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This article was nominated for deletion on 27 April 2024. The result of the discussion was keep. |
A fact from Horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 24 January 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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Added sources and content welcomed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:56, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
At present, the first sentence of the article states, "The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as the most exceptional in American history." Since the sentence states that there has been wide acclamation to this effect, at least one reliable source to that effect is needed, either here or later in the article, and more than one source is preferred. In addition, clarification is needed. Does this mean the most exceptional of any American in history? That seems unlikely; surely there have been professional horsemen who were better. If the comparison is to other presidents or to other generals, that should be stated. John M Baker (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
It is proposed that the Cincinnati (horse) article be merged into this article. The Cincinnati (horse) article is a stub, and all of it's content is better covered in this article, so there would be no need to copy text from that article into this one. All the images of that article are contained in this article. There has been no additions to the narrative in the Cincinnati article since 2012. The proposed article meets all criteria for merging with this article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:21, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
This is about as far from NPOV as you can get. Sure, he probably liked horses and he possibly had a knack for dealing with them. But to blow that up to such an insane story where he was the horse whisperer who could do things no other man ever could is silly. At this point, the best we can do is delete the article because the topic does not meet WP:GNG. Perhaps a few sentences can be incorporated into the article about him. There are and were thousands of people who grew up around horses and enjoy(ed) riding and competing with them. Polygnotus (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as among the most exceptional[citation needed] in American history., yeah, less than ideal. Simonm223 (talk) 19:42, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
If the claim is well sourced it will be easy for you to quote some reliable sources here that directly support the claim made in the article (not just good or great, but "among the most exceptional in American history"). How much time do you need? For example I can check back next week, if that suits you?You keep refusing to provide sources for that claim because there are none. To solve that problem I suggested describing him as an "expert horseman" or describing it as "exceptional horsemanship". Polygnotus (talk) 22:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
There is consensus against including this claim, and there are no reliable sources that support it. That is the reason for the canvassing and constant stream of ad hominems. There is no reason to believe this problem is limited to this article. Perhaps WP:NPOVN can help check other articles? People view historical figures similar to how others view football stars, and they argue who is the best of them all. Then they rewrite history to suit their view that Ronaldo/Messi is the best ever. It is very weird if you are an outsider. Polygnotus (talk) 07:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Claiming that someone is the best at or among the most exceptional at something in a group of over half a billion people is an exceptional claim. Quote: "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." My repeated requests for sources have been ignored. The Verifiability policy says: "Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source." This claim has been repeatedly removed but Gwillhickers keeps adding it back in. Polygnotus (talk) 10:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Name | Link | First sentence |
---|---|---|
Gwillhickers | diff | Ulysses S. Grant, a Civil War hero and a two-term U.S. President, has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as the best horseman in American history. |
Gwillhickers | diff | The Horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as the most exceptional in American history. |
Montanabw | diff | The Horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant was acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as exceptional. |
Gwillhickers | diff | The Horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as the most exceptional in American history. |
John M Baker | diff | The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as exceptional. |
Gwillhickers | diff | The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as among the most exceptional in American history. |
Polygnotus | diff | The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as exceptional. |
Gwillhickers | diff | The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as exceptional an exceptional horseman. |
Gwillhickers | diff | The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as among the exceptional examples in American history. |
Polygnotus | diff | The horsemanship of Ulysses S. Grant has been widely acclaimed by his contemporaries and historians as exceptional. |
Further, the claim of exceptional, or any other such reference, is not made in comparison to other people, certainly not to "half a billion people"Haha. How can something be exceptional, but not relative? If we interpret "American" to mean "The United States of America" then there were over half a billion people part of "American history".
look for corroborating sources that support this idea, hopefully to the letter". Now you are trying to write WP:BACKWARDS. Polygnotus (talk) 20:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
the best horseman in American history(without any sources to back that WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim up). I changed it to say that his horsemanship was exceptional. Polygnotus (talk) 18:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Unsurprisingly, everywhere I start digging I find copyright violations. FML.
Comparing the source to the Wikipedia article:
− | + | Among the horses at the academy was a dark bay horse that was so untamable that it was about to be condemned. Grant selected this beast for his horse. Every day he would devote time to it, bridling, mounting and riding it about with ease, while the entire class would watch and admire in amazement his excellent command of this horse. |
Text added here. In the (unreliable) source this is a story told by a fellow cadet, but now it is reported in wikivoice as fact. Polygnotus (talk) 12:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Comparing the source to the Wikipedia article:
− | + | After the Civil War Grant had gained possession of [[Ulysses S. Grant National Historic Site|White Haven]] previously owned by his wife's father [[Frederick Tracy Dent]]. While he was president he transformed the estate into a successful horse-breeding farm and designed its large horse stable. Completed in 1871, the stable was large enough to house 25 horses, all of which were either received as gifts or purchased by Grant. Overall he owned [[Thoroughbred]] and [[Morgan horse|Morgan horses]], but also enjoyed raising other breeds. |
Text added here. Polygnotus (talk) 13:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
To check whether this is a fluke or a pattern I checked another article. I selected Einar Holbøll because it was recently written and he has a silly name. I then picked the first reference containing a link (because references to books require me to find the actual book which takes more time).
Comparing the source to Einar Holbøll.
− | + | Christmas Seals were soon adapted by other countries, including Sweden, Norway, Iceland and the United States. Subsequently, the association between Christmas seals and their usage with the fight against tuberculosis became prevalent throughout the twentieth century. |
Text added here.
I know this is offtopic here but it is important to know that this is a widespread problem, and the tip of the iceberg.
These were relatively easy to find because they were online, but who is going to check all those books to find the rest of the copyvio? And the other 122 articles created by Gwillhickers and their sources? And the articles they didn't write but contributed to? Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations? Polygnotus (talk) 13:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
you need to quote the source in question and compare it to my editing, something which you failed to doWhat do you mean? There are 3 examples above. There is a difference between copypasting and then changing/reordering/deleting a few words and writing your own text based on factual information in another text. Polygnotus (talk) 21:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
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