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I have replaced the former text which was unreferenced and seemed outdated. The definition quoted was not a definition of a hide. Waysider1925 (talk) 16:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I have restored 'Northern' before Danelaw because Darby p.10 makes it clear that only the Northern part used carucates; hides were used in the Southern Danelaw. I have restored 'County' in the 3rd para because Stenton pp.644-6 spoke of Counties. The examples of Northants and Staffs came from the same source. Actually he gave 4 examples but I thought 2 were sufficient for the present purpose. I have also restored 'not calculated from below' because I think it makes an important point; many people including the author of the original article think that a hide was a certain area of land, in which case the total of hides in a county would have to be calculated from below. Darby p.10 wrote 'not built up from below'. I thought that 'calculated' made my point as well and I did not want to just copy the source. I have restored my sentence in the last para about Domesday Book. The information was collected in 1086 but the book was not completed until some time later. I do not think the exact date is known. I have a couple of other points but will have to come back to them later.Waysider1925 (talk) 17:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to have appeared to neglect your comments. Not so, but I have been tied up with other things and I wanted to find time to re-read parts of Stenton. I follow what you are saying and will come back as soon as possible.Waysider1925 (talk) 17:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Still not quite finished and now away on the Danube till beginning of September when I will resume. Waysider1925 (talk) 17:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
My understanding is that a hide represents the area of land required to support a family. This has given rise to the myth amongst Christians that when Caedwalla gave a quarter of the Isle of Wight to the Church he gave 300 families to be converted, whereas the sense of Bede's account is that he gave their land, having killed them first. The Isle of Wight is today 147 square miles, though some has been reclaimed and some eroded. The hidage quoted by Bede was 12,000 hides or families. The area would therefore depend upon the fertility of the ground, whether it contained a fishery and of course the size of the putative family.(147 divided by 1200 is 0.1225)I understand that generally it was the equivalent of 2 oxteams ploughing per day.--Streona (talk) 09:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I will now try to deal with the various points you made way back in August. No objection to the small letters for northern etc. I prefer a quotation to start with a capital when it is the start of a sentence and had a capital in the original.
I quite agree that the original version did not make it sufficiently clear that it related to the eleventh century and that there should be mention of the early hidages. However I thought that your footnote was not sufficient, as it would mean very little to a reader with no prior knowledge of the subject. I thought it best to deal with these early documents in the main text - not full accounts, as they can be found elsewhere, but enough to show why they are relevant to an article about the Hide and to enable the reader to decide whether he wants to find out more. I hope you will think the new paras do this.
Regarding Domesday Book I feel it is necessary to make it clear that this gives the assessments for estates throughout the whole area covered by the survey (admittedly not quite the whole country) and therefore to mention carucates & sulungs as well as hides.
I have changed the description of a sulung, because I think it is wrong to suggest that it always represented exactly 2 hides. Stenton certainly did not think this. As I understand it, there was an exchange of land in two different counties and the agreement for this stipulated that a sulung was to be taken as equivalent to two hides, but this seesm to have been an 'ad hoc' agreement referring to two particular parcels of land and with different owners or different land the agreement might well have been different. In origin they were quite different and hardly comparable, a hide being a peasant holding and a sulung the area that so many oxen could plough.
You may think the final paragraph only repeats what has already been said, but I felt it was useful to sum up in this way, as many people referring to the article will come to it expoecting to be told that a hide was a given area of land.Waysider1925 (talk) 16:11, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I have come back to this article which was originally drafted by me but has subsequently been altered. Some of the alterations I can accept and others I am neutral about, but some I do not feel improve the article at all. In particular the headings broke the article up in an illogical way and some, which should only be minor headings, were given major status, which made the article hard to follow.
I have been looking for a suitable reference explaining the origin of the word and have now found one and added a new section to deal with this and I have rearranged the whole article in a way which, I hope, will make it easier to understand.
I think the choice of categories is wrong and wll look into this.
I hope it can now be re-assessed or would welcome suggestions for improvement.
Waysider1925 (talk) 17:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted the C-class assessments as the article has been considerably altered and (I think) improved since this assessmennt was made. I hope that it can be re-assessed
Waysider1925 (talk) 18:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Waysider1925 (talk) 13:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
History of the County Palatine of Lancaster" This book was written in 1836 so long after fields began to be plowed by horses but with reference to earlier times when they were plowed by oxen.
fee, and when taxed at 6s. 4d. makes the sum of 100sh. Therfor a knight's fee, according to the first, contains 480 acres, and this agrees with the third MS. If a virgate with 2d MS. be 40 acres; but if, as the first hath it, only 24 acres, it differs much from both, yet not above 484 recknd masse.
"But after some time, according to the goodness of the ground, is less, and other times of larger extent for the bairness therof.
"And ther is a respect to be had to the Lord's bounty, or parcimony, sometimes giving more sparingly, and others more profusely, as also the services imposed upon fees, sometimes according to the customes more easily, other times ex pacto graviora.
The Various Parts of a Knight's Fee.—1. Hida or Hyde is a portion of land which is set apart for the alimony of the family, or that will yearly maintayn one plow, so that Hide is sometimes taken for a mansion, as when it is sayd in the charter of king Ethelbert, or about the year 845, that each 10th mansion should belong to the sendee of God* W. of Mamsbery sayth, that to the end of the world that the 10 Hide should be to cloath and feed the poore.
"2. Taken for a family, for what Beda cald familia, other Authors and the Saxon Interpreters call a hyde, or hydilandes.
"3. Taken for a carucat of land sufficient yearly to maintain a plow.
"The quantity of a hyde is disputable, for Gervis of Tilbery says, a Hyde in its original institution did consist of 100 acres, but by W. of Mamsbery 96 acres.f
"The Annals of Waverly, An. 1083. The king sent 5 of his Justitiaryes throughout England to inquire upon oath, how many hydes, i. e. jugera, might be sufficient in each Town yearly to maintain a plow.
"And the same Mathew Paris addes the same year, how many cartel might be sufficient for the village of one Hyde.
"Domesday book in fine Cestresliire, (Land between the Ribble and the Mersey,) Tit. Derbei Hundred.
"In the Hundred of Derbei vi. carucates make a Hyde.
"Regis Inte, cap. 24. by the name of Hydes, are known thos 12 portions which are reported to be given to the companions of Joseph of Aramathea in the territory of the monastery of Glastonbury.
"Hydare is as much as to taxe the land by Hydes.
"Hydatus is taken for land that is to be taxed by Hyde.J
"Hydage is a tribut that is gathered from each Hyde.
"And in paying of taxes the antient maner was to describe the kingdom by Hydes; and king Edelred, to oppose the Danes, caused each 320 hydes to send a ship, and each 8 to give a coat of male and Helmet.
"W. C. (William I.) received from each Hyde, A. D. 1084, 3 sh.§ W. Rufus from each Hyde 4sh.
"H. I. for marrying his daughter to the Emperor, A. D. 1110, from each Hyde 3sh.
"Carucata Terree, a carucate of land, is such a portion of land as is designed for the work of a plow, or plow land, with Math. Paris a Hyde.
"The charter says, that every tenth mansion shall be devoted to the servants of God (Famulis Dei) which is a very different thing.
t Not William of Malmesbury, but the Malmsb. MS. I Hidata(not hidatus) is land that is actually taxed, and hidanda, land to be taxed. ^ 6 solidi, or shillings.
"A carucate of land is sayd to be so much land as a plow can work in seasonable Chap. time, containing 120 acres, yet various as the ground was more easy, or harder, or U' troublesome to be tild.
"Virgata Terra.—3. Virgata Terrae, yapb land, (yard land) sc. mensura quantitas pro ratione loci diversi, in some places 20, in others 24, in others 30 acres. "4. Fer Ungate.—10 acres makes a ferlingate. "4 ferlingates makes a virgate, "4 virgates makes a hyde, "5 hydes makes a knight's fee. "Carucat. Terra?. The Abbot of Rochester demanded against Albereda de Basinburn 8 car. terra? and 2bovats of land, ut jus Ecclesia, of which each carucat of land contained 8 bovats terra mensurata. 27 H. 3. Rot. 1.
"Rob. Constable gave his Lordship of Therlesthorpe, whereof 8 carucates makes a knight's fee.
"Herbert de St. Quintin gave 3 bovats of land, whereof 48 carucates makes a knight's fee.
"H. fil. Syrvardi de Kerden gave 3 bovat of land in maritagio.
"Hi fil. Ad<s de Blackburn unde 16 bovats—sint aquales de forinseco.
"Caruagio and Carucagio, a tribut imposed upon plows. In charters of priviledges many being free from the Tributs termed quieti a carucagio, when the R doth taxe his land by carucates.
"Jugum Terree.—5. as much ground as a yoke of joyned oxen can plow in a day. It appears that at first a manor was divided into various portions sufficient for the nourishment of so many country familyes, together with the yoaks of oxen, and from thence they were cald juga, or yoaks.
"Jugatio is said to be a tribut that is payd a singulis jugis.
"Bouata Terree, or Oxgangs.—6. It is sayd to be as much ground as one oxe can till; but in an antient MS. 8 bovats of land doth make a carucate, and 8 carucates a kt's fee. 18 acres makes a bovat of land. An oxegang, as much as serves the neck of an oxe, but this must be understood of oxen joyned, or a yoak of oxen.
"Ferdella Terra.—7. Out of an old MS. is the 4t part of a virgate of land, for saying that 10 acres makes a virgate, and 4 virgates makes a hyde, and 4 hydes a kt's fee.
"Ferdendeal, or farandeal, with Cowil, is the 4t part of an acre, which we call a road, or rood. Crompton sayth Quadrans is the 4t part of a penny, and obulus the half, and the shilling contains 12 pennyes, and a pound 20 shillings, and that in the originall Quadrata, obulata, denariata, librata terra, sc. \ of an acre, I of an acre, the acre itself, solidata, 12 acres, librata 12 times 20 acres, sc. 240. 12.187.95.253 (talk) 13:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
I have read with interest Wilfridselsey's alterations and am grateful to him (or her) for bringing Dr Faith's article on the hide to my attention. However the authorities cited in her article include her own book and I have been reading this book which seems to me to make further alterations necessary. Also some of the alterations made do not seem to be justified by the article. Also some deletions and changes in order do not seem to me to be improvements. I wrote a large part of the article in its last previous form and therefore have considerable interest in the matter! I think it is a pity that Wilfridselsey's proposals were not discussed here first. The information about the geld does not seem to me to belong in the lead and I feel it is best to leave most of this out of this article. Anybody who needs information about it should look in the article on geld. I am working on some further amendments.Waysider1925 (talk) 17:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
At the moment, I have a source for the Holy Roman usage of hides. I'll dig into Continental Saxons as authoritative sources get uncovered. Certainly, the British Isles Germanic and Norman inhabitants inherited a mature system. LTC (Ret.) David J. Cormier (talk) 13:47, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
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