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Having read through the following page I find that there is a bullying attitude towards an individual who is going by the name of WIN. Now, WIN does not seem to write in English very well, but he does back up his arguments and they do come accross quite intellegently to me. There are plenty of people around the world who's first language is not English, and this does not make them any less intellegent. I would think that using that against someone is a sign of both lack of intellegence and just plain lack of nobility. But don't take it personally old chaps, use this as sound advise and get on with your lives.
...And this seems to bother you considerably. He does seem a tad bit on the defence and yet through all of that and his lack of English language skills I can acertain some very well made points and observations. Perhaps, he does not contribute to the article because of his language capabilities and feels that he must communicate what he feels in the TALK page. Afterall, that is what this page is for. And when we read his points we can look some of it up and come up with our own conclusions and if we find them conclusive, contribute them ourselves in our own vernacular. Cheers old chap and don't lose any more sleep on this.
In his recent writings on Indo-Aryan migration talk page Paul questioned about Indians as one unified race. Now, any person knowing about this theory and race knows that Indians are racially one and i.e.Cacausian.So, I have just opposed this race writings. And, supporters have accused me as Hindu Nationalist Chauvanist and many other bad words which is not wrong as per them. Why such a bias ?
Recently, they are continuously deleting my well ref. logics.( Refer History page of talk page ) They are accusing my citation as non-academic but they will not mention a single word for Michael Witzel controversy who has translated wrong - which when found he simply refused as as printing error. But this printing error occurs for 3 times in his 3 different books for the same verse !!! Then also Witzel will be called very acedemic person by my opposers because he totally supports this theory. But Elst or Kazanas who found this wrong translation in Witzel's translations are told as non-academic by my opposers. I have never said that what ever Ref. is cited or given as a link is not properly read. I have only said that I have not read age old supporting books which finds clear cut invasion by aryans in India. One should read recent developments about this theory. There is no point in reading those books which says the earth is flat and man kind developed on the earth some thousand years back. WIN 06:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
MAN YOU ARE WRITING ABOUT ME AND THEN ALSO CONTINUOUSLY DELETING MY WRITINGS. YOU DON'T BELEIVE IN EQUALITY OF VOICE.
Read http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/en_index.html and article "Is There Evidencs for the Indo-Aryan Immigration to India? by Vishal Agarwal ". Here you will find so many ref. and in depth about Witzel's mis-traslation of BSS verse to find some written proof from vast ancient Sanskrit scriptures.
The article which I have refered above is full of Ref. of those books that you can find in an university library. WIN 11:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Pre-Islamic invasions of India like Saka,Hunas etc. were assimiliated in vast Indian culture. Even Islamic invasions which started in 800 could got hold of Delhi around 1200.Islamic Invasion & rule which were real invasions could not change language of India or even Persia ( Iran ).Situation of greece and India during 1500 BC can not be compared if you know the history. Your above greece example would have fitted before IVC excavation in 1920 , but not now in 2006. Aryan Invasion ( similar to Islamic Invasion ) is not accepted now, and it's migration which is proposed instead. But migration can not do what invasions couldn't. WIN 04:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Isnt it possible that due to the oral transmission of the Vedas in Sanskrit, that what we consider "Vedic Sanskrit" isnt the true form of Sanskrit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.71.16.149 (talk • contribs)
Definitely, I also agree with this. The Vedas are written in poem form and not in prose form. So, similarly for English poem form and prose form writing style will be different. And, by that we are not saying that Peom English language and Prose English language are different. It's simply two forms of writing the same language. Vedas were composed in this poem form so that it will be easily remenbered compared to prose form. So, terming Vedic Sanskrit as different is mis-guiding.
And, I want to ask Dab that if you are right in any sense then why Avestan people are mentioning in Chapter I of Vendidad, that their earliest occupied areas were Hapta Handu ( Sapta Sindhu i.e. Punjab area ) and other two areas of ancient India. Then, what your Proto-Indo-Iranians are doing in ancient India ? MUST BE ON HOLIDAYS !!!
Changing of `S' to `H' ( as in Sapta changing Hapta which means Seven in English AND Sindhu changing to Handu ) is possible but reverse is not possible ( confirmed by linguists ). And, what happened to mightiest and mother river saying Saraswati river of Rig-Ved discussions ? Do not pretend to forget this and mis-guide the world. Also, findings of sub-merged city in Gulf of Cambay on Gujarat coast in Western India dating 7,500 BC waits for world's attention. Read http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php?p=1
Indians themselves have never called themselves as Hindu ( atleast before Persian Muslim Invasions ). Persians have coined the term as Hindu from Sindhu. This Hindu word as religion of majority Indians is also embedded during British times inheritating Muslim word notion.Indians have called as following Vedic or Sanatan Dharma ( Sanatan = Ever prevailing in Sanskrit ) and their land as Aryavarta since ancient times ( i.e Arya + Avart - land / abode of Aryans - which means land of civilized, virtueous, noble people )and they have never termed their Dharma ( which can not be equated with narrow meaning religion word of English ) as Hindu. If some so called Britishraj coined Aryans tribal / nomads had come to ancient India as per AMT then why they call India as their land/abode and not some steppe land where they must be residing in great numbers ( as per aryan theory ). And, how come any Aryan people are not mentioning their homeland or remembering as coming from out of India. They ( Brahmins ) were great in composing & remembering Sanskrit verses in thousands of numbers as verbally remembering tradition and they forgot only small point to remember that Aryans have come from out of India which will be very very big point for any people. I think , I have to forget any LOGIC then only I can understand this like Aryan theory supporters !!!
Even Ramayan & specially Mahabharat knows of people outside Hindukush ranges ( i.e. Central asians & beyond ) and they are termed in that sciptures as Sudra. Why some Steppe originated Aryan write around 1000- 500 BC in Ramayan & Mahabharat ( dates as proposed in AMT ) that their original brothers & sisters are Sudra and not Original Arya. Because there was never ever any so called Aryan Migration in India as per AMT. This Arya & Sudra termation in ancient Indian scriptures reveals human nature and work done in regular life. Otherwise how Rishi Valmiki who was originally some Sudra person and robber & murderer of travellers got Rishi status & became writer of Ramayan and Arya person, if this Sudra and Arya were some rigid caste of ancient Indians. Also refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Ancient_India for more insight details about ancient India. And, how come same Brahman, Kshtriya, Vaishya & Sudra notion got permeated in South Indians ( along with Vedic `Aryan' beliefs ) if this was some Aryan device to protect their identity and ward off from original ancient Indians. I am asking this to Aryan theory supporter because this Brahmin etc. castism is much louded by Aryan theory supporter as some superb Aryan stroke.
If Indra should stand accused of Distroying Cities of Dravid Indus Valley people ( as told by Wheeler ) then why same Dravid Hindu South Indian priests are reciting the Rig-Ved mantra ( famous `Swastinah Indroh .....mantra praising God Indra who is also God of Rain ) during any Hindu Wedding Ceremony. How come Dravid priest / persons can recite about the very same person who is held responsible for destroying their cities of Rig-Vedic verse ( as interpreted & told by Wheeler ) and pushing them down in South India !!!
WIN 04:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Then, why many western authors are also opposing AMT ? Do they are also spreading any religious or nationalist agendas and are they pseudo-academic ? As per you it seems that only AIT/AMT supporter authors are doing any sincere academic work without any agenda. Read from this given link which contains so many articles which exposes your cherished AMT supporters,with in depth proper details and references that you want.http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/en_index.html
The half knowing person or pseudo person can not answer the above points which were not taken into considerations or not known by Western Indologists or deliberately overlooked. That's why you don't have any answer to above points. Max Muller had also simply discarded Astronomical datings in Rig-Vedic verses because that would yield very old dates to Rig-Ved and that would not fit his Aryan Invasion Theory in his favour. Now, same way all AIT/AMT against points are discarded which is not any way scholarly work by any half-knowledge person who are shaken by opponents points. Dear, you are writing about history of a country then you have to consider points of that countrymen in totality.It can not be one sided story which it was, when this theory was proposed. WIN 05:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Dab, for your kind info I have read each & every articles listed in above link.And, also Witzel & others many articles.Just read those articles from above link and then write any counter point here.Why you are not commenting on any points raised above. It seems that you can only resort in accusing opponents as you don't have anything to say about above raised points.For preconceived truth, I can tell for all previous AIT/AMT supporting Indologists of last 150 years as I am very much convinced about false spreading of AIT/AMT. Just read last points in this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aryan_invasion_theory and try to answer my raised points regarding Ancient Iran & Aryan migration there.
Since great ancient Saraswati river mentioned in Rig-Veda is found in India then why it's name is kept alive in these far places in Asia & Europe ?
-Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan
-Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia
-Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea
-Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic . Refer this article by Croatian author http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:46ToqSsCMC0J:www.hindunet.org/saraswati/croats1.PDF+Adriatic+Hrvati&hl=en&gl=in&ct=clnk&cd=22
Since only Indians were having great civilization on banks of Ancient Saraswati river of Rig-Ved time, that's why they carried this Saraswati name to far countries from India when ancient Indians moved out of India for which there are ample notes in Rig-Ved and Puranas. If original aryans came from central asia to Iran & Afghanistan then why they zealously preserved name of some small river of newly found areas of Iran & Afghanistan ? WIN 09:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
You are not able to digest any logical points against this theory.That's why you are using such words.Regarding Cambay findings I have already sited the link as http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php You want to hear only those words which suits your notion which built up from childhood through education books which mis-guide you. These books will never tell you about below written words by Lord McCauley which shows clear motive of degrading India.
I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation. -- Lord McCauley in his speech of Feb 2, 1835, British Parliament
You have to accept that there were vested interests of britishers of that time - in degrading India & Indian culture due to obvious reasons of conquering and converting. " One who stays in Glass house should not throw stones to others " WIN
I've always wondered, how do you Hindu nationalists contrive to believe that the discovery of the British that they were actually related to the Indians was intended as a 'degradation' of India. We all know that the British during the Empire had a rather high opinion of themselves. Which, do you think, would have had more prestige in their eyes: An ancient nation that derived from the same source as they themselves, or a nation of 'savages' with no relation to the British from time immemorial. In the colonial mindset of the British, the "AIT" actually ennobled Indian culture rather than degrading them, so all your droning about it all being a British ruse to portray India as barbarian makes no sense whatsoever. That's the 19th century colonial picture. Of course today, a culture has not more or less prestige depending on whether it is derived from Indo-European roots: India today would have the exact same prestige if there had been no IAM; it just would be all-Dravidian instead of Indo-Aryan speaking. It's all in your mind, WIN. The world doesn't think better or worse of you if some of your ancestors 4000 years ago (200 generations!) lived in Usbekistan. They rather think worse of you because of your childish chauvinism. dab (ᛏ) 08:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
You don't have that basic knowledge of History and you are advicing me that it was gratitude(err ennobling act) of britishers to link with Indians.This shows your Euro-centric nature.When britishers or their ancestors were savage and Uzbek people were nomadic that time India was having advanced & vast civilization which was biggest. That's the difference between history of Indians & Britishers or Uzbek central asia. Your portray of britishers ennobling Indian culture is really sic! Then, General Dyer of Jallianwala Bagh Massacre should be termed as the God sent angel in this world !!! You don't have knowledge in this matter and accusing me as Hindu nationalists or chauvanistic which I strongly oppose.I am not terming any bias as Christian.It is pride of being an Indian which McCauley wanted to crush as noted above. Refer http://www.boloji.com/history/019.htm and notes on top by David Frawley. WIN
In above discussion, it's wrongly written as gratitude , it should be `ennobling act'. WIN 10:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
1. Max Müller was a British agent, especially employed (in 1847) to write the translations of the Vedas in such a demeaning way so that the Hindus should lose faith in them. His personal letter to his wife dated December 9, 1867 reveals this fact.
2. He was highly paid for this job. According to the statistical information given on page 214 of the “English Education, 1798-1902” by John William Adamson, printed by Cambridge University Press in 1930, the revised scale of a male teacher was £90 per year and for a woman, £60 in 1853. The present salary of a teacher in London is £14,000 to £36,000 per year, which averages a minimum of at least 200 times increase in the last 146 years. Max Müller was paid £4 per sheet of his writing which comes to £800 of today (1999). This is an incredibly high price for only one sheet of writing. But it’s the general law of business, that the price of a commodity increases with its demand. The British were in such an imperative need to get someone to do this job and Max Müller was the right person, so they paid whatever Max Müller asked for. His enthusiastic letter to his mother dated April 15, 1847 reveals this fact.
3. Max Müller’s letters dated August 25, 1856 and December 16, 1868 reveal the fact that he was desperate to bring Christianity into India so that the religion of the Hindus should be doomed.
His letters also reveal that:
4. He lived in poverty before he was employed by the British, (5) his duplicity in translation was praised by his superiors, and (6) in London, where he lived, there were a lot of orientalists working for the British.
Letters of Max Müller. “The Life and Letters of Friedrich Max Müller.” First published in 1902 (London and N.Y.). Reprint in 1976 (USA).
1. TO HIS WIFE, OXFORD, December 9, 1867.
“…I feel convinced, though I shall not live to see it, that this edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India, and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what that root is, I feel sure, the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3,000 years.”
2. TO HIS MOTHER, 5 NEWMAN'S ROW, LINCOLN'S INN FIELDS, April 15, 1847.
“I can yet hardly believe that I have at last got what I have struggled for so long… I am to hand over to the Company, ready for press, fifty sheets each year; for this I have asked £200 a year, £4 a sheet. They have been considering the matter since December, and it was only yesterday that it was officially settled.”
“…In fact, I spent a delightful time, and when I reached London yesterday I found all settled, and I could say and feel, Thank God! Now I must at once send my thanks, and set to work to earn the first £100.”
3. To Chevalier Bunsen. 55 St. John Street, Oxford, August 25, 1856.
“India is much riper for Christianity than Rome or Greece were at the time of St. Paul. The rotten tree has for some time had artificial supports… For the good of this struggle I should like to lay down my life, or at least to lend my hand to bring about this struggle. Dhulip Singh is much at Court, and is evidently destined to play a political part in India.”
To the duke of Argyll. Oxford, December 16, 1868.
“India has been conquered once, but India must be conquered again, and that second conquest should be a conquest by education. Much has been done for education of late, but if the funds were tripled and quadrupled, that would hardly be enough… A new national literature may spring up, impregnated with western ideas, yet retaining its native spirit and character… A new national literature will bring with it a new national life, and new moral vigour. As to religion, that will take care of itself. The missionaries have done far more than they themselves seem to be aware of.”
“The ancient religion of India is doomed, and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?”
4. (a) From the diary of Max Müller. Paris. April 10, 1845.
“I get up early, have breakfast, i.e. bread and butter, no coffee. I stay at home and work till seven, go out and have dinner, come back in an hour and stay at home and work till I go to bed. I must live most economically and avoid every expense not actually necessary. The free lodging is an immense help, for unless one lives in a perfect hole… I have not been to any theatre, except one evening, when I had to pay 2 francs for a cup of chocolate, I thought ‘Never again’.”
Chaipau, this is to make others understand that Max Muller who had (mis)-translated some Sanskrit Rig-Ved verses and was the promoter of Aryan Invasion Theory - had done on requirements of British kingdom.During his life time IVC was not excavated and he was the main promoter of theory that Superior & advanced Aryans invaded nomadic type Dravidian ancient India - based on his translations of Rig-Veda verses - and drove them to South India.From above mentioned letters to his mother & wife, it is clear that he was hugely paid by then British East India co.'s heads in London to falsely fabricate Indian scriptures and that way uproot the deepest faith of Hindus in their scriptures ( this is also told by McCauley in British Parliament as noted above ). So, one can understand that it was conspiracy of britishers to divide Hindus with Aryan & Dravidian , to uproot faith of Hindus from their religious back bone , to make Hindus think that their civilization is not that ancient & is based on winning documents of Aryans, to make them feel that Sanskrit for which hindus have high respect is not Indian language at all, Britishers are doing the same thing which Aryans have done earlier - invading India, to squeeze history of India and tell it to start after Aryans invasion of India around 1500 BC - because Rig-Veda is hailed as the oldest scriptures by Hindus, to loose faith in their religion and convert them faster by attcking their religious backbone - India is much riper for Christianity than Rome or Greece were at the time of St. Paul “The ancient religion of India is doomed, and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?”, hence possess India forever which was the most valuable jewel in British crown. WIN 08:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
William Jones (1746-1794), judge at Calcutta in British India was first to find some similarity between Sanskrit & Greek-Latin.And Monier-Williams (1819-1899) Orientalist was professor of Sanskrit at Oxford in 1860 and also authored Sanskrit-English Dictionary.Please note Max Muller's above mentioned words written to his wife regarding Rig-Veda "It is the root of their religion, and to show them what that root is, I feel sure, the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it" And, much before Max Muller's birth, Vedas were considered as backbone of their religion by Hindus. Please read above each words again. He wanted to show the root of Hinduism to Hindus and that way wanted to uproot Hindu thoughts. If Max Muller was not trying to break vedas, then how come such a knowledgable person in Sanskrit found Superior & Advanced type Aryans in Rig-Veda which are now considered as nomadic tribal type. He made Rig-Veda as some winning document of invading people ignoring deep knowledge in it ( Veda = Knowledge in Sanskrit)and promoted Aryan Invasion of India. India is like Europe in smaller land mass but more populus,where lives different linguistics & ethnic people.Even Europeans were divided with each other in 1700s-1800s during British occupation of India - they were fighting with each other and in 1900s Europeans fought two world wars also.Is this not greater divison among Europe than India.WIN 11:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Even I don't want to go out track from this topic but it's because of addressing me as Hindu nationalist & Chauvinistic,I am forced to show that Christian, nationalistic , Chauvinistic ideas were the very base for aryan theory promoter Max Muller ( evident from his letters ) or McCaulay ( evident from his speech in British parliament ).Max Muller had done his work for money sake and also to fulfill his religious zeal.McCaulay was offical paid servant of British empire and his speech in British Parliament proclaims British empire's Christian, nationalistic , Chauvinistic ideas. I again tell that " One who stays in Glass House should not throw stones to others " WIN 11:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
At the time of IVC, Europeans were in primitive stage of living and ancient Indians were highly advanced ( That time England was hardly habituated.) So,there is no question of any civilization in England or full Europe that time.So,your comparision is highly non-relavant & illogical.Instead of Max Muller's letters as proof , do you expect to show some Max Muller's Invoice raised to British Kingdom as evidence !!! This shows your pretention of being `logical'. Imagine Greenland's some people coming to USA and changing cultural & linguistic scene of current US people. This is same as some fabricated `Aryan' people of central asia coming to India in 1500 BC and changing cultural & linguistic scene of Indian sub-continent. Current some US people can go to Greenland or Northern Canada & inhabit there and change linguistic & culture of scantly populated people there but the reverse is not at all possible.The Aryan Migration theory makes us to be believe in possibility of above reverse scenario. WIN 14:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
WIN: can you cite a published source for the quotes from Max Müller's letters and diary?
I'd like to take WIN to Requests for Arbitration because of his use of talk pages as rambling discussion forums. However, I need two other signatures. Who would like to sign with me? CRCulver 17:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
You want some serious discussion on this matter.But you are not ready to comment any point which seriously troubles your accepted notion of Aryan Migration. WIN 04:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Since invasion is ruled out then how any aryans tribal people coming from out of India can be so effective so as to replace language & culture of already highly advanced Indian people for which there is no single mention in any Sanskrit or even in Tamil scriptures or in memory. Even Shaka who were invaders ( not migrators ) from central asia were assimilated in India without leaving any traces.Do you know anything about Sanskrit language and it's very high level grammer, which is indebted to those Aryans ? How come the supposed diffusion & amalgamation of tribal Aryans with ancient Indians was so successful that these advanced civilization accepted their language & culture overwhelmingly ? Ancient India's Indus Valley Civilization was having full knowledge of metalurgy,dance,small yogic postures statues,precise weight measurement systems with vast trade networks,navigation etc. as known today from excavations. Then, how come for all these things we find only Sanskrit names in India. And, how nomadic tribes of Aryans were so successful that they simply replaced wordings from vast Indian population with Sanskrit words ( without retaining any memory for previus words ). But Aryans were so so so effective that they even made South Indians to preserve by memory earliest Aryan Sanskrit scriptures of Rig-Veda & others. Then, those small nomadic Aryans tribes will be the unique in whole world as there are no parallels in the whole world for such a great great great achievements by any tribal nomadic people over more advanced civilized people !
Even in Iran sign of IVC type civilized people are found after 1900 BC ( approx. date of drying of Saraswati river of Rig-Ved ) about which I have raised questions in Aryan Invasion Theory's discussion page but no supporter is turning up to comment on it because it is a set back to Aryan theory.And, instead they are commenting on my English ( sic ! ) If you are right in any way then why this theory is changing. How can you rely on the very basis of this theory proposing persons who had `discovered' Superior civilized Aryans from Rig-Ved verses - as invading inferior aborginial type Indians, then after IVC excavation - nomadic type aryans over advanced civilized Indians and now -nomadic aryans migrating peacefully & diffusing with Indians. If this theory proposing western Sanskrit scholars were wrong in their interpretation of Rig-Ved which they have to do from written Sanskrit books then how can one accept about their speculations of non-indian aryan people - who were only linguists and not specialized in any other subjects. WIN
Vertigo, since I am writing here;don't misunderstand about my day to day work. This shows your nature.For your kind info, I have many other important things to do as a head of ltd. co. It's because of my deep interest & knowledge about India that I am writing here.It's not some fun for me to write here. But definetely, it's funny thing that you are writing such totally out of track things here ( instead of commenting on any proper writings - may be due to lack of knowledge ).
Note some examples, English attempts to remove Welsh language from Welsh for centuaries. Still Welsh language has not died as mother tongue and infact reviving currently. Arabs invasion of persia ( Iran ) which made religious conversions and was not able to change language of Iranian people which is Persian or Farsi.Muslim rules in India from 12th century could not replace language of people. Roman church is not able to change language of people of Europe. So, how can you expect to change linguistic & cultural landscape of vast Indian subcontinent by some `Aryans' from central asia. As now said that Hinduism evolved from strong IVC substrate after Aryans came to India, then how & why each & every term of Hindu scriptures became Sanskritic. Yoga for which we find different Yoga postures small statues from IVC, then how & why full basic nomenclature of Yoga changed to Sanskrit ( even Yoga is Sanskrit word ). In spiritual matter if Aryans had to accept more than to give ; then how come all Hindu scriptures were in Sanskrit. WIN
This is not `evidence' as told by Dab.To term this speculation as `evidence' is not proper. Similarly, many speculations for this theory which were held as some `evidences' is a great blunder today. It seems that the whole meaning of cultural asimiliation is reversed only for India. Chaipau is again describing scenario of invasion of IVC which is ruled out.I have mentioned above that even severe invasions in Iran or India could not replace the language of people. And, don't forget that Prakrit Languages are direct descendant of Sanskrit.These Prakrits were already people's languages during Buddha & Mahavir's time.Prakrits are just degraded forms of Sanskrit with no typical deep grammer of Sanskrit.If retroflex is of Dravidian origin then why earliest Sanskrit scriptures like Rig-Ved also contains these retroflex words and remember that correct reciting of all Sanskrit verses was deeply stressed to prevent any degradation.Indian languages contain 56 sound words letters, where as non-Indian languages have around half of it.If correct Sanskrit verses reciting was so much stressed then why any Aryan people will accept any change in their language.It clearly seems that above written speculations were without deep understanding in this matter or due to motivation of clearly mis-guiding people. I am saying this because previous Western Sanskrit scholars had `found' invasion in aryan Rig-Ved and speculated dravidians in South as some invasion `evidence'- a clear misguide. WIN
I forgot all about taking him to RfA, but please, someone just ban him straightaway if that is possible. He's never made a single well-sourced, productive edit with idiomatic, correct English. Underneath all the show of making an argument, it's really just vandalism. CRCulver 06:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I just missed one point to tell you about Retroflex in Sanskrit. If retroflex in Sanskrit is due to Dravidian influence then why in Avesta - which is called as written in Avestan language and composed by Iranians also contains similar retroflex words. Now, if you have read any Avesta verses and if you know Sanskrit then you will immediately come to know that Avesta is also written in language which is very similar to Sanskrit. But it also shows Sanskrit Apabransh type words and it's grammer is very similar to Sanskrit.Avesta's verses are also made in similar style of Rig-Veda. Check out http://www.avesta.org where you can find original Avesta in Roman script.So,how come this Iranian Avesta contains retroflex which is predominant Dravidian as per Aryan theory supporters ? WIN
In Avesta, Yasna 53 mentions Vahishta which is Sanskrit Vashishta ( also found in Rig-Ved as creator of many hymns & in Ramayan ) and in this Sanskrit name `sh' is a retroflex. Changing of Sanskrit `s' to Avestan `h' is very well known.So, there is retroflex in Avestan. Also, Russian & Polish which are Indo-European languages have retroflexs. Then, should we understand that South Indian dravidians influenced & lived in Russia & Poland also ? Read more for croatia & Horovathos http://www.hr/darko/etf/et01.html#origins WIN 08:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
If it is okay with the community here, I will simply start reverting all of WIN's diatribe-like additions to this Talk page. However, I think a more satisfactory solution would be his banning. CRCulver 12:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Until WIN realizes that we are not here to settle for once and for all the truthfulness of the Indo-Aryan migration section, but rather to reflect the findings of reputable scholars, I will continue to revert his diatribes, because they are simple vandalism. I urge all other conscientious editors to do the same. If WIN made a comment here that actually served the purpose of Wikipedia---polishing the article into a true reflection of scholarly opinion (which does not come from citing amateur websites)---then I would not revert it. Time will only tell if he wises up. CRCulver 07:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, it looks like he's blocked for good. Thank goodness. Should we edit out all his diatribes from this page? CRCulver 09:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
He (WIN) made some fairly good points, but for you all its "diatribe". This sounds like Witzel all over again. He provided evidence from Ramayan and Vedas, but of course, those are rants. Look at it objectively.Bakaman%% 03:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Paul,
I am sorry but I can’t let your edit stand in its current form. It must be modified to remove all anti-indian bias from it and make it neutral, factual and objective.
Regarding the first statement, i.e. “As an example, they argue that positions of stars they allege are described in the Vedas point to the 3rd millennium BC or even earlier.” The word allege will have to go. What people claim is what they claim. They never ‘allege’ while making claims. So the first statement should be written as
As an example, they argue/claim that positions of stars as described in the Vedas point to the 3rd millennium BC or even earlier.
Coming to the second statement i.e. “Such dating claims based on archaeoastronomy are widely rejected as pseudoscience”, since it is a contested statement, sources must be provided for this statement. You can’t make a sweeping statement that “such claims are widely rejected” when a significant chunk of world population hotly contests it. Moreover, such statement also violates Wikipedia policy against weasel words . I suggest that you read the policy page regarding weasel words and educate yourself about how such statement can compromise the neutrality of an article in subtle ways.
Therefore the second statement will be acceptable in the following format:-
Such dating claims based on archaeoastronomy are rejected by so and so persons and/or organizations as pseudoscience. {references' links here}
Please consider these points before attempting any more reverts.
Sisodia 02:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
no. there are two claims: (a) positions of stars are described in the vedas, and (b) these positions point to a particular date. If we merely say "people claim that the positions described point to such and such a date", we only present (b) as a claim while taking (a) for granted. The "alleged" leaves room for (a) being a claim rather than a fact. More detail (what is disputed, what is commonly accepted) can only be discussed for a particular example. Archaeoastronomy is not a method in good standing. We should properly remove the entire section until people come forward with more specific information. At Hindu astronomy I discussed one specific case. The upshot is that there is no gain of information to be derived from this stuff (other cases lie similar). Archaeoastronomy can be used to show that the Vedas were composed at some point during the past 8000 years, but hey, we already knew that. It is unfair of you to ask to specify who denounces 'such claims' without specifying the precise claims first. dab (ᛏ) 08:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is unreadable. If I want to read about Indo-Aryan migration, I should be able to read about it without running into refutations at each and every sentence. This point has been made earlier. I suggest that objections to this "theory" be moved to a separate section or another article. Chaipau 18:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I suggest this move, it is more accurate. While a google search is not always appropriate, the search ""indo-aryan migration" -wikipedia" and ""aryan migration theory" -wikipedia" have almost the same results, with AMT having slightly more results.
Otherwise, the intro in the article is false. There were of course also other indo-aryan migrations, then the migration of the AMT. --Rayfield 19:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
the scope of this article is any migration of early Indo-Aryans, including that of the Mitanni. Therefore, this article does not cover a particular 'theory', but the spectrum of scholarly opinions on where and when then Indo-Aryans separated from the Proto-Iranians, and how they got to India. The "Invasion theory" is a polemical distortion of "blitzkrieg" scenarios, purposedly formulated so as to make it sound improbable. The scope of the article does not extend to later migrations of Indo-Aryans, such as the Roma, because these are sub-branches of Indo-Aryan, that can be better identified as "Roma migration", "Gandhari migration" or whatever. But any description of BCE migrations of Indo-Aryans should fall within its scope. All we know for certain is that the IA language reached India at some point in the early 2nd millennium. There are various scenarios of how this may have come to pass, and they can all be discussed here. dab (ᛏ) 05:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The article has two images about Andronovo. The Andronovo pictures would rather belong to the Indo-Iranian migration or Indo-Iranian origins article. (These articles should be created.) The Andronovo model has also its critics, and its relation to I-I and especially I-A is controversial. Therefore, one Andronovo image might be enough for this article. Also, the Andronovo is not the only model used to explain the migration of I-I and I-A. There are also other models within the AMT paradigma, but the Andronovo model is almost the only one discussed, but the other models should also be mentioned (such as Nichols Sogdiana model). Then the image caption says: "archaeological cultures associated with Indo-Iranian expansion (after EIEC).". I think the image caption should be rewritten a bit, because it sounds like this the source endorses these hypotheses, while in fact it only describes them and also lists some objections to these theories. (The original image caption in the book uses expressions like "have often been seen", "which some argue", which "may reflect either" or "candidates include".) --Rayfield 19:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
(ᛏ) 20:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Dab, in RV 1.64.7 and RV 4.16.14 Mrga Hastin occurs. Many scholars have translated this as elephant. Ibha is only used in the Samhitas and especially in the Rig Veda, and some scholars also translate ibha as elephant. And Varana is also in the RV and also translated by some as elephant. --Rayfield 21:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
It is true that Jones in 1782 already assumed a "common source, now lost" of Greek and Sanskrit. However, Jones was not the first European scholar to compare the two languages, and even after Jones, the archaic nature of Sanskrit was rather over-estimated for many decades. Even the "PIE" of Schleicher's fable (1868) reads almost like Sanskrit. So yes, people immediately realized that Sanskrit is not equal to PIE, but the preconception that Sanskrit is exceptionally close to PIE persisted until the later 19th century, which is the point we should be making here. (today, it is assumed that Vedic Sanskrit is a typical language of the mid-2nd-millennium in terms of archaicity, which is -duh- part of why the Rigveda is dated to the mid-2nd-millennium; if we had a "European Rigveda" dated to 1500 BC, its grammar would be similarly archaic (but it's phonology unsatemized); but since we don't have such a European text, this is a matter of (albeit rather confident) reconstruction, of course) dab (ᛏ) 13:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the early idea that Sanskrit and Avestan were close to PIE is indicated. I've added a bit about the early speculation about a link to the Japhetites already added in predictably distorted form by User:Ganga Hare. The notion that Jones proposed IE "to show the correctness of the Biblical, Tower of Babel theory" is of course nonsense, but he does assume the accuracy of Genesis, and attempt to fit Hindu mythology into the events it describes,
We have, therefore, determined another interesting epoch, by fixing the age of Crishna near the three thousandth year from the present time; and, as the three first Avatàrs, or descents of Vishnu, relate no less clearly to an Universal Deluge, in which eight persons only were saved, than the fourth and the fifth do to the punishment of impiety and the humiliation of the proud, we may for the present assume, that the second, or silver, age of the Hindus was subsequent to the dispersion from Babel; so that we have only a dark interval of about a thousand years, which were employed in the settlement of nations, the foundation of states or empires, and the cultivation of civil society.
This does fit with early claims concerning the antiquity of Sanskrit, since Iran/Indus/Bactria would be assumed to be an early place of settlement for the Japhetites, from which they could then expand into Europe - OIT indeed! Jones even suggests that the figure of Odin derives from the Buddha. Paul B 12:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
we keep getting edits that attack strawmen, i.e. try to disprove things that aren't even claimed, the most popular being
in short, it should be made perfectly clear that the mainstream scenario of IAM does NOT claim a military invasion, does NOT claim that the I-As overthrew the IVC, and does NOT claim that most, or even many, of the ancestors of modern Indians lived outside India in 2000 BC.
A useful comparison would maybe be Peru: From 1960 to 1990, use of indigenous languages fell from 40% to 30%: Only some 15% of Peruvians are of Spanish ancestry, but 70% of Peruvians speak Spanish natively. This is the situation 500 years after the invasion (and it was a clear 'invasion' in this case); extrapolate from this how the language distribution might look after another 1000 years. The point is that a slim population influx (10%) can completely overturn the linguistic landscape in a matter of a couple of centuries. Religion is even clearer: 80% of Peruvians are Roman Catholics (vs. 15% of European ancestry). Although there is a lot of syncretism: "Peruvian Catholicism" retains elements aboriginal Peruvian religion. This is what happens every time in such situations, and it is exactly what is expected in the case of India 1500-500 BC: Vedic religion was Indo-Iranian religion syncretized with post-IVC religion. dab (ᛏ) 18:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
1. Then how come Rig-Veda mentions greatness & vastness of Saraswati river & mentions as flowing from Mountains to Ocean.As found by Geologists that Saraswati river ( present Ghaggar-Hakra small water channels flowing on same route of this mightiest of all Sapta Sindhu river ) which dried from Indian subcontinent before 2600 BC or totally vanished atleast before 1900 BC, should not be known to some Indo-Aryans. And, then they should not be able to make towns ( sanskrit vedic pur ) on her banks and base their life on their mother river as said in Rig-Veda.
2. USA was occupied by Europeans by invasion route then also USA's biggest rivers Mississippi and Missouri's names are original native american. So, how come every Indian rivers names changed based on some Central Asian tribal people's Sanskrit language. Even South India's biggest rivers names ( Godavari river, Krishna river , Kaveri river )changed based on some central asian tribal language. Then, those central asian tribal aryans must be very great people that they could do what their same native central asian Saka & Hunas invaders could not do.
3. Greek historian Pliny ( Elder one ) mentions in 360 BC that Indians are having kings list & calender going back to some 6000 years.i.e. these ancient Indians ( Dravidians as per this theory ) were maintaining calender from such a long time. Then, how come each & every Astronomy based terms in India is Sanskrit ( so called Central Asian tribal people's language ). Check Pliny the Elder's `The Natural History' 6.21 and it's link http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137&query=head%3D%23253 and his writings from the link " From the time of Father Liber to that of Alexander the Great, one hundred and fifty-three kings of India are reckoned, extending over a period of six thousand four hundred and fifty-one years and three months". When Pliny finds India and Indian population to be very vast which they have never seen alike in any country then how come some so called central asian tribal aryans were so so so able as told ?
4. From IVC , it's found some teeth being drilled to do dental treatment and this dental treatment drilling is found by European excavators. i.e. IVC people were having developed Dental surgerical knowledge and knowledge about human health and well being. Which is exactly Ayurveda as known to Indians today. Ayurveda's foundations are considered in vedas like Atharvaveda. Refer the articles http://archaeology.about.com/od/inventions/qt/dentistry.htm and New York Times report http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/07/science/07teeth.html?ex=1152417600&en=501d7993d9a79d1a&ei=5070 . Why IVC Indian people will change each & every terminology of human health to some Central Asian tribal people's language ? Dental word is derived from Sanskrit word Dant = Teeth. Since ancient Indians were having good dental surgical knowledge then why they will change teeth's name to Sanskrit Dant. Ayurveda is full science of human health whose roots are found in other vedas. Then how central asian aryans were able to make such in depth knowledge about Indian plants & it's medicinal values, effects of seasons on human health etc. within some hundreds of years which their so called non-Indian brothers & sisters could not do still today.
5. Yoga postures are found from IVC excavations as small terracota statues. Why anybody will change each & every Yoga postures' names to some central asian tribal people's language ?
6. During Indus Valley Civilization ancient Indians were very advanced with number system and decimal system as evident from weight measurement stones used.They are found over entire IVC ancient India. They had uniform bricks in perfect ratio of 1 : 2 : 4 which is still best ratio for brick and still used. This shows that time's advanced mathematical knowledge permeated down to common man and over extremely vast civilized area. Then, why ancient Indians will accept names of 1,2,3,... etc. very basic thing from some central asian nomads via Sanskrit ?
All these means that Sanskrit having highly advanced technical grammer and words can be a native language of India and not of some tribal people of central asia. WIN 12:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
MY WRITINGS HERE ARE NOT ANY DIATRIBES AS TOLD BY MY OPPOSERS. IT CONTAINS VERY LOGICAL POINTS ABOVE FOR WHICH YOU DON'T REQUIRE ANY REFERENCE MATERIAL AS IT'S COMMONLY KNOWN POINTS. DELETING MY POINTS MEANS THAT YOU WANT TO ADHERE TO " NEGATION " OF ANY ANY POINT WHICH SLIGHTLY GOES OUT OF THE FAVOUR OF THIS THEORY MODEL. YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW ONLY YOUR POV LIKE ABOVE PERU WRITINGS BUT YOU WANT TO DELETE ANY RATIONALIZING POINTS. IT IS EVIDENT FROM YOUR DELETIONS WRITTEN BY noble/eagle WHO HAD WRITTEN SOME POINTS SITING FRAWLEY. BUT YOU ARE NEGATING ANY VALID POINTS WHICH TRIES TO RATIONALIZE YOUR SIDE OF POV. WIN 05:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Instead of spelling errors pay attention to main contents and it's logic. WIN 13:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
What in the world is going on here? First of all these opponents of WIN do a robot like delete of all of his article edits. Now, getting emboldened by the fact is WIN is alone on the other side, they think that they can get away with anything. Now they are deleting some well constructed (and in fairly comprehensible English to boot) arguments by him from the talk pages too! This is pure undisguised vandalism and will not be accepted by other like minded editors.
If you can't answer his questions at least let them stand in talk pages unanswered. Future editors of this article will have some background knowledge of the issues that came up during the development of this article. If nothing else a full archive of talk pages will prevent such disputes from re-erupting because it will show futures editors that these issues have already been argued and left inconclusive.
Crculver, I am refraining from reporting you to admins notice board this time. Next time you will have it if you still engage in such idiotic behavior.
Sisodia 03:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Crculver, I just saw your message on my user talk page. Apparently you deleted WIN’s edit from the article talk page because as per your understanding of wikipedia policies, it violates violates WP:NOR. I would like to quote from the same WP:NOR policy page that you have put forth so earnestly in support of your vandalism.
Quote
Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages, although it is regarded as poor taste to discuss personal theories on talk pages.
Unquote
And this is the Wikipedia position even presuming that WIN is propagating an original research, which I can most certainly assure you that he is not. What WIN is arguing is a very popular alternate view of origin of Aryans. Anybody who has a basic understanding of the ideological currents in modern India can vouch for this fact. So even if you find WIN’s arguments in poor taste, I would advice you to let them be. Let the wikipedia readers decide whose position is closer to truth.
Sisodia 04:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Crculver, if you find me as propogating some original research idea then why History of Greece mentions that Indo-European was a myth ? And, for your kind info that's not my "original research idea". Then, you should be able to answer my above mentioned central asia aryan suspecting sub-heading points which refutes this myth. WIN 05:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I am expecting some sensible & logical answers for suspects of central asian aryan heading. For citing above points, you require understanding of the subject and not assertions about `mainstream acedamics'.
Your current very much "mainstream" acedamic M.Witzel is found to mis-translate BSS verse to find some `into India' migration from Sanskrit scriptures. I have already cited links to this problem earlier where you will find all ref. if you READ. Otherwise, without reading & understanding recent developments you will always refer old matters in this thoery. If anybody says that vedas were composed by some "primitive barbarians" then that means he/she is totally ignoring deep thinking & science ( astronomical , mathematical, life science, language science etc. etc. ) in it - which can not be conceptualized by "primitive barbarians". Any logical person knowing history knows that Ancient Greece point can not be equated with Ancient India. WIN 12:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Crculver, you are DELETING above central asian aryan points. Now, if you delete again then I will report to admin notice board. Your continuous deletion shows pure vandalism in this subject which will not be tolerated. Instead keep it here unanswered to read others or answer to it logically ( if you can ). WIN 05:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by `home spun points'? Indians know more & deeper than you and that's why this logical points. If you can not answer or understand them then it's perfectly allright with me. WIN 11:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The following has been added and is disputed:
There is a complete absence of Harappan sites along the present courses of the Yamuna and the Sutlej. Had these two rivers been flowing in their present channels during the Harappan times, the Harappan people would have certainly established their settlements along their banks. On the contrary, there are many sites of the later Painted Grey Ware (PGW) culture, dated 1000-600 B.C., along the banks of these rivers.
Saraswati has been eulogized in many hymns of the Rig Veda as a mighty, perennial and sacred river, flowing from the mountains into the Arabian Sea. In the later epics Mahabharata and Ramayana this river is described as having disappeared underground. Critics point out that the Vedic Saraswati could have been river Helmand in Afghanistan and since there are many rivers with name Saraswati in India, the name could have been transported from Afghanistan. However, B B Lal states [1] that according to Rig Veda:
- Saraswati lay between the Yamuna and Sutlej - imam me Gange Yamune Sarasvati Sutudri stotam sachata Parusnya (RV 10.75.5).
- Drishadvati and Apaya were its tributaries - Drishadvatyam manusa Apayam Sarasvatyam revadagne didihi (RV 3.23.4).
- The Saraswati flowed all the way from the mountains to the sea - ekachetat Sarasvati nadinam suchir yati giribhya a samudrat (RV 7.95.2).
In Afghanistan there are no rivers by the name of Yamuna and Sutlej, nor are there Drishadvati and Apaya. Further, there is no sea in Afghanistan.
I don't understand the purport of this text, which fails to clarify what bits of "fact" are related to what argument. It is not clear what the opening para is intended to argue. If the yamuna and sultej were not running they couldn't have been mentioned in a "Harappan" RV. I don't know of any mention of the "Arabian sea" in the RV. The issue about flowing to the "sea" is a translation dispute. This is discussed far more coherently in the current Sarasvati River article. Paul B 11:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Saraswati's nearby rivers are Yamuna & Sutlej as mentioned in Rig-Veda. And, there are no rivers named Yamuna or Sutlej (Shatudri) in present Afghanistan. This is very basic and logical understanding which indicates that Saraswati has to be an Indian river & not Afghani. But then also, so called Indologists had refuted this basic fact and tried to associte Helmund with Rig-Vedic Saraswati river. That's why I always say that if this is the level of undestanding ( or clear negation of clear facts ) then what's the use in reading those age old books that equate Helmund = Rig-Vedic Saraswati.
I had mentioned this very basic understanding in previous writings on talk pages of Aryan Migration or Aryan Invasion Theory. My suspects for central asian aryans are of similar case where you require undestanding (and not negation of very basic facts).
Saraswati river's geography in Rig-Ved and other Sanskrit scriptures like Mahabharat etc. points that it has to meet Arabian sea and not Bay of Bengal. That time Arabian sea which is modern name will not be there , but by Arabic sea it mentions geographicy as currently known.
Samundra = pond was deduced to equate Helmund = Rig-Vedic Saraswati,which was false fabrication of always known meaning of Samundra = sea /ocean in Sanskrit or Indian languages. In all Indian languages ( even in South Indian Dravidian languages ) samundra = sea /ocean and never ever = pond. But it seems that writing about this basic understanding is considered as off-topic rants because it is against supporters' views or without ref. WIN 12:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
But Pundits ( who are brahmins & who have preserved Sanskrit scriptures before advent of modern Printing Press )and who are held as Indo-Aryan people from central asia by so called Indologists are infact opposing this theory most. So called Indologists have never consulted them about their own opinions about their origins. But so called Western scholars have used their own speculations to write this theory which was by-product of British Raj's divide & rule policy and notion of European white superiority. It's not brahmnin pundits at all, but Max Mullerians who are saying that brahmins were from central asia.One who are said to have brought Sanskrit language from central asia and one who have preserved all Sanskrit scriptures for thousands of years ( which is unparallel in World History ) are told to have forgot within some 200-400 years of coming to India that they ( brahmins ) have come from central asia. When, they can compose & preserve thousands of Sanskrit verses perfectly for thousands of years ; how can they fail to remember that they are not native of India ( like Iranians `so called' brothers are mentioning in Avesta that they are not native of Iran ).
American history is not old than 500 years and well documented.So, Americans and graduate in american history from non-american universities have single version for American history.But for Indian history which is more than 5,000 years old and not a single Indian scripture says about some central asian aryans. Even , brahmin pundits are not saying about any AIT/AMT. So,my dear , obviously their thousands of years old version is more authentic than version of 150 years old american university versions( written by non-Indians ). WIN 07:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Existence of River Saraswati gives rise to the following logical steps.
Therefore, Rig Veda must have been written in India before 1700 BC and it was written at the same time when IVC was flourishing.
What is the disagreement about? Is it that:
Nobody says that Saraswati river name is only related to India alone. But Rig-vedic mightiest of all Sapta Sindhu river ,Saraswati river which was not meeting sea during Mahabharat time is certainly Indian. Afghani Saraswati ( Helmund ) is small river not meeting ocean , is case of transfering name of Mahabharat time's Saraswati river's name to similar non-ocean ending small river in Afghanistan. In USA, you find so many places names like New York, Florence in North West pacific , New England etc. which were taken from old habituated place. These USA place names were given due to remembering old lived place and/or finding similar looking old area / town. So, this is similar case of transfering name of non-ocean ending Mahabharat times' river name to similar Afghani river. And, reverse what you are saying can not be true due to above reasons. Also, changing of `S' to `H' is possible but not the reverse.
If Rig-Vedic Saraswati is some Afghani small river then why it's name will be carried till Croatia (Hrvti).
Suppose, if Ganga river dries in future then it will be remembered due to it's importance. Same way IVC Saraswati river is remembered still today by Indians. Why Indians will remember some small Afghani river ?
If Rig-Vedic Saraswati is first some Afghani small river then why it's name will be carried till Croatia (Hrvti). I think that one will have to be utterly illogical like you so as not to undestand this. WIN 10:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Why some Israel place names are Sanskrit and associating Mahabharat like Palmahim, Kishon and Caesarea.
Kishon is kishan ( or Krishna's apbhransh similar in Hindi ) . Caesarea means Kesaria ( which is also very sanskrit ) and this name is also related with Krishna as Kesaria for Krishna. Kesar = Saffron in English. Palmahim is word in Sanskrit and used specially for Kings. This word is used like ` My Lord ' used for Judge in Courts.
Word movement is indeed very old process. WIN 10:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not saying this but above Israel place names are exactly similar to Sanskrit. In Russia, there is a big city named Novosibirsk. Now, Novosibir is exactly same pronounced in Bengali for Sanskrit word, Navashibir. Novo = new and sibir = camp. And, adding `sk' after is russian trademark. In Siberia , there is a city named Omsk ( near to Novosibirsk ) which is Om = very famous Hindu sanskrit word. WIN 11:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
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