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I feel that this page is being held hostage by user:DemolitionMan and user:Desione, who are insisting on edits that go counter to anything that is considered remotely reasonable in the current historiography of India. First they had insisted on adding the Hindi script; now, finding they can't push that, they're wasting everyone's time with ludicrous claims about the "First War of Independence."
Well, the National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT), the division of the Ministry of Education, Government of India, that sets the curriculum standards for high-school students in India, has finally made available the last quarter of its year-long history sequence used in all high-schools (grade/standard XII) in India. These books have been used by all Indian high-school students since 2005. Here is the chapter on the rebellion: Rebels and the Raj: The Revolt of 1857 and its representations Nowhere does it refer itself to the rebellion as the "First War of Independence" in any discussion. Nowhere! The only place where the expression is used is in the "Images of the Rebellion" chapter ("Nationalistic Imagery" section), and this is what it has to say:
“ | The national movement in the twentieth century drew its inspiration from the events of 1857. A whole world of nationalist imagination was woven around the revolt. It was celebrated as the First War of Independence in which all sections of the people of India came together to fight against imperial rule. (page 313) | ” |
That's it! Don't you think it is shameful, that if the Indian high-school books don't use the expression, "First War of Independence" anywhere except in a discussion how it was used for nationalistic purposes in the first half of the 20th century, we are allowing two editors to edit-war endlessly (all in the name of civility and no personal attacks).
The book uses both "mutiny" and "revolt" to describe the rebellion, for example:
“ | If one were to place the dates of these mutinies in chronological order, it would appear that as the news of the mutiny in one town travelled to the next the sepoys there took up arms. The sequence of events in every cantonment followed a similar pattern. (page 2) | ” |
and here is what it says about the definitions:
“ | Mutiny – a collective disobedience of rules and regulations within the armed forces. Revolt – a rebellion of people against established authority and power. The terms ‘revolt’ and ‘rebellion’ can be used synonymously. In the context of the revolt of 1857 the term revolt refers primarily to the uprising of the civilian population (peasants, zamindars, rajas, jagirdars) while the mutiny was of the sepoys. (page 4) | ” |
This is exactly what I have said a number of times above. I think it is time we stopped cajoling editors who are disruptive. If these two editors, do not stop their disruptive editing, (and they can take that as a threat if they want), I will have an RFC on this page and advertise on the History, South Asia and Britain portals. I am proposing that the disputed sentence should read:
“ | The rebellion is also known as the Indian Mutiny, Great Rebellion, Sepoy Mutiny, Revolt of 1857, and predominantly in India, First War of Independence (with link to the (term) page). | ” |
In light, not only of all the academic literature on the subject that I have listed above, but also of the usage in the book chapter, this the best we can do. All the stuff about popular or official in India is the POV of individual editors, not the consensus of scholarly opinion, even at the high-school level, in India. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Fowler I think you are lying. Not all high-school students use NCERT text-books. Different state boards publish different text-books and most states are affiliated to the local state board not to the NCERT material. As it is, the NCERT material changes depending on who is in power in New Delhi - if it's the BJP the syllabus is saffron, if it is the CPI and its cronies it becomes red. DemolitionMan (talk) 04:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
"A history alumnus of Lucknow University, Vikrant Nath has translated his love for the subject and his concern for preservation of India�s ecology into an entrepreneurial venture committed to sensitising the public � especially students � to their cultural and environmental heritage. Launched in 1999, the Karavan Heritage and Nature Society is a first-of-its-type education enterprise. As Nath explains, "its purpose is to experience India in her jungles, her wilderness, her myriad life forms, monuments, books, poetry, music and dance". To this end the Karavan Society organises affordably priced workshops, excursions, tours and summer camps.
"Each one of our activities is customised," says Nath. Thus for school children there is the Freedom Tour which is a day-long visit to the monuments associated with India�s first war of independence. "Through a hands-on experience of historic monuments and listening to experts explaining their historical context, student involvement in history is stimulated � something rote or textbook learning can never achieve," says Nath." So much for all students being taught the "Indian Mutiny" nonsense. DemolitionMan (talk) 08:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
And this is from the Missouri Southern State University "The next few pages deal with British mercantilism and warfare and conflicts in India between England and France. Under the sub-heading "The Indian Revolt," the first sentence reads, "India in the mid-1800s presented the strange spectacle of a huge land, with millions of people and an ancient civilization, controlled by a foreign commercial corporation." Once again, according to the textbook, India is somehow out of sync with the rest of the world and a "strange spectacle." The Mutiny of 1857, or the First War of Independence, as it is called in Indian and Pakistani history textbooks, and which..." from "Teaching South Asia" Link - [] Apparently, everyone except Fowler&Fowler are Indian POV-pushers. DemolitionMan (talk) 08:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Asia society: "Asia is also portrayed through Western eyes. Only one out of seven widely used textbooks examined points out that the war the British call the Sepoy Mutiny is called the "First War of Indian Independence" by Indians" Link - []
Telegraph: "Just back from Meerut where I've been observing a rally to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the 1857 Rebellion - or First War of Independence as it is known in these parts." []
Madhya Pradesh: "Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Shivraj Singh Chouhan has urged Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to ensure that Class X social science textbook replaces the term '1857 Mutiny' with India's First War of Independence." []
Anthropology of North-East India: Textbook - []
Want more??? DemolitionMan (talk) 09:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Gujarat: What students are taught -
The Gujarat government has asked all affiliated colleges of Gujarat University (GU) in Ahmedabad and Gandhinagar to send 250 to 300 students each for Narendra Modi's youth convention to be held at the Gujarat College campus today, Sahara Samay sources said.
The convention is being organised by the Cultural Affairs department in collaboration with the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation (AMC).
The Yuva Sangam is being held to commemorate 150 years of the First War of Independence and the martyrs of 1857.
A circular issued by GU Vice-Chancellor Parimal Trivedi, dated July 30, asks all colleges to help in making the programme a success.
"Every college should attempt to get at least 250-300 students to the venue by 5 pm. NCC and NSS students should take part in the torch procession in their uniform," says the circular.
However, Fowler continues with his blatant lies.
DemolitionMan (talk) 09:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
So we are back to square one. I don't care which order the wording is in. But don't those who want the wording: "The rebellion which is popularly known as First War of Independence in India is also known as the Indian Mutiny, the Sepoy Mutiny, the Great Rebellion, and the Revolt of 1857." see that it "can be misunderstood because the current wording can imply that the list that follows are only terms used in India (and that else where it is exclusively known as the Indian Rebellion of 1857). --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
DemolitionMan, I am not discussing if it is "popularly known" or "infrequently known " I am discussing the structure of the sentence. Do you not see that the sentence "can be misunderstood because the current wording can imply that the list that follows are only terms used in India (and that else where it is exclusively known as the Indian Rebellion of 1857). For precision of meaning it is much better that either factoid is dropped (then they can be in alphabetical order) or that the factoid and first war of independence is placed last. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Refero - Here is the policy text
The key principles in summary are:
* If a native name has a common English-language equivalent, the English version takes precedence (e.g. Munich rather than München; China rather than Zhōngguó). * If the name is a self-identifying term for the entity involved and there is no common English equivalent, use the name that the entity has adopted to describe itself. * If the name is that of an inanimate or non-human entity, there is no common English equivalent and no dispute over the entity's name, use the official designation (or an English translation thereof) applied by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which the entity is predominately found (e.g. Orlické Mountains from the Czech Orlické hory). * If the name of an inanimate or non-human entity is disputed by two jurisdictions and one or more English-language equivalents exists, use the commonest English-language name. * If the name of an inanimate or non-human entity is disputed by two jurisdictions and there is no English-language equivalent, use the commonest non-English name.
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or self-identifying usage:
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations; focus on reliable sources) Yes it is - in English in India * Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution) Yes it is - lots of proof has been provided so far including stamps issued by the Govt. of India * Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)
Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:
* Does the subject have a moral right to use the name? * Does the subject have a legal right to use the name? * Does the name infringe on someone else's legal or moral rights? * Is the use of the name politically unacceptable?
Where a choice exists between native and common English versions of names (e.g. Deutsch/German), the common English version of the name is usually preferred. The common English version of the name is WoI as has been repeatedly pointed out.
"Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize." - Majority of English speakers know it as WoI. DemolitionMan (talk) 12:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's just go back to "It is also known as the First War of Independence, the Great Mutiny, the Indian Mutiny, The Revolt of 1857, and the Sepoy Mutiny. Clearly there is a lack of consensus about official, popular, etc. and WP:NCON clearly states that, when there is a lack of consensus, alternative names should be included in alphabetical order. --RegentsPark (talk) 14:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Reasons why the name "First War of Independence" should get precedence:
Also, the name is "First War of Independence" and best used as "India's First War of Independence" or just as "First War of Independence" when the context is clear, but not as "First War of Indian Independence". For those of you who are including english speakers in US in their calculation, please note that hardly anyone in US cares about FWoI. In fact if you tell people in US about "First War of Indian Independence", they will get thoroughly confused as to whether it was the Cherokee Indians or Navajo Indians who were waging which war against who. So again, be careful in lumping english speaking populations who have no idea or don't care about this. Desione (talk) 19:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
1. Most common name outside India is Indian Mutiny. Not the first was of Indian independence. 2. Extensive and large numbers of English speakers outside India (perhaps a majority). 3. Since this is part of the history of the British empire (the rulers of most of the revolting area at the time) they should take precedent. 4. As has been said before common does not mean only. There is a common name in English. [[Slatersteven (talk) 00:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)]]
I think having WOI last on the list makes it stand out quite a bit- especially considering its a bright blue link with a bit of text before it. Just the way I look at it here but being last on a list is can be the more prominent position. But meh, the main point here is of course that with the predominantly qualifier it has to go last for the sake of grammar.
The British Raj being dead so its views are irrelevant- This really goes counter to all the common guidelines of history study. --Him and a dog 13:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually there are a number of histories written out side the UK and India. Some have even been quoted in other discussions. It is also part of British history. The British Raj (and the EIC) were directly involved, how many Indians alive today were?[[Slatersteven (talk) 18:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)]]
May I suggest that one name we could call it by may be the "Great Tragedy of 1857" as to be honest, neither side (British or Indian) came out of the conflict with even a shred of honour considering the atrocities and acts of wanton destruction carried out by both sides.
Any attempt to call it by any other noble name be is "Mutiny" or "War of Independence" is downright shameful in my book and may the ghosts of Meerut, Cawnpore, Jhansi and Gwalior haunt you to your graves!
Now cease this petty bickering and nationalistic showmanship. Just agree that the whole affair merely exhibited the lowest animal instincts of man, regardless of colour, religion or nationality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.225.140 (talk) 08:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that the 'Indian Sources' vs. 'Non-Indian Sources' is not meaningful (mea culpa: I'm partially guilty for starting this trend). The facts about Cawnpore are quite straightforward and everyone agrees about the firing at the ghat and the massacre at Bibighar. The only issues are whether the firing was planned or not and the why of the massacre (and neither have viewpoints that are clearly Indian, British, or non-Indian in general). I think my rewrite captures the essence of the 'was it planned or not'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RegentsPark (talk • contribs) 19:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it does read better.[[Slatersteven (talk) 09:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)]]
Not wishing to attack the creator of the new time line in the article but it does need work. I am happy to expand it but I see in the History there are questions over it staying.
May I suggest a new page with the timeline on it rather than its present position?
Two editors have reverted the edit I made adding a dismbig link at the top of the article to a 1909 book by V.D. Savarkar. After the first revert I undid it leaving an edit summary indicating I believed it courteous that I be informed if this was being undone. A second editor undid it with what I thought was a very poor argument (as was the first). Wikipedia editing guidelines tells us to build the web, and the book itself has some significant history to it. Moreover, and very importantly, it shares the name that a large number of Indians use todescribe the event (I am not going into the right and left discussion of wether that's right or wrong) other than WP:DISAMBIG indicates that such a link be added. As such I honestly cannot see what problem there is with having the dismbig link there. I really appreciate it if the courtesy was shown to a. inform me if this edit is undone, and b. a strong argument was made not to include this link. Otherwise I'll be forced to assume that such an edit is the result of misguided good faith or bourne out of proprietary motives. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 00:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
The purpose of what you propose is to link to an article with the same name as this article.
One, this page is headed (after much debate) the 'Indian Rebellion of 1857' not 'The Indian War of Independence', and if you search for 'The Indian War of Independence' you get a disamg page that links you to this article or the book (or now the term).
Two, if we keep the link shouldn't we open the floodgates for Saul David's and Malleson's 'Indian Mutiny', Innes' 'The Sepoy revolt', or the thirty plus books that have titles in a similar vane? Or are you suggesting Savarker's book deserves unique treatment?
Three, the issues around nomenclature are discussed in the article.
Thus there is no need for what you have added, and it just makes thing (more) messy.
rsloch (talk) 15:00, 10 July 2008 (BST)
There is a section dealing with works on the subject, as well as a large list of sources for the article, I fail, to see why this is not sufficiant. Also may I ask who created the article on the book in question? The book under discusion was writen in 1909 was it not, the commemeration was in 2007 (and I presume one in 1957) I again fail, to see the link.[[Slatersteven (talk) 18:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)]]
[[Slatersteven (talk) 18:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)]]
A reference section is for listing sources used for constructing the article, it is not considered a part of readable prose, and moreover merely providing list (if it useful) in the wrong place does hardly anything to improve the article
Section 9 needs work, but it is a section that deasl with the 2007 commemerations and thus could be expanded. To cover all and every statue book or culteral referance could overburden the page (and trying to define significant has troubles all of its own). There was at one time a popular culter section which for whatever rason (but perhaps not un-linked to the comments above) was removed.
Having said this as the book underdiscusion is a history (so note worthy it's not even listed let alone used as a source). It's place therefore is in section 10 or 11. It is not a commemoration (except in the way that all histries commemorate an event, a very large part of the article would thus be needed (and could make it unwieldy) to cover all histories and other litteray sources. [[Slatersteven (talk) 19:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)]]
Lastly slater, my interactions with you in the last few hours suggested to me that you're still getting to ropes with how wikipedia works. May I suggest you assume good faith, and resist from making comments or edits which maybe seen confrontational (you're edit above commenting on "noteworthiness" of savarkar's book using an absurd argument is an example). Every one who works here devotes free time out of interest and without renumeration, attempting to belittle others work on lopsided arguments do little to convince others of you editorial or sholastic credibillity. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 20:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
But section 9 does describe a celebration, so the section does exist it just needs expansion. So it is not true that the matter is not present just that it needs work. To say something does not exist requires there to be no extent example. It does not describe the book in question (why is it being discussed in a section about the Indian rebellion book by V.D. Savarkar? Would it not perhaps be better to start another thread?), but then why should it the book is not commemeration (or at last was not produced specifcaly as one but as an attempt to re-dress an inbalance it the representation of the mutiny).
How do we define notable? If you start to introduce value judgments you will open up not only the problem of edit wars, but also overload the page with vast discussions on whether a given thing is notable (there is also the issue of when a thing was notable). Moreover if you decide to only list a few examples on what criteria do you base the inclusion? On fame, on number of visitors (or sales), on importance (to whom and why). Again you are then making POV judgments. Perhaps this was why the section was removed in the first place, it was just too contentious.
Are you aware of how many books have been written about the Mutiny? How do we even begin to determine the notability of a book (I stand by my comment about it’s notability, it is no more noteworthy then the other works listed within section 10 or 11 with regard to the subject of this article), and its current exclusion from this article as a source does raise questions as to how many people have actually read it, which then means its place in not in this article (other then it’s inclusion in section 11) but in one on the growth and development of the India independence movement (which seems to be one of the reasons you believe it should be accorded a special place), to be included it must b noteworthy in regard to the article it is being included in at least if it is to be given some kind of ‘notable’ status above and beyond the hundreds of other works on the subject). [[Slatersteven (talk) 16:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)}}But section 9 does describe a celebration, so the section does exist it just needs expansion. So it is not true that the matter is not present just that it needs work. To say something does not exist requires there to be no extent example. It does not describe the book in question (why is it being discussed in a section about the Indian rebellion book by V.D. Savarkar? Would it not perhaps be better to start another thread?), but then why should it the book is not commemeration (or at last was not produced specifcaly as one but as an attempt to re-dress an inbalance it the representation of the mutiny).
How do we define notable? If you start to introduce value judgments you will open up not only the problem of edit wars, but also overload the page with vast discussions on whether a given thing is notable (there is also the issue of when a thing was notable). Moreover if you decide to only list a few examples on what criteria do you base the inclusion? On fame, on number of visitors (or sales), on importance (to whom and why). Again you are then making POV judgments. Perhaps this was why the section was removed in the first place, it was just too contentious.
Are you aware of how many books have been written about the Mutiny? How do we even begin to determine the notability of a book (I stand by my comment about it’s notability, it is no more noteworthy then the other works listed within section 10 or 11 with regard to the subject of this article), and its current exclusion from this article as a source does raise questions as to how many people have actually read it, which then means its place in not in this article (other then it’s inclusion in section 11) but in one on the growth and development of the India independence movement (which seems to be one of the reasons you believe it should be accorded a special place), to be included it must b noteworthy in regard to the article it is being included in at least if it is to be given some kind of ‘notable’ status above and beyond the hundreds of other works on the subject).
But section 9 does describe a celebration, so the section does exist it just needs expansion. So it is not true that the matter is not present just that it needs work. To say something does not exist requires there to be no extent example. It does not describe the book in question (why is it being discussed in a section about the Indian rebellion book by V.D. Savarkar? Would it not perhaps be better to start another thread?), but then why should it the book is not commemeration (or at last was not produced specifcaly as one but as an attempt to re-dress an inbalance it the representation of the mutiny).
How do we define notable? If you start to introduce value judgments you will open up not only the problem of edit wars, but also overload the page with vast discussions on whether a given thing is notable (there is also the issue of when a thing was notable). Moreover if you decide to only list a few examples on what criteria do you base the inclusion? On fame, on number of visitors (or sales), on importance (to whom and why). Again you are then making POV judgments. Perhaps this was why the section was removed in the first place, it was just too contentious.
Are you aware of how many books have been written about the Mutiny? How do we even begin to determine the notability of a book (I stand by my comment about it’s notability, it is no more noteworthy then the other works listed within section 10 or 11 with regard to the subject of this article), and its current exclusion from this article as a source does raise questions as to how many people have actually read it, which then means its place in not in this article (other then it’s inclusion in section 11) but in one on the growth and development of the India independence movement (which seems to be one of the reasons you believe it should be accorded a special place), to be included it must b noteworthy in regard to the article it is being included in at least if it is to be given some kind of ‘notable’ status above and beyond the hundreds of other works on the subject). [[Slatersteven (talk) 16:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)]]
My point (about the book) is that it is no more noteworthy then many other histories about the conflict, with regards to the subject of this article (the Indian Mutiny). it's influence on the development of the Indian Independence movement is irrelevant in this regard, which in not the subject of this page (by the way common sense would be OR, I am not sure what you mean by General knowledge). As to the issue of whether or not a given thing is notable in a cultural sense, how is fame obvious, does it have to be famous in one country or in all of them, or a majority (or in only those involved)? Does it have to have been famous once but not today or famous today but not heard of at the time (or both)? Now it is true that national commemorations are notable (which is already covered), but what about museum exhibits, and if we include those how big should the museum (or the exhibit) be? Moreover how relevant should it be (specific commemoration such as the Cawnpore well memorial, or more general such as Havelock’s statue, which commemorates the man not the war, paid for by his men not the state). How about comics, are we talking about popular culture? If so how relevant does the reference have to be? Do we include indirect references (those that are inspired by but not actually set in the Mutiny)? Yes I do still stand by my point; the book is no more notable then many others movement (it was not the first Indian History, it was not the first mention of the conflict as a war for freedom, it was not the first history written in a native language) except for its influence on the Indian Independence movement, which this article is not about. This article is about the Indian mutiny; therefore any culture section should be about the influence of the conflict on culture, not about how works about the conflict have influenced culture (the proper place for that is the article about the work). May I ask what is your point? [[Slatersteven (talk) 19:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)]]
I must admit to being confused by the article, I cannot find a mention of the book we are discusing, what page was it on? It seems to be about statues and other solid commemorations (well actualy about the creation of a memorial landscape), but I could be wrong. Now to perhpas avoid cinfusion I shall start a new section.[[Slatersteven (talk) 18:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)]]
It has been suggested that we have a section about the cultural impact of the Mutiny. This raises a couple of points. A. This section did at one time exists (well one on popular cultural references any way), this was removed, the question in this case would be why was it removed and should it be re-instated? B. Should a section on the impact of the mutiny on society as a whole, including physical memorials. This would (it has been suggested) be a list of the most important or famous. And should this separate (or instead of) the section mentioned above or part of a general cultural impact section? There is also the point that seems to have been made that this section should include works that are about the conflict, and that have had an impact on the development of national identity. I am unsure about cultural impact sections when it come to popular culture, a separate ‘see also’ page might burden the article less, both in terms of likely debate about what should be include and also increasing the length of an already very large article with material that adds very little to understanding the conflict itself. I totally disagree with the idea that we should include material about ‘abouts’ no matter how important in subsequent (and therefore not relevant) events. [[Slatersteven (talk) 18:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)]
I notice that there is a rather large section that has been commented out in the section "Causes of the rebellion" after the para starting Sir Sayyid's critique ... and continues for 8 paragraphs with a subheading "The Bengal Army"
Should this be reinstated - or simply deleted? 155.198.213.124 (talk) 18:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Please stop reverting my fixes to this part of the introduction to the article. The way it was written before it said that the way India was governed went unchanged between the end of the mutiny and 47 which is just untrue. Reforms were made including rather major ones later on that introduced a Indian parliament. This is not the article to discuss such things however to say as fact something that goes counter to their having happened is not good.--Him and a dog 19:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Of course reforms happened but there was never a parliament. I have corrected some spellings and let it remain though. TheBlueKnight (talk) 19:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I just used the wrong word, parliament=assembly. I'm not claiming they were a dominion- not that that actually meant much, Canada was self governing long before that happened.--Him and a dog 16:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
There has always been attempts to justify the inhumanity of the British troops in India during the events of 1857 before it and subsequently. The justification is it was a retaliation.
The British had no reason to be in India, at least no reason to be rulers.
So the original provocation was the British presence in India. (Yogesh Khandke (talk) 05:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC))
[[User:Rsloch (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)]]
Of course the British had reason to be in India, there was a lot of money to be made in trade there.
As to that being the original 'provocation'...nah. Even assuming all Indians were utterly opposed to the EIC that goes back way too far. Where will it end? The original provocation was the apes coming down from the trees?--Him and a dog 16:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The British had a right to be traders. The fact that they became rulers was and is resented by Indians. You can find a parallel in the American occupation of Iraq or German occupation of Scandinavia, Chinese occupation of Tibet etc. Yes, there was money to be made - but there was money to be made everywhere - Thailand, Japan etc. and the British did not become rulers there. Today Apple makes money around the world selling the Ipod - I don't see it occupying a country or raising an army. If it did - it would be able to make a lot more money if it could indulge in wanton exploitation - that was the case with the EIC - and Indians merely retaliated. I recommend you read "The Last Lion" a biography about Churchill and look at described conditions even 40 years after the Rebellion and that was 40 years before Independence - there was great exploitation even then. TheBlueKnight (talk) 04:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
The Moghuls gave the British rights to be rulers by treaty. Moreover I do not belive (personaly) that killing women and children is ever justified, no matter what the provocation. It could also be pointed out that many Indians (at the time) were not opposed to EIC rule, many actualy supported the continuation of EIC rule with thioer lives.[[Slatersteven (talk) 15:27, 1 November 2008 (UTC)]]
"I had never heard anyone praising the empire. I told myself, don't get into it, it doesn't matter. Then the next one started and said that 'even the fact that your book was written in English is a tribute to the British Empire'. I lost it. I said: 'That is like telling the child of a raped parent that he is a tribute to his father's brutality.' I said: 'My tragedy is that I love English, not hate it, but I will use it in any way I can against you.'"
Also, there has been a massive generational change in India and history books, movies, other outlets of information don't portray a pretty picture of the British Empire and perhaps my views have been affected by it. I am an author of fiction and my current book is set in colonial India which has led me to read a lot of material about those times from a variety of sources and the more I read, the worse I feel about some of the stuff. To quote a memorable line "The only difference between the Bombay Club and the Bengal Club was that the former did not allow Indians and dogs while the later allowed dogs." As an Indian how am I exactly supposed to feel when I read that? TheBlueKnight (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
This is not a discussion forum and I got carried away - my apologies. TheBlueKnight (talk) 22:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
If I take this logic forward. I think the following events in the history have the same "shades of gray" 1: It wasn't that bad that Blacks were enslaved and moved out of Africa by Whites. If you compare the per capita income of Blacks in US with that of Africa, I am sure Blacks in US are far richer. They also have access to better resources and got to learn English. The slavery wasn't that bad. 2: If Hitler had not started the genocide, Jewish would have never migrated to US and other countries and the immense wealth and influence and exposure to the world would never have been possible. Also genocide led to ultimate creation of Israel. Genocide wasn't that bad, if you consider all that Jews got out of it. 3: I can go on and on. I can talk about female rights in US and the caste system in India.
No one with a clear mind would agree with these two statements and the reasoning is pretty obvious. A man's institutionalized control of another based on race or gender is absolutely morally reprehensible in the modern world, no matter what. Arundhati objected because for those two English historians British Raj, seemed to be an exception.
However, this reaction by British is quite understandable. The symbol of Queen is still alive. The "glorious" past has huge significance for British identity and they are going to cling on to it as long as they can. Historians will continue to defend the act with whatever they got and the people will get defensive when talked about the morality of the act. If you went back 60 years and asked a White farmer in South of US about slavery, you would have gotten similar reaction. It takes force of a national power to push for these kind of sweeping changes. British sense of history and national pride has a LOT to lose with this admission. I am guessing another 20 years. when some of the old generation will die out and new "facts" are found. For British, the history will be distant and Indians will be too demanding. There will be occasional "deniers" but it will be accepted. Without a Wiki war :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyberowl28 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we actualy know which historians said this and on which radio show? Although it could be said that this authors experoance has no bearing on the idea that the British provoke the mutiny by being foreign rulers (like the Mohgals). [[Slatersteven (talk) 00:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)]]
Didn't we see similar posts by Desione (talk · contribs)? Compare Cyberowl28 (talk · contribs), and the "apologist" articles in both histories. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I would just like to say that desione comparison to slavery and the holocaust are not apt. The british did not enslave the indian nor did they attempt genocide against them in fact the british were the one who emancipated india slave one of the many altrustic acts of the british which historian choose to ignore. They did organize the country economic policy with a priority to british interest but they did not simply loot the country of its wealth through imperial tax and they protected it by choosing not to allow colonist into the country to protect it from the affects colonialism had in other part of the world. They governed the country by the rule of law includeing trial by jury in most case and introduced freedom of the press even for anti-british newspapers. Finally unlike both the nazi and slaveholding south who where defeated in a fight that end with total defeat. The british gave up indian through a process of democrate impowerment and political action something that british ruler like thomas maculay who introduced shakespear and english learning said would be the inevertiable result of european value being taught to the indian but did it anyway. Now I know this is only some of the best of what the british did that sometime they suspened trial by jury or censored the press but they still there action where never comparable to the comparison you made and for that reason you can measure the good they did verse the bad because the good they did was not incidental but delibrate. Sorry for using this page as a discussion page again but I could not stand to let youre statement stand. One last thing before british rule in india it clearly was at best little better and often far worse then it was under them and far worse then it is today. Feudalism war religous persuction the oppressive caste system, but do you take youre history and say everything before 1947 bad only present good or do you recongnize you can't judge the past by standards that barely existed and instead make allowance that they were people of there times.
I had hard time comprehending your argument. My argument is this: A) The act of institutionalized discrimination based on race or gender is morally reprehensible in the modern world. B) Raj discriminated against Indians based on the tenet of European supremacy. It was manifested in the structure of government, army and civil laws. C) Thus Raj is morally reprehensible in the modern world.
Let me know where you disagree. If you can not, we should end discussion on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.191.2.16 (talk) 06:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Please close this discussion, This discussion in no way is improving the quality of the article. There are plus and minus points on both sides. Thats true of all history. Please do not get aggrieved over something which has already been undone when India got independence. There is no need for anyone to justify the actions of their side also. AshLin (talk) 08:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Hmm.. there is nothing in your comment about my argument - clauses A,B or C. I do not know what you are talking about. But I agree - close. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.191.2.16 (talk) 03:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to revert rsloch's restatement of the Mishra book (and appreciate his attempt to find a reasonable way of framing the Mishra version) but I do think that the text still gives undue weight to Mishra's version of the reprisals. For one thing, the word 'debate' implies that Mishra's views are accepted by at least a reasonable sized minority of the historians out there, and I don't think that that is the case. It would be far better to quote other historians about the validity of Mishra's view than it is to quote his view and leave it at that. If there are no historians who give credence to the Mishra view then, IMHO, it should not be in the article. --Regents Park (bail out your boat) 02:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
“ | "C: But these records have been around all this time. Why other historians did not bother to look at them as thoroughly as you have?
Misra: I am really surprised because no other Indian researcher has bothered to look at the gazetteers. The British published new gazetteers every fifteen or twenty years. I went to the oldest gazetteers, those published in 1858 and 1859. I think (most) historians are too structured. My background as a journalist helped. My training is to question structures, not to work in a structured way. This really helped in being eclectic in approach, reaching out to sources, and working on intuition. C: British declassify material after a few decades. So 1857 material was declassified a long time ago. Then what’s new? Misra: Yes, that material has been declassified for a long time. What recently got declassified was the material concerning British opinion about 1857, after 1947. It was under the MI6 files and others: how they perceived the memory of 1857 and how they perceived 1857 as still politically explosive, even in the 20th century. |
” |
These are gazetteers many of which you can find (Full View) on the Google Book Search! Yeah, right, "under MI6 files." What is the gentleman talking about?! I am afraid he is no historian. We are under no mandate to suffer all attempts at "scholarship" gladly. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Since there seems to be a general agreement that Mishra's views are not even remotely mainstream, I'm going to delete the entire paragraph (the rest of the text is primarily there to frame the Mishra view). --Regents Park (bail out your boat) 15:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned that nobody here has actually read Mishra's book and we are relying on blurbs and reviews. I'm going to remove the section on him (looking forward to being undone) until someone reads the book, then summarises his argument, with references, and preferably quotes.
rsloch (talk) 16:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
But forgetting that I don't think we can ascertain the value of a controversial book that none of us has seen let alone read.
rsloch (it's a ship) —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC).
In India the Rani of Jhansi is viewed as a modern-day Joan of Arc - carrying her baby into the battlefield. As is its wont, I guess there might be a bit of an exaggeration. I guess it helps build nationalism in school kids. But how do British historians view her - especially at the time of rebellion and during the Raj? And now as well - has the interpretation changed? TheBlueKnight (talk) 06:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I wonder why there is no reference to Maza Pravas, by Vishnubhatji Godse a contemporary narrative in Marathi,which contains an account of the events of 1857, in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yogesh Khandke (talk • contribs) 20:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Well the article should carry information referenced from the book which is one of the rare contemporary Indian accounts of the events of 1857. --Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Is the attidude of the Britsh to the issue of rape before andd long after the mutiny relevant to understanding Britians reaction to it, also what relevance do novles writen in this century have? There is no evidance that the attitude of the British regarding rape by natives affected the outbreak, nor their reaction to it (after all theere is no claim made that su8ch acts did not occour just that they wre exagerated), as such there is no reason to bleive that the British would have reacted any differantly without the pre-eixitance of the native pare scare.[[Slatersteven (talk) 18:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)]]
In answer to your query, here is my response
Attitudes can play a very important role in justifying war; it gives some form of moral backbone to the argument of war. Whether this attitude is right or wrong is irrelevant - the fact is that attitudes help mobilize war. Bush and co. stating that Saddam had WMDs and was planning to target the US or the communist witch hunt during the tenure of Senator McCarthy are cases in point. It is not for Wikipedia or indeed any encyclopedia to decide what is right and what is wrong but our endeavor should be to present facts and not judge them. I do not think it states that the British would have reacted differently - that is for the individual user to decide. Would the other regular contributors please respond. To the other editors, I recently met William Dalrymple at a lit festival in India - was very illuminating. TheBlueKnight (talk) 04:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
1. If there is an exaggeration of claims of rape, then that of course must be put. 2. No attempt to say there was no rape and hence the outrage? I really didn't understand that one.
Also, I don't think this passage is extremely important in the context of this article - it is more of a sideshow and provides some information. Let's get the input of Fowler and Regent - if in one week they've not responded to this debate then I guess you can take it out. I request you to let the status quo remain till then. TheBlueKnight (talk) 21:24, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
TheBlueKnight (talk) 21:24, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
2.The section that was both left in and removed never claimed there were no rapes, just that the claims were exagerated. As such there would have still been outrage in the Briths press even without the exageration. As even the (true) rape or death of one child is enough to stir up a tidel wave of anger. [[Slatersteven (talk) 21:34, 3 January 2009 (UTC)]]
I think we're getting in a bit of a muddle.
Most of the reports of foreign events in the British press of the period were either reprints of articles in foreign papers, or letters sent directly or indirectly to the paper. Thus it would be these sources, not the British papers that did most if not all of any exaggeration.
[[User:Rsloch (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)]]
Are we wrongly using the term 'Devil's Wind' to describe the British retaliation when in fact it refers to the mutiny as a whole? I've skimmed through James, David, Dalrymple, and Judd using Google books and no luck. —Precedingunsigned comment added by Rsloch (talk •contribs) 15:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure that the Dickens quote comes from Household Words. I think it comes from a private letter. I have not been able to find such an essay in Household Words but there is an excerpt similar to the quoted passage found in one of Dickens' letters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.186.50 (talk) 17:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
In my not so humble opinion the introduction is far too large and needs cutting down. May I suggest we remove everything below '...the Uprising of 1857 and the Sepoy Mutiny'. The remaining text is better covered in the main text.
The article is too long and needs cutting down. I'm going to have a go at doing it but in stages so others can comment, or undo if they think I've gone too far. I know people have spent a lot of time writing certain sections so please don't take any changes personally.
Did any Europeans civilians aid the mutineers?[[Slatersteven (talk) 13:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)]]
Yes, mostly converts to Islam. See Dalrymple, The Last Mughal p153 Rsloch (talk) 12:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I think you will find they were Eurasian, NOT European. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.246.215 (talk) 17:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Rsloch (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Rsloch (talk) 08:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually they were Eurasian musicians mostly from the Native Infantry Regiments - see "Our Bones Are Scattered". Those Europeans that converted to Islam were captive women who took no part int he fighting. Sadly, I think this is another case of someone watching too much "Mangal Pandey: The Rising" and taking it as fact. When natives saw white skin they didn't wait to ask if they were converts. Men were put to death usually on the spot, or taken away and executed later.
\;lets have what the source says, converts to Islam.Slatersteven (talk) 18:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Where did the first two sentences of this section come from? Nothing I have ever read justifies introducing this section with comments about the Ulema.Vontrotta (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
all the controversy and contentions are cleared now, the English were outsider for India and Indians and fighting for drive out them(English)will not NOW so called- rebellion or mutiny. the english were doesn't keep passions they hangs anyone earlier than earliest, without any or less mistakes with cruelty. some invader enters your home and will you shut your mouth and put your hand together and sit, is it possible ? it was the bad result of dirty thinking of english that they are made for ruling the world. one side you are writing that Wikipedia has neutral policy other side you are writing "honorable east India co." and "Sepoy mutiny",plz refer the link below http://www.1857.in/timeline.html "Indian rebellion 1857" no one has right to insult or demoralize to Indians. Please change the title "Indian rebellion 1857" as "first Indian independence war-1857" or "Indian Revolution 1857" --Prakash gothwal (talk) 07:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Do you mean that this was never called slavery, the British enslaving the people of India? Stars4change (talk) 23:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have resources to make a casualty count (civilian and military) for both sides? This would be useful information to have in the info box I think. It will help to put into context the extent of the war to readers. Bedbug1122 (talk) 23:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
It has been proposed that the page India's First War of Independence (term) be merged into this page. I'm fairly agnostic on the issue. However, I can provide some background on why the page was set up in the first place. It was in response to some fairly extreme POV editing that resulted in at least one indefinite ban being handed out. The page was created as an attempt to explain the use of the term by Indian politicians and the controversy surrounding the naming of this event in general. Creating the page seemed to go some way towards resolving the contention. The naming topic has been stable for a couple of years now. FWIW, my preference would be to let sleeping dogs lie. Ronnotel (talk) 20:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Who has made the proposal? I agree - let sleeping dogs lie. TheBlueKnight (talk) 21:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
states that there is little evidence that political, social and religious concerns were factors in the rebellion however, later in the article it explicitly states these as reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.1.33.2 (talk) 13:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
A recent edit added princley states to the rebel side. All appear to be cities or towns not princley states. Some (such as Jhajjar) may be landed gentry, but not independant princes. But inb the case of Jhajjar it was part of Haryana province, and this was naeexed by the company in 1848. As such these were not princley rulers but land owners under Britsh rule.Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the Treaty was signed in 1846 not 1850. The final payments were made in 1850 as far as I can tell. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Weavehole (talk) 03:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)weavehole
For as long as this article has been around, it has been written in American English and most editors are used to editing it in that form of grammar. Some new editor has been changing it to British English on a whim. Please discuss it here - personally I don't see a reason to change something no one has complained about. TheBlueKnight (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
re: File:Indian Rebellion of 1857.jpg
While I'm a fan of including these venerable Victorian Era maps in articles, I've only rarely found they are good as a primary map to define the topic. Their value is usually better as an additional reference for those who are very interested in the topic, and as such should be placed later in our coverages; their high inclusion is further diminished as Downloading the main source file is generally the only way one can actually read such... putting the whole process into the realm of "further activities to study this topic".
Hence I conclude this article clearly needs a modern color-coded purpose generated map delineating the regions 'faithful' to the colonial authorities, those regions that rebelled (perhaps with dated annotations). As written, the lead section requires one to have an intimate knowledge of the Indian sub-continents regions and political regions and their history in advance... which puts quite a damper on learning the later from our article. Oopsie! There were a number of Map Makers active on the Commons last fall. I suggest someone maintaining this page collaborate with such a party and generate a useful map ASAP. There is almost certainly an extant SVG 'locator map' blank that shows modern political boundaries that can be quickly adapted given a list of such regions. Color filling stuff is pretty trivial if one has the skills to operate a Map software graphics package, and such will benefit all the wikipedias world wide. Best regards // FrankB 21:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
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