1953."^[1]
  • "Papadopoulos is widely reported to have had certain ties to the Central Intelligence Agency,^{[note 1]} and has also been reported to have undergone military and intelligence training in the United States during the 1950s.^[2][3]"
  • "On 1 July 1973, The Observer published an investigative journalism article that accused the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) of engineering the 1967 coup, further writing that Papadopoulos was known among senior officials in the Joint United States Military Aid Assistance Group in Athens as "the first CIA agent to become Premier of a European country".^[4][5] The following day, during CIA agent William Colby's confirmation hearings to be Director of Central Intelligence, Colby was asked in response to the article if there was any justification for the assertions. Colby denied that the CIA had engineered the coup or that Papadopoulos was either a CIA agent or otherwise paid by the CIA, adding that "[Papadopoulos] has been an official of the Greek Government at various times, and in those periods from time to time we worked with him in his official capacity.".^{[6][non-primary source needed]}"
  • "In 1977, John M. Maury, a CIA agent who was Chief of Station in Athens during the coup, wrote in an article in The Washington Post that the CIA had considered swaying the elections to prevent Papandreou from winning by promoting moderate candidates. The agency ultimately decided against the plan. As the election drew near, CIA agents were vaguely prodded by their Greek contacts about the possibility of a coup. Maury argues that the CIA's choice to officially condemn suggestions of a military takeover and remain uninvolved led to the agency being taken by surprise by the events of April 21, 1967. He concludes: "That we seriously attempted neither to influence nor to injure them is still taken by Greeks of all kinds as proof of U.S. complicity, or at least acquiescence, in the excesses of the dictatorship. And when the dictatorship eventually fell, to the shame of its perceived U.S. support was added the humiliation of perceived U.S. defeat."^{[7][relevant?]}" Dimadick (talk) 08:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

1. TV documentary "ΤΑ ΔΙΚΑ ΜΑΣ 60's – Μέρος 3ο: ΧΑΜΕΝΗ ΑΝΟΙΞΗ". Archived from the original on 6 April 2008. Retrieved 2016-02-07.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: bot: original URL status unknown (link) by Stelios Kouloglu via Internet Archive
2. Georgios Papadopoulos – Obituary, The Guardian, "During the 1950s, Papadopoulos underwent military training in the United States, which gave rise to the suggestion that he had been recruited by the CIA."
3. Obituary: George Papadopoulos, The Independent, "Between 1959 and 1964 he served as a staff officer in the Greek Central Intelligence Agency (KYP), following a period in which it is claimed that he was trained by the CIA in the United States."
4. Foley, Charles (1 July 1973). "Greek dictator in CIA's pocket" (PDF). The Observer. No. 9, 492. p. 1. Retrieved 6 June 2020.
5. "London Paper Asserts C.I.A. Engineered the Coup in Greece". The New York Times. 1 July 1973. p. 14. Retrieved 6 June 2020.
6. Committee On Armed Services, United States Senate, Ninety-Third Congress (1973). "First Session On Nomination Of William E. Colby To Be Director of Central Intelligence; July 2, 20, and 25, 1973". Nomination Of William E. Colby; Hearing Before The Committee On Armed Services, United States Senate. Washington, D.C.: United States Government Printing Office. pp. 3–4. Retrieved 6 June 2020.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
7. Maury, John M. (1 May 1977). "The Greek Coup: A Case of CIA Intervention? No, Says Our Man in Athens". Washington Post. Retrieved 6 June 2020.

Thanks for this.

Yes, there were certainly connections between the CIA and Papadopoulos, as your first two bullets point out. But the sentence "It has been said to have been heavily influenced by the CIA." is far too vague and general. What is the "it" that is said to have been influenced? Who said this? When? In what context? In what way was it influenced? Also, your third and fourth bullets say that the CIA didn't cause the coup, although many Greeks did and do believe it did -- which strangely isn't mentioned in the article. The US government did support the junta after it came into power. Not sure how much of this belongs in the lead, though. --Macrakis (talk) 16:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

error on Seferis death date

Article says, "His funeral, on 20 September 1972, turned into a massive demonstration against the military government." The year of death is incorrect. 71.60.11.213 (talk) 00:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

1. The extent of these ties as reported in the sources varies. See for example:

   • Shadow Warrior: William Egan Colby and the CIA: "In 1967, a group of neo-fascist colonels had staged a coup and seized power in Greece. They installed George Papadopoulos, who had been on the CIA payroll off and on since the 1950s, as president."
   • Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA: "Most of it came from members and supporters of "the colonels"—the Greek junta that seized power in April 1967, led by George Papadopoulos, a recruited CIA agent since the days of Allen Dulles, and the KYP's liaison to the agency."
   • Dr. Andreas Constandinos again confirms in America, Britain and the Cyprus Crisis of 1974: Calculated Conspiracy or Foreign Policy Failure? that William Colby had admitted "the agency had 'worked with' George Papadopoulos in the Colonel's 'official capacity'".
   • Daniele Ganser in NATO's Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe: "The new ruler George Papadopoulos had operated as KYP's liaison officer with the CIA ever since 1952 and within the KYP was known to be the trusted man of CIA chief of station [Jack] Maury."
   • The Independent, in George Papadopoulos's Obituary: "Between 1959 and 1964 [Papadopoulos] served as a staff officer in the Greek Central Intelligence Agency (KYP), following a period in which it is claimed that he was trained by the CIA in the United States."
   • The Economist, in their Obituary post: "He had been attached to a Greek army intelligence unit that had links with the CIA."
   • Greek City Times, in Papadopoulos, a controversial Greek figure: From electrifying villages to betraying Cyprus: "April 21, 1967, will always be known as a day that forever changed Greek history when the military took over the government and installed CIA-connected Colonel Georgios Papadopoulos into power."
   • William Blum, in quote: "A CIA report dated 23 January 1967 had specifically named the Papadopoulos group as one plotting a coup, and was apparently one of the reports discussed at the February meeting. Of the cabal of five officers which took power in April, four, reportedly, were intimately connected to the American military or to the CIA in Greece. The fifth man had been brought in because of the armored units he commanded. George Papadopoulos emerged as the defacto leader, taking the title prime minister later in the year. The catchword amongst old hands at the US military mission in Greece was that Papadopoulos was "the first CIA agent to become Premier of a European country"."