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I saw the {{ibid}} template being used in the references section which asked editors to replace "Ibid" with named references.
I attempted to do just that but found that a named reference wouldn't quite cut it since they referred to different paragraphs in the same document. I figured the best thing would be to fill out the whole {{cite web}} template as best I could. I figured that someone would fix it further if need be.
Someone reverted my edit without comment, so I don't know what I did wrong. The current page still has the Ibid reference and the {{ibid}} template asking users to replace it.
Can someone else fix it "properly"?
Heavy Joke (talk) 15:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The article needs to be edited for the redundancies, and to address the issues related to the tags: *The original research is fairly blatant.
As I stated specifically above, the article needs editing especially for the fairly blatant WP:OR. An examaple is the section on 'dogma.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception#History_of_the_dogma
The only citation is to an article on the ewtin.com website which does not support the original research.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/marya2.htm
The tags have been removed without any improvement to the article. The tags need to be put back so that other editors will see the problems and can contribute to the remedy.Malke 2010 (talk) 17:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
The Catholic encyclopedia is widely, I mean widely used within Wikipedia. I see no reason against it being a WP:Reliable source. That discussion has nothing to do with this page. Catholic encyclopedia is used all over Wikipedia, so I see no reason why it should be questioned just here. Again, this seems to be raising a higher standard here regarding the Catholic encyclopedia than elsewhere in Wikipedia. I see no problem with using Catholic encyclopedia. History2007 (talk) 19:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
I went in to correct a small spelling error in the Protestantism section and was floored by paragraphs upon paragraphs of hidden text. (see here.) While I absolutely agree that this gigantic block of non-referenced "information" does not belong in this section (or anywhere on WP, for that matter) I don't understand why it's still included in the edit field. There are no comments or instructions and I'm not seeing anything in the Talk history. I'm too tired to pour through the history right now but I will if need be. I'd like to just remove the block entirely as it just makes for some distracting clutter while editing but I would love to know if there's a reason for this. 03:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocrasaroon (talk • contribs)
Afterwriting's change of dogma to doctrine on grammatical grounds is theologically incorrect and introduces errors in the article. Needs to be reverted ASAP. He says he needs no theology lesson.....but the article itself says that it is a dogma. So his change is incorrect, period. History2007 (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Should the Anglican belief in Our Lady of Lourdes be mentioned? Since there is an Anglican shrine at Lourdes, and the Anglican Communion officially approved of the apparition (although stating it is not necessary to believe in, but is encouraged)... and the Apparition called herself the "Immaculate Conception", I feel like it should be in the Anglican section.. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Spain's official Patron Saint is Our Lady of the Pillar. The other principal Patron is Saint James the Greater of Compostela. Why are you removing the Philippines from the patronage title and retaining other countries when the Philippines has had that title way longer, since 1571? And how come we cannot tag the Manila Cathedral, dedicated to the Immaculate Conception on the page? Racist and separative. How demeaning to the readers!
Oh come now Esoglou, you don't need to BRD on me buddy - we could have just discussed it. I will not argue the point because it is not worth the debate, not because I agree with it. But the Aparecida statue has an unknown artist, no one knows what theme it represents and the crowds have assigned the IC theme to it at will perhaps to due to the hands, but that is not a definite indicator. There is no artistic basis for that assignment except popular acceptance. They could have assigned Queen of Heaven. It is anyone's guess what the artist intended. And it resembles no other IC representation. In fact the oversized crown is not typical of IC. But if you want to call it that, for old time's sake I will not argue. History2007 (talk) 08:40, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
I think this article should begin on the same lines as that on original sin: "Original sin is, according to a theological doctrine, humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Man." That article does not say that original sin is a dogma. Strictly speaking, the dogma in that case is about original sin: it is not original sin. In the same way I think that the dogma here is not the immaculate conception of Mary, and that her immaculate conception is not, properly speaking, a dogma but is instead something that, according to a dogma, occurred. My doubtless imperfect attempt to express this was immediately reverted. Should it have been? Esoglou (talk) 16:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I rationalised the section on Definition of the dogma, which has two accounts of the circumstances of the Papal Bull - one refers to the definition "above", the other repeats in a slightly fuller form the definition (but referenced to only an excerpt and not the full text).
I also changed the paragraph which included that the dogma "declares with absolute certainty and authority that Mary possessed sanctifying grace from the first instant of her existence" which seems to me misleading, as the word existence is not in the Papal Bull, and could be taken to imply from Mary's active rather than passive conception which I don't think is what the dogma means. See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm (I think the Catholic Encyclopedia has the Imprimatur.)
It was reverted, and the repetitiveness is still there, and it says something is certain that is not actually in the dogma.
Blue watcher 17:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bloovee (talk • contribs)
"From the first moment of her existence" is well-attested, but it's not what the dogma says, and begs the question, "When is the first moment of her existence?" (Active conception, passive conception, animation, birth?) If the phrase is generally (and authoritatively) used, it may be a minor point, but it still seems odd to say that that the dogma declares "with absolute certainty and authority" something it doesn't actually say.
Rationalising the repetition is a separate matter, nothing to do with interpretation or opinion, just tidiness. Blue watcher 01:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bloovee (talk • contribs)
I have added a note to the talk page of the article The Immaculate Conception. It seems anomalous to me that that page discusses a fairly obscure novel rather than the Christian doctrine and I suggest this be rectified. --Lo2u (T • C) 18:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Please correct the grammatical errors and spelling mishaps presented in the Patronage of the Immaculate Conception for Philippines? Can we not attach a link to the Cathedral-Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Manila, as related to the patronage of the Immaculate Conception while Brazil can have a special link attached to the Nossa Senhora Aparecida Basilica? It is the highest seat of the Roman Catholic bishopry in the Philippines. Why the cultural favoritism?
POPE BENEDICT XIV - NON EST EQUIDEM - 1767 "Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe as the Patrona y Reina de Mexico, Emperatriz de las Americas e Islas Filipinas."
His holiness, PAPA PIO XI officially declared that Our Lady of Guadalupe was the patroness of Philippines at one time while Philippines IN 1938! Why no mention of this? Yet you will mention Rosa Limana and Santa Potenciana? Very selective and narrow of Wikipedia American editors.
This was replaced by the Immaculate Conception in 1942 by POPE PIO XII IN 1942 in IMPOSITI NOBIS papal bull.
ACTA APOSTOLICA SEDIS - 1942 - PAPA PIO XII
INSULARUM PHILIPPINARUM BEATISSIMA VIRGO MARIA TITULO "IMMACULATA CONCEPTIO" PRIMARIA UNIVERSALISQUE PATRONA ET SANCTAE VIRGINES' PUDENTIANA AC ROSA LIMANA PATRONAE SECUNDARIAS DECLARANTUR. -IMPOSITI NOBIS 1942
The secondary patrons of the Philippines----all according Papal declarations are Our Lady of Guadalupe, Santa Pudenziana and Santa Rosa de Lima.
Please correct and allow the tag for Basilica-Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception, informally known as Manila Cathedral and let things be fair if you are also going to allow Nossa Aparecida of Brazil to have their link.
And then one of you Allmighty-Wikipedia editors REMOVED a Photograph called "Retablo of the Inmaculada Concepcion" (1574 A.D.) photograph in Cebu city, Philippines dating back hundreds of years ago yet replace the photo with the current Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Washington D.C. USA when it was patronized much much later----and you Americans don't even have a statue honoring the Immaculate Conception NOR a liturgical office authorized by ANY Pope for inside that Washington Basilica like Spain, Mexico or the Philippines and the Spanish or Hispanic cultures have annual public holidays and grand processions every year but we don't get credit for it.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Immaculada_concepcion_de_baclayana-retablo.jpg
Cultural favoritism on Wikipedia by almighty American editors who are biased and cherry-picking their content. And it is so obvious that American Catholics have very little regard for the Immaculate Conception title since the Guadalupe honors are given much more precedence and attention in many American Parishes. Yet no credit is given for older patronages here in Wikipedia and Brazil and American only gets to claim a link to their Basilica. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.121.23.173 (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
We now have Immaculate Conception of Saint John the Baptist. Is that so? If so, someone should phone the Pope and inform him to have them say something about it in the Catechism.... I think that needs to be Afd-ed. Just not the case. History2007 (talk) 22:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I understand that editing the Immaculate Conception comes under heavy scrutiny, and I have labored two hours of my precious time to add the following valid sources.
I inserted an expanded set of information regarding the Papal Approval of His Holiness, Pope Pius IX regarding the Immaculate Conception. I added the dates when it was first approved, then published. Both documents were signed by Cardinal Fransoni, prefect for the Congregatio pro Gentium Evangelizatione at the time. The source is from the same sourced used elsewhere in this article, and is backed by prominent Vatican researcher Mr. Mark Shea of EWTN in 1996.
I also expanded the patronage of Immaculate Conception from Pope Gregory XIII for the Philippine Islands. This is referenced by a Pastoral letter issued by the Conference of the Bishops of the Philippines dated February 2, 1975. I also have in my reference a book I have my possession called Ynang Maria: a written documentary regarding various Marian Icons in the Philippines. It is found on PAGES 60-61.
Please kindly allow the links of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington D.C. and Cathedral-Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Manila to remain there. It does no harm but allow your readers to learn more about two great buildings valuable to historians and novelty researchers.
Thank you. LoveforMary (talk) 05:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary.
In numerous places, this article refers to things that 'Catholics believe,' 'Orthodox Christians say,' or 'Old Catholics do not reject.' Forgive me if this is nitpicking, but isn't it more correct to say something like 'The Catholic Church teaches' or 'Orthodox Christian dogma states'? The current phrasing is, in my opinion misleading. As an example, the line 'Catholics believe Mary "was free from any personal or hereditary sin"' seems to speak for every Catholic everywhere, and in my own experience many Catholics hold personal views that are at odds with their Church. To really state what Catholics or Orthodox Christians believe, in my opinion, should require citing a poll showing that the belief is actually widely held outside of Church leadership and theologians.
However, I'm hesitant to go through and make this change because I don't know how Wikipedia treats churches - is it accepted practice to use 'members of the church believe' interchangeably with 'the church teaches'?
Thanks,
- Julien —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.75.8.245 (talk) 07:30, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Along the lines of these notes, I feel compelled to raise the question as to why you cannot state that the "Roman Catholic church" believes this, that, or the other, instead of saying The Church believes... etc. The entire premise of stating The Church believes... is no less than to foster catholicism as The Church, and no other legitimate church, but "ours" is relevant. Talk about dogma. To a substantial portion of the world, Roman Catholic, or any other Catholic denomination does NOT represent orthodoxy nor orginality to the 1st Century church. And not to be inconsistent, but that paradigm should be equally presented for any denomination. While all churches should strive toward the original intent and accuracy of the christian faith, the idea that all churches outside of catholicism are heretical, is still the tactical approach of the Vatican. This only fosters what many christians heartily believe, that the RC church is guilty of an immaculate perception. 96.255.209.185 (talk) 19:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC) A. Augustine — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.209.185 (talk) 19:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
The original Latin is: "ab omni originalis culpae labe praeservatam immunem." The article should be changed to reflect the correct Latin root. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.96.223 (talk) 22:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Labe is correct. It is the original Latin term. Sine Labe Concepta. But ancient antiphons also refer to the sin as Macula: such as Tota Pulchra es Maria, et Macula non est te.
Macula or Labe are both good. It doesn't make a difference, really. The same concept is there. LoveforMary (talk) 00:12, 4 February 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
I have edited down the lede as it repeated the statement of the dogma. I also must insist that it make clear that this is something that Catholics— that is, those in communion with the Church of Rome— hold in contrast to most of the rest of Christendom. Mangoe (talk) 21:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Why do you have to say something like that? Its common sense. If you are not Catholic, then you don't subscribe to the belief. I know you're Anglican and all that----but to me, that is just trolling. You dont see us editors go to Moslem pages and troll their beliefs by comparing them with ours. This isn't the platform to do that. Your Anti-catholic sentiments are unnecessary. So much anger, jEEZ. LoveforMary (talk) 22:25, 3 February 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
POV. POV. POV. POV!!!
This is not the platform to do that ok? You don't get to come to article and change the wording to suit your religious beliefs against Marian dogmas. This is NOT the platform for it. GO edit the section on Anglican views below and make it your own. But don't vandalize the introduction. It was already fine for so many months and you come here and remove the Latin definitions because you think its too wordy! LoveforMary (talk) 22:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)LoveForMary
Assumption is held by the Orthodox Churches, yes. But this is DISTINCT from the Immaculate Conception. Those two concepts are different and your Anglican view is not merited on this article. You can start a section on Anglican view on the Assumption of Mary if you want. Again, POV. LoveforMary (talk) 22:59, 3 February 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
I wasn't attacking. You were insisting to put your Anglican views on a ROMAN CATHOLIC article. There is a difference. This is not the platform for it. The Latin definitions that were placed there were good and synonymous with Vatican documents. You removed it! Why? Because you dislike the promotion of RC articles without Anglican views challenging it. LoveforMary (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
You know what? If you really want to give your input regarding Anglican beliefs AGAINST the Immaculate Conception, there is a section placed there under Anglicanism. Just make sure your info is well-documented and has verifiability for other readers. There is no need to alter the introduction to suit your single-religious belief otherwise we would have to accommodate EVERY single religion in the introduction. Do u get it? The Anglicanism section is all yours, you know so much about it. Go ahead. But don't impose it on the intro. Like what you said "Not all Christians outside the Roman Ctholic church, especially Anglicanism agrees with this belief". Seriously??? LoveforMary (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
What was wrong with the introduction in the first place? It was fine all these months. What needed to be changed? You keep insisting that its "wordy" but they are all cited properly by other past editors using the Latin definitions from the official Vatican website. Nobody is censoring you for your contributions, except that the article was fine in the first place. LoveforMary (talk) 23:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
I'm not scared to take out the word official. But I just want to point out that Im really really upset that you had to take out the Latin definitions previously placed there by past editors. Those editors worked hard to consensus to agree on that Latin definition, and you just walk in here and take things out because you deem its too wordy. It was absolutely fine from the beginning without your Anglican inserts and you know it. LoveforMary (talk) 00:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
Anyway, this is how Wikipedia eats life. Minor irrelevant discussion with no encyclopedic value, lots of "genius level talk" and before you know it a day has passed.... And any IP with a heartbeat and a modem can change it in 3 months anyway. A waste of time discussion from the very start. Congrats to all participants here.... This discussion can add zero encyclopedic content but is about "removing Catholic POV from an article on Catholic theology" in the name of wordiness.... The wisdom of that attempt is just breathtaking, just breathtaking.... way to go.... How about removing physics POV from all physics articles next... that would be just as wise and useful...History2007 (talk) 09:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
As I said here, this revert re-added incorrect links; Immaculate (disambiguation) is now Immaculata (disambiguation), and the link to Immacolata (character) is unnecessary as she's included in the relevant dab page. Additionally, the separate hat notes make clear what the different pages are for: one disambiguates the article's title (Immaculate Conception (disambiguation)) while the others disambiguate terms that happen to redirect here. The "see also" tag is a bit confusing here since it usually implies the listed articles are related in topic, not that the titles are the same. As such, I've restored the earlier hat notes and correct links.--Cúchullain t/c 16:08, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Would the editor now going by the name of User:TreasureIslandMediaBoss try to defend his edit-warring bold edit that, among other things, sourcelessly maintains that the Immaculate Conception means that Mary was "directly" (how could it have been indirectly?) filled with "the" (is this English?) sanctifying grace by God "throughout her entire lifetime" (not just a matter of her conception then?) Esoglou (talk) 06:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Then fix the article yourself and make it plain English easy to understand. You guard this article all the time. You should be responsible to prevent foolish edits trying to complicate the lead. You are letting these people make VOLUME 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 OUT OF A LEAD which should be PLAIN and EASY to READ. TreasureIslandMediaBoss (talk) 06:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh just shut up and do your proper job and stop letting these people clown the article all the gotdamn time. TreasureIslandMediaBoss (talk) 06:50, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
That Pope Pius XII consecrated the dogma in 1942???? Are you that obtuse? Those words you see there are MY EDIT WORDS. they are SIMPLE, BRIEF and EASY to read. Compare those Simpleton words with the BS Grandeur "flowery crap" that the other Protestant self-serving editor inserted there, which YOU IGNORED. That damn useless REDUNDANT worthless verbose run-on sentence lead was longer than Princess Diana's wedding train. FACEPALM. TreasureIslandMediaBoss (talk) 06:58, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Sick of the trucking Protestants WHO KEEP HIGHJACKING THIS ARTICLE and inserting THEIR VERBOSE imaginations on what the Immaculate Conception means.
At the end of the day, I want a CLEAR CONCISE SIMPLE article that is easy to read, easy to understand, and easy to share. Rats who act like Armchair experts should know better than to mess with the Lead, every 15th of August every 8 December and COMPLICATE THE WORDING of a Simple definition. NOBODY knows what your words mean, USE Plain English. This is not the article for Brain Surgery!
Furthemore, inserting crap details like "Pope Pius XII consecrated the dogma in 1942" is totally BS! QUIT HIGHJACKING THIS ARTICLE, you Rambunctious Protestants. Go back to Luther's coffin and stay there! TreasureIslandMediaBoss (talk) 06:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
It was claimed in the last revert that I introduced "elevated vocabulary" - I did nothing of the sort. I merely shuffled word order, so as to prevent confusion about what was meant by "former" and "latter" because there were three things being mentioned in the text. I am still not happy with the wording, because "former" and "latter" could still be confusing, but the previous text was more unacceptable to me. I don't have the time now to look at it, but I am sure that it can be phrased elegantly and clearly. Elizium23 (talk) 16:30, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
<nowiki>http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/t211-regarding-wikipedia-s-abuse-of-st-bernard-of-clairvaux-via-paolo-sarpi#282</nowiki>
As a further favor to my fellow editors, it is currently the 82nd footnote. - Exodus2320 (talk) 22:34, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
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Is there space for Ælfric_of_Eynsham's view? It's not immediately where in the article it would go. Springnuts (talk) 22:28, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
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The section about the IC dogma being drawn in response to the political situation of the day surely needs a very strong reference or it has to be removed. RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 08:49, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
I added Tiepolo's 1767 painting to the gallery even though there are quite a few examples already, because I thought the representation of Mary was unusually naturalistic, to balance the more iconic examples. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 02:14, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
User:Rafaelosornio, thank you for your edits, and I apologise that the space available for me to explain my reversion was inadequate. For that reason I'm doing it here. The diffs are set out in the following table, and I hope this helps clarify matters.Achar Sva (talk) 12:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Reverted text | Curent text | Source (quote) | Comment |
---|---|---|---|
Empty | it is not in the story of Adam and Eve,[1] | - | You're correct, the source doesn't support the statement. would be better to use Toews, who is quite explicit. Other sources are also possible. |
The emergence and initial development of the idea of original sin are found in reflections of bishops and theologians during the Christian church's first four centuries:[2] | The idea developed incrementally in the patristic writings (the writings of the early Church fathers, or theologians) in the centuries after the New Testament:[2] | The reverted text is word-for-word identical with the source on page 37. | The current text is from page 38. |
the authors of the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Epistle of Barnabas assumed that children were born without personal sin; Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch took universal sin for granted and did not explain its origin from Adam; and while Clement of Alexandria did propose that sin was inherited from Adam, he did not say how.[3] | the authors of the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Epistle of Barnabas assumed that children were born without sin; Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch took universal sin for granted and did not explain its origin from Adam; and while Clement of Alexandria did propose that sin was inherited from Adam, he did not say how.[3] | See Wiley here. | The only difference between the two is the insertion of the word "personal" qualifying sin. You seem to be under the impression that Wiley is saying that the author of Hermas was saying that children were born without personal sin but with original sin, but this is not the point: the point is that Hermas says children are born without sin. |
It was Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) who fixed the meaning of the basic terms of the doctrine.[4] | It was Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) who fixed the meaning of original sin. | "Augustine fixed the meaning of original sin in the fifth century." | The source supports the current text, not the reverted text. |
I have checked the references. Thanks. You're correct. Please check the "Original sin article talk section" Rafaelosornio (talk) 12:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
IT WAS REMOVED:
The Encyclical Mystici Corporis from Pope Pius XII (1943) in addition holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal".[5] In this, Pius XII repeats a position already expressed by the Council of Trent, which decreed "If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema."[6]
When defining the dogma in Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX explicitly affirmed that Mary was redeemed in a manner more sublime. He stated that Mary, rather than being cleansed after sin, was completely prevented from contracting original sin in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race. In Luke 1:47, Mary proclaims: "My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour." This is referred to as Mary's pre-redemption by Christ. Since the Second Council of Orange against semi-pelagianism, the Catholic Church has taught that even had man never sinned in the Garden of Eden and was sinless, he would still require God's grace to remain sinless.[7][8]
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (Mary being conceived free from original sin) is not to be confused with the virginal conception of her son Jesus. Catholics believe that Mary was conceived of both parents,[9] traditionally known by the names of Saint Joachim and Saint Anne. In 1677, the Holy See condemned the error of Imperiali who taught that St. Anne in the conception and birth of Mary remained virgin, which had been a belief surfacing occasionally since the 4th century.[10] The Church celebrates the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (when Mary was conceived free from original sin) on December 8, exactly nine months before celebrating the Nativity of Mary. The feast of the Annunciation (which commemorates the virginal conception and the Incarnation of Jesus) is celebrated on March 25, nine months before Christmas Day.[11][12]
Bernard of Clairvaux in the 12th century raised the question of the Immaculate Conception. A feast of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin had already begun to be celebrated in some churches of the West. St Bernard blames the canons of the metropolitan church of Lyon for instituting such a festival without the permission of the Holy See. In doing so, he takes occasion to repudiate altogether the view that the conception of Mary was sinless, calling it a "novelty". Some doubt, however, whether he was using the term "conception" in the same sense in which it is used in the definition of Pope Pius IX. Bernard would seem to have been speaking of conception in the active sense of the mother's cooperation, for in his argument he says: "How can there be absence of sin where there is concupiscence (libido)?" and stronger expressions follow, which could be interpreted to indicate that he was speaking of the mother and not of the child. Yet, Bernard also decries those who support the feast for trying to "add to the glories of Mary", which proves he was indeed talking about Mary.[13]
Saint Thomas Aquinas rejected the Immaculate Conception, saying if the Virgin Mary had been sanctified before her conception, she would not have needed the redemption of Christ concluding that "Blessed Virgin was sanctified after animation".[14] Aquinas distinguished between first time of conception, animation and birth: with the word "conception" is meant the first time of life of the human body, caused by the parents' union (except for the Virgin birth of Jesus), whereas the term "animation" indicates the following time where a soul is believed to be created by God, and then by Him unified together with the human body. The person exists only when the body has received its own soul. Latin Summa theologica affirms:
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If the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of the original sin, this would be derogatory to the dignity of Christ, by reason of His being the universal Saviour of all. Consequently, after Christ, who, as the universal Saviour of all, needed not to be saved, the purity of the Blessed Virgin holds the highest place. For Christ did not contract the original sin in any way whatever, but was holy in His very Conception, according to Luke 1:35: "The Holy which be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God". But the Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin, but was cleansed therefrom before her birth from the womb.[16] |
Saint Bonaventure (d. 1274), second only to Saint Thomas in his influence on the Christian schools of his age, hesitated to accept it for a similar reason.[13] He believed that Mary was completely free from sin, but that she was not given this grace at the instant of her conception.[17]
The celebrated John Duns Scotus (d. 1308), a Friar Minor like Saint Bonaventure, argued, on the contrary, that from a rational point of view it was certainly as little derogatory to the merits of Christ to assert that Mary was by him preserved from all taint of sin, as to say that she first contracted it and then was delivered.[13] Proposing a solution to the theological problem of reconciling the doctrine with that of universal redemption in Christ, he argued that Mary's immaculate conception did not remove her from redemption by Christ; rather it was the result of a more perfect redemption granted her because of her special role in salvation history.[18]
The arguments of Scotus, combined with a better acquaintance with the language of the early Fathers, gradually prevailed in the schools of the Western Church. In 1387 the university of Paris strongly condemned the opposite view.[13]
Scotus's arguments remained controversial, however, particularly among the Dominicans, who were willing enough to celebrate Mary's sanctificatio (being made free from sin) but, following the Dominican Thomas Aquinas' arguments, continued to insist that her sanctification could not have occurred until after her conception.[19]
Popular opinion remained firmly behind the celebration of Mary's conception. In 1439, the Council of Basel, which is not reckoned an ecumenical council, stated that belief in the immaculate conception of Mary is in accord with the Catholic faith. By the end of the 15th century the belief was widely professed and taught in many theological faculties, but such was the influence of the Dominicans, and the weight of the arguments of Thomas Aquinas (who had been canonised in 1323 and declared "Doctor Angelicus" of the Church in 1567) that the Council of Trent (1545–1563)—which might have been expected to affirm the doctrine—instead declined to take a position.[19][20]
The papal bull defining the dogma, Ineffabilis Deus (1854), mentioned in particular the patrististic interpretation of Genesis 3:15 as referring to a woman, Mary, who would be eternally at enmity with the evil serpent and completely triumphing over him. It said the Fathers saw foreshadowings of Mary's "wondrous abundance of divine gifts and original innocence" "in that ark of Noah, which was built by divine command and escaped entirely safe and sound from the common shipwreck of the whole world; in the ladder which Jacob saw reaching from the earth to heaven, by whose rungs the angels of God ascended and descended, and on whose top the Lord himself leaned;[21] in that bush which Moses saw in the holy place burning on all sides, which was not consumed or injured in any way but grew green and blossomed beautifully;[22] in that impregnable tower before the enemy, from which hung a thousand bucklers and all the armor of the strong;[23] in that garden enclosed on all sides, which cannot be violated or corrupted by any deceitful plots;[24] in that resplendent city of God, which has its foundations on the holy mountains;[25] in that most august temple of God, which, radiant with divine splendours, is full of the glory of God;[26] and in very many other biblical types of this kind."
The bull recounts that the Fathers interpreted the angel's address to Mary, "highly favoured one" or "full of grace",[27] as indicating that "she was never subject to the curse and was, together with her Son, the only partaker of perpetual benediction"; they "frequently compare her to Eve while yet a virgin, while yet innocence, while yet incorrupt, while not yet deceived by the deadly snares of the most treacherous serpent".
Certain Marian apparitions have referred to the Immaculate Conception or the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The Miraculous Medal of 1830 refers to Mary as being "conceived without sin."[28] Our Lady of Lourdes in 1858 called herself the Immaculate Conception.[29] Our Lady of Fatima in 1917 requested devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.[30]
The theological underpinnings of Immaculate Conception had been the subject of debate during the Middle Ages with opposition provided by figures such as Saint Thomas Aquinas, a Dominican. However, supportive arguments by Franciscans William of Ware and Duns Scotus, and general belief among Catholics made the doctrine more acceptable, so that the Council of Basel supported it in the 15th century, but the Council of Trent sidestepped the question. Pope Sixtus IV, a Franciscan, had tried to pacify the situation by forbidding either side to criticize the other, and placed the feast of the Immaculate Conception on the Roman Calendar in 1477, but Pope Pius V, a Dominican, changed it to the feast of the Conception of Mary. Clement XI made the feast universal in 1708, but still did not call it the feast of the Immaculate Conception.[31] Popular and theological support for the concept continued to grow and by the 18th century it was widely depicted in art.[32][33][34][35]
By 750, the feast of her conception (December 8) was widely celebrated in the Byzantine East, under the name of the Conception (active) of Saint Anne. In the West it was known as the feast of the Conception (passive) of Mary, and was associated particularly with the Normans, whether these introduced it directly from the East[36] or took it from English usage.[37] The spread of the feast, by now with the adjective "Immaculate" attached to its title, met opposition on the part of some, on the grounds that sanctification was possible only after conception.[19] Critics included Saints Bernard of Clairvaux, Albertus Magnus and Thomas Aquinas. Other theologians defended the expression "Immaculate Conception", pointing out that sanctification could be conferred at the first moment of conception in view of the foreseen merits of Christ, a view held especially by Franciscans.[38]
William of Ware and Blessed John Duns Scotus pointed out that Mary’s Immaculate Conception enhances Jesus’ redemptive work.[39] One of the chief proponents of the doctrine was the Hungarian Franciscan Pelbartus Ladislaus of Temesvár.
On February 28, 1476, Pope Sixtus IV, authorized those dioceses that wished to introduce the feast to do so, and introduced it to his own diocese of Rome in 1477,[37] with a specially composed Mass and Office of the feast.[41] With his bull Cum praeexcelsa of February 28, 1477, in which he referred to the feast as that of the Conception of Mary, without using the word "Immaculate", he granted indulgences to those who would participate in the specially composed Mass or Office on the feast itself or during its octave, and he used the word "immaculate" of Mary, but applied instead the adjective "miraculous" to her conception.[42][43] On September 4, 1483, referring to the feast as that of "the Conception of Immaculate Mary ever Virgin", he condemned both those who called it mortally sinful and heretical to hold that the "glorious and immaculate mother of God was conceived without the stain of original sin" and those who called it mortally sinful and heretical to hold that "the glorious Virgin Mary was conceived with original sin", since, he said, "up to this time there has been no decision made by the Roman Church and the Apostolic See."[42] This decree was reaffirmed by the Council of Trent.[42]
Pope Pius V, while including the feast in the Tridentine Calendar, removed the adjective "Immaculate" and suppressed the existing special Mass for the feast, directing that the Mass for the Nativity of Mary (with the word "Nativity" replaced by "Conception") be used instead.[44][45] Part of that earlier Mass was revived in the Mass that Pope Pius IX ordered to be used on the feast and that is still in use.[46]
On December 6, 1708, Pope Clement XI made the feast of the Conception of Mary, at that time still with the Nativity of Mary formula for the Mass, a Holy Day of Obligation.[19] Until Pope Pius X reduced in 1911 the number of Holy Days of Obligation to 8, there were in the course of the year 36 such days, apart from Sundays.[47] Writers such as Sarah Jane Boss interpret the existence of the feast as a strong indication of the Church's traditional belief in the Immaculate Conception.[48]
A feast of the Conception of the Most Holy and All Pure Mother of God was celebrated in Syria on December 8 perhaps as early as the 5th century. The title of achrantos (spotless, immaculate, all-pure) refers to the holiness of Mary, not specifically to the holiness of her conception.[49]
Mary's complete sinlessness and concomitant exemption from any taint from the first moment of her existence was a doctrine familiar to Greek theologians of Byzantium. Beginning with St. Gregory Nazianzen, his explanation of the "purification" of Jesus and Mary at the circumcision (Luke 2:22) prompted him to consider the primary meaning of "purification" in Christology (and by extension in Mariology) to refer to a perfectly sinless nature that manifested itself in glory in a moment of grace (e.g., Jesus at his Baptism). St. Gregory Nazianzen designated Mary as prokathartheisa (prepurified). Gregory likely attempted to solve the riddle of the Purification of Jesus and Mary in the Temple through considering the human natures of Jesus and Mary as equally holy and therefore both purified in this manner of grace and glory.[51] Gregory's doctrines surrounding Mary's purification were likely related to the burgeoning commemoration of the Mother of God in and around Constantinople very close to the date of Christmas.[52] Nazianzen's title of Mary at the Annunciation as "prepurified" was subsequently adopted by all theologians interested in his Mariology to justify the Byzantine equivalent of the Immaculate Conception. This is especially apparent in the Fathers St. Sophronios of Jerusalem and St. John Damascene, who will be treated below in this article at the section on Church Fathers. About the time of Damascene, the public celebration of the "Conception of St. Ann" (i.e., of the Theotokos in her womb) was becoming popular. After this period, the "purification" of the perfect natures of Jesus and Mary would not only mean moments of grace and glory at the Incarnation and Baptism and other public Byzantine liturgical feasts, but purification was eventually associated with the feast of Mary's very conception (along with her Presentation in the Temple as a toddler) by Orthodox authors of the 2nd millennium (e.g., St. Nicholas Cabasilas[53] and Joseph Bryennius).[54]
It is admitted that the doctrine as defined by Pius IX was not explicitly noted before the 12th century. It is also agreed that "no direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture".[19] But it is claimed that the doctrine is implicitly contained in the teaching of the Fathers. Their expressions on the subject of the sinlessness of Mary are, it is pointed out, so ample and so absolute that they must be taken to include original sin as well as actual. Thus in the first five centuries such epithets as "in every respect holy", "in all things unstained", "super-innocent", and "singularly holy" are applied to her; she is compared to Eve before the fall, as ancestress of a redeemed people; she is "the earth before it was accursed". The well-known words of St. Augustine (d. 430) may be cited: "As regards the mother of God," he says, "I will not allow any question whatever of sin." It is true that he is here speaking directly of actual or personal sin. But his argument is that all men are sinners; that they are so through original depravity; that this original depravity may be overcome by the grace of God, and he adds that he does not know but that Mary may have had sufficient grace to overcome sin "of every sort" (omni ex parte).[13]
Although the doctrine of Mary's Immaculate Conception appears only later among Latin (and particularly Frankish) theologians,[55] it became ever more manifest among Byzantine theologians reliant on Gregory Nazianzen's Mariology in the Medieval or Byzantine East. Although hymnographers and scholars, like the Emperor Justinian I, were accustomed to call Mary "prepurified" in their poetic and credal statements, the first point of departure for more fully commenting on Nazianzen's meaning occurs in Sophronius of Jerusalem.[56] In other places Sophronius explains that the Theotokos was already immaculate, when she was "purified" at the Annunciation and goes so far as to note that John the Baptist is literally "holier than all 'Men' born of woman" since Mary's surpassing holiness signifies that she was holier than even John after his sanctification in utero.[57] Sophronius' teaching is augmented and incorporated by St. John Damascene (d. 749/750). John, besides many passages wherein he extolls the Theotokos for her purification at the Annunciation, grants her the unique honor of "purifying the waters of baptism by touching them". This honor was most famously and firstly attributed to Christ, especially in the legacy of Nazianzen. As such, Nazianzen's assertion of parallel holiness between the prepurified Mary and purified Jesus of the New Testament is made even more explicit in Damascene in his discourse on Mary's holiness to also imitate Christ's baptism at the Jordan.[58] The Damascene's hymnongraphy and De fide Orthodoxa explicitly use Mary's "pre-purification" as a key to understanding her absolute holiness and unsullied human nature. In fact, Damascene (along with Nazianzen) serves as the source for nearly all subsequent promotion of Mary's complete holiness from her Conception by the "all pure seed" of Joachim and the womb "wider than heaven" of St. Ann.[59]Rafaelosornio (talk) 02:14, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Rafaelosornio, I'm giving you my answer in a new thread because the quotation in your thread is so long that I'm afraid it will get lost.
The answer comes in several parts. First, the essence of the information hasn't been lost, simply reformulated using reliable sources. For example, the very first item on your list concerns the possibility that Mary committed personal sin, as distinct from inheriting original sin. The text I deleted takes three and a half lines to say that she did not, while the text I wrote takes just half a line: "Mary's freedom from personal sin was affirmed in the 4th century..." There are two advantages with the shorter mention: first, our readers are entry-level, not experts (no expert would ever consult Wikipedia for information, or at least I hope not), and so we have to get the main point across as quickly as possible - in this case, Mary was free of personal sin. Second, the mention of Pope Pius XII and the Council of Trent don't tell the real story, which is that her freedom from personal sin was proclaimed many centuries before either.
On Mary's pre-redemption,' the same idea is conveyed already in the section headed Doctrine, "Mary, through God's grace, was conceived free from the stain of original sin in view of her role as the Mother of God." And it takes a lot fewer words, and is a lot more comprehensible to the non-expert (not Catholic) reader - and we must always be conscious that we are not writing only for Catholics.
I believe that all the points are likewise still in the article, but expressed in fewer words and in a way that Non-Catholics will understand. If you have specific questions, it might be best if you could list them as bullet-points - that would be easier for me to answer.Achar Sva (talk) 02:46, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
What is trying to say the source? Even the source says "Paul does not understand death to be the natural end of human life". But a user is writing the contrary in the article.
Boring, Eugene (2012). An Introduction to the New Testament: History, Literature, Theology. Westminster John Knox. ISBN 9788178354569. Page 300-302:
5:12–21 Christ and Adam For Paul, both sin and salvation are corporate realities. Human beings are not lone individuals who may or may not strike up relations with others; to be human means our lives are already bound up in the network of humanity before we ever make individual decisions. Paul represents this as our corporate life in Adam. The story of the “fall” in Genesis 3—Adam’s rebellion against God and expulsion from paradise—plays no role in Old Testament theology, but in Paul’s context in first-century Judaism, Adam’s sin was sometimes seen as bringing sin and death into the world (e.g., 2 Esdras, 2 Baruch, Apocalypse of Moses, rabbinic texts). Paul is not constructing an original argument that sin and death were released into the world through Adam, but presupposes that this understanding of sin is known to his readers in the Roman church.
Paul does not think of “original sin” in the sense of a biologically transmitted disease or as later generations being held accountable for the deed of a remote ancestor. Adam’s act released a power into the world to which all human beings are subject; to be human is to be subject to sin and death. Paul does not understand death to be the natural end of human life. Rather, like sin, death is a transcendent power that overcomes and enslaves human life. Modern (and postmodern) readers can think of something like “systemic evil,” an overwhelming network of sin and death in which we are already involved before we ever make conscious decisions and from which we cannot extricate ourselves. The meaning is not that God punishes all later generations for what Adam did, but that Adam’s story is the representative story of everyone.
So also with Christ’s story. Adam was a “type,” a prototype and paradigm, of the one to come (Christ) in that the act of each, both Adam and Christ, was representative of humanity as a whole. (The Hebrew word adam means “humanity,” “humankind”; it is not merely the name of an individual, but the representative of the human race.) Over against the picture of universal human disobedience represented by Adam, Paul presents Jesus as the one person in human history who realized in his own existence what it means to be a truly human being. He was truly obedient to God. Here, rare in Paul’s theology, it is not only Jesus’ death but also how he lived his life that is the saving event (see Phil 2:8, where Jesus’ whole life is characterized as “obedience”). Jesus’ obedience was God’s saving act that reversed previous human history and created a new humanity. Jesus is not merely paralleled to Adam; the consequences for humanity resulting from Adam’s disobedience to the will of God are more than counter-balanced by Christ’s obedience to the will of God; note the repeated “not” in verses 15–16. Where sin abounded, grace superabounded, hyperabounded (v. 20). Rafaelosornio (talk) 08:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Adam’s story is the representative story of everyone." Achar Sva (talk) 09:07, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Just to clarify matters for Rafaelosornio: all sources are clear that Genesis did not share Augustine's interpretation of Genesis 3 - for example, here is Ḥayim Navon, summarising the positions of a number of important Jewish theologians; and here is Toews, whom we use in our article, pointing out that Genesis 3 is not properly read as constituting a "fall" in the Christian sense (a sense which is solely Christian - it does not exist in Judaism). I could produce many more, but the point is this: it was Augustine who first defined these texts as "original sin" and a "fall". We cannot, in our article, ignore this when we talk about Mary's freedom from this condition.Achar Sva (talk) 08:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
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