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106.76.243.76 (talk) 15:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
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I would like to edit this because i have a reliable source 216.56.68.178 (talk) 19:58, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
I am very interested to learn how the Ancient Egyptian and Indus Valley civilisation coincided or interacted. However, I disagree with the displacement of Ancient Egypt out of Africa and to the 'East'. Ancient Egypt was an African civilisation, and the description of it as 'eastern' is misleading, but understandable considering the age of the quote. Also, Wright's opinion is stated as if it was fact. Also, he seems to be quoting Childe, from 1950? That's a long time ago. I would say that source is a little outdated. Wright 2010 (citing Childe in 1950):Quote: "The Indus civilisation is one of three in the 'Ancient East' that, along with Mesopotamia and Pharonic Egypt, was a cradle of early civilisation in the Old World (Childe 1950).MrSativa (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
References
may be legitimately spelled with either -ize or -ise throughout the English-speaking world (except in America, where -ize is always used)...Cambridge University Press and others prefer -ise
End copied text. Doug Weller talk 17:06, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Indian English, however, uses -ise virtually exclusively, and since Ind/Pak are almost certainly going to provide a disproportionate number of readers of this article, I'd think one would need a very convincing argument to change it to American spelling. Whatever Wikipedia's article may say, Oxford Spelling is virtually dead in BrEng outside the OED itself—even Oxford University itself has abandoned it. ‑ Iridescent 17:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I inadvertently messed up a link and associated text in the Bibliography section. I created an article on Naida Kirkpatrick, an author who was cited for her book on Indus Valley. I was attempting to link her name in this bibliography to her Wikipedia page. I'm not sure what I did wrong. I tried to fix it but it's still not correct.
I am hoping someone with more experience can correct the bibliography citation on this page, and link Naida Kirkpatrick's name to her Wikipedia page: Naida_Kirkpatrick
Thank you and I apologize for the inconvenience. Tjhouse23 (talk) 07:09, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler:, Can you tell us what the problems were that necessitated this revert ? I am also not sure which "original version" has been reinstated here. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:34, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
An edit by BodduLokesh got reverted this morning. The edit wasn't great, but I believe that it was on the right track. In the lead that got reverted by Fowler&fowler, I had put Indus-Sarasvati civilisation along with reliable sources. The importance of the Sarasvati river to the Harappan civilisation is acknowledge by contemporary scholars, e.g., Jane McIntosh.[1] The Left-Right ideological divide among the Indian scholars has generally clouded the issue, but the evidence is clear that the Sarasvati river was a major component of the civilisation. We should not underplay this issue.
References
- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:10, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Being a redirect does not qualify for inclusion in the lead or for that matter in the rest of the article. The lead is very carefully worded. It does not say that the civilization is called the Indus-Ghaggar-Hakra civilization, only that many sites are found along the Indus and the seasonal Ghaggar-Hakra river, which once coursed through the region, that is, in greater volume. (Aside: That much the satellite imagery and coring data establishes. The dating of that ancient river and tectonic shift etc resulting in the switch across the continental divide, is not firmly of the Vedic- or Post-Vedic Age. The latest PNAS article casts doubt on even the fact of the full river. Say its authors,
"Contrary to earlier assumptions that a large glacier-fed Himalayan river, identified by some with the mythical Sarasvati, watered the Harappan heartland on the interfluve between the Indus and Ganges basins, we show that only monsoonal-fed rivers were active there during the Holocene. As the monsoon weakened, monsoonal rivers gradually dried or became seasonal, affecting habitability along their courses." See "Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization" by Liviu Giosan et al, Proc. National Academy of Sciences USA, 2012)
Articles are not named according to their ancient names, besides the Harappan language remains undeciphered. The drying up of the larger Ghaggar Hakra river system, which some have identified with the river Saraswati of the Rig Veda, though without reliable evidence (as the PNAS article suggests), can be mentioned in the section on the decline of IVC (along with climate change etc), but it does not belong to the lead. There is an ideological history behind the use of the term Saraswati in things Harappan. It is a relatively recent term, dating back to the late 1980s, invented by some archaeologists of the Archaeological Survey of India, who in their retirement were to profess Hindu nationalist sympathies, who were also finding, some say manufacturing, a vast number of "sites," on the Indian side of the India Pakistan border. It is thus seen an attempt both to paint the Indus civilization in Aryan colors, and to claim it for the Republic of India. Other tertiary sources such as Encyclopaedia Britannica do not mention it, nor do they accept the exaggerated number of IVC "sites" in India (see here). The lead is sourced to Rita Wright's Ancient Indus, (Cambridge University Press, 2009), a book which uses the term "Ghaggar Hakra river" for the modern remnants of a putative larger ancient river system. The map in the lead, besides, shows only the Ghagggar-Hakra seasonal river, as does the Britannica map, which doesn't name it, as does the Jane McIntosh map, which calls it only Ghaggar. Here are a few more scholarly archaeology books which use Ghaggar Hakra in this manner, as a pivot for the geographical extent (described in present-day terminology) of the ancient civilization, and do not use Saraswati, which, obviously, is not the name of a modern river.
I am traveling and without sources. This is the best I can do at this time. Again, the Saraswati does not belong to the lead. For the drive-bys who periodically insert it in the lead, I suggest they read WP:Lead fixation. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:43, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler: Thanks for the detailed response in the midst of your travel. I should have known that we would fall right into the Left-Right divide. The divide is real. For the right-wingers, the river is necessarily "Sarasvati." For the left-wingers it is necessarily "Ghagghar-Hakra." I don't subscribe to either ideology.
I can't access Rita P. Wright's book online, but I would be interested to know what she says about the "Sarasvati" river when you get a chance to check. Here is what I know. Gregory Possehl's "lead" says this:
"In this section, the cultural/ natural regions of the Indus Civilization, called Domains, are presented, along with the nature and history of the two principal rivers: the Indus and Sarasvati. Climatic change is discussed, and, finally, a short review of Indus Civilization settlement patterns and subsistence regimes is offered."[1]
The section on Sarasvati begins with
"There is a river in the Great Indian Desert that is mostly dry. Today it is generally called Ghaggar in India and Hakra in Pakistan. In ancient times it was called Sarasvati and appears in the Rgveda in many places. It was a holy river, the “foremost of rivers,” in the Vedas:...Linguistic, archaeological, and historical data show that the Sarasvati of the Vedas is the modern Ghaggar or Hakra."
Sudheshna Guha's review article has this footnote (29):
"Jonathan Mark Kenoyer and Gregory Possehl also accept this geography, believing that the ‘archaeological data supports the textual information that proclaims the ancient Sarasvati as a great river withmany populous settlements along its course’ (Kenoyer 1997: 52)[2], and that ‘the Sarasvati began to dry up at the beginning of the second millennium, but that seems to have taken a lot of time’ (Possehl 2002: 36)[3].They have not as yet speculated on its exact course from the source to mouth.[4]
Of the citations you have provided that I am able to access online,
So, as per the sources, I don't see any need to exclude the mention of "Sarasvati." - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:45, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
(Adding note:) I am not pushing for Indus-Sarasvati civilisation. I believe the term was there earlier when I edited it last time. After researching, I added Upinder Singh as a reliable citation. I agree that it is only the Indigenous Aryanists that push this term, and it is best to avoid it. However, I see no problem with mentioning the "Sarasvati river" as a key component of the civilisation. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:35, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
References
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(help)Can you give us a few examples of what you consider the "Left" POV on this page? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Kautilya3, I'm afraid you might be claiming certainty where there is little or none. Irfan Habib is not an archeologist or historian of Bronze Age India. He has written a series on Indian history and he's been involved in debates. But that is a turf battle in Indian academia. Why do you keep bringing him up, and keep talking of the Left-Right divide, as if all sources are equal on WP? The best known researchers of IVC are not in India, so how does it matter what the Indians think? Sarasvati has by no means been positively identified, though there are many theories. The Rg Vedic Saraswati is a mighty river, rising in the Himalayas, or perhaps it is the Helmand river in Afghanistan, or perhaps the river that goes underground and reappears in Allahabad from below, or perhaps is a mighty river in the sky. Who has "identified" it with the Ghaggar and how? Auriel Stein had his theory, but he and others in the 1930s had many theories that would make them blush were they around today. The Sarasvati's cognate occurs in the Avestan and there is history of Indo-Iranian seven rivers (Hapta Hendu). It doesn't matter how many times Possehl (2002) or Kenoyer (1998) mention "Saraswati" or "Sarasvati." Their knowledge of geophysics is rudimentary (I know this with some certainty about one of them.) They have assumed that the researches of some Indian government geologists, itself flawed and of poor quality, had "identified" a the bed of a major extinct river flowing from the Himalayas westwards.
But the work of Giosan et al (a major 15 author study from many continents) has rendered all the old stuff null and void. There is simply no one big river, but rather many monsoon fed rivers that watered the general area in which IVC sites have been found in western India and eastern Pakistan, rivers which gradually became seasonal with considerably lessened discharge. It is only recently begun to find its way into research monographs and textbooks. See, for example, Brooke, John L. (2014), Climate Change and the Course of Global History: A Rough Journey, Cambridge University Press, p. 296, ISBN 978-0-521-87164-8, which states the current consensus and which even mentions Possehl in the footnotes (also reproduced below with urls):
Secondly, the problem of mentioning it in the lead is not one of left or right, but of WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. For determining what is undue and what is not, WP suggests looking at review articles, other tertiary sources. These, especially in archaeology, hardly ever mention Sarasvati or Saraswati, whether they mention Ghaggar or Hakra. If the consensus is not to mention Ghaggar Hakra in the lead, so be it; but Saraswati is now dead in IVC, the death blow having been delivered by the paper Giosan et al, a paragraph from which I quoted in my very first post in this thread. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Indian languages, especially Sanskrit and other Indo-Aryan languages, do not distinguish between "v" and "w" phonetically. There is only one letter in the Devanagari script for both these English letters. So, I'm a little mystified why the river on Wikipedia is spelled Sarasvati river but the goddess personifying the river is called Saraswati. If you examine the edit history of Sarasvati river you will see that it started out as "Saraswati river," but a few edits later an IP changed to spelling without explanation. I'm posting here because the river (ie the river of Indian literary/mythological tradition) seems to appear on this page more than it does on its own page. Any ideas?
The Indian IVC sites, which seem to double every few years, and the prerequisites for which, as far as I can tell, consist of anything more than two pieces of rock in the desert, one fragment of a clay pot, and one corner of anything that could pass for a Harappan seal, are in a sorry state on Wikipedia. A case in point is Rakhigarhi, which was first excavated in 1963, but which has been in the news in India in the last couple of years, as all sorts of claims are being made for it (that it is the center of IVC, or soon to be crowned so; that it is the largest IVC site, at last count, blank blank times bigger than Mohenjo-daro; that is will soon be a UNESCO World Heritage Site, ....) I've tried to make it more grounded, but I'm not very hopeful that it will remain so. It appears that Indian archaeologists, almost always from the Archaeological Survey of India, a government body, (which in its post-1947 incarnation, has been very touchy about granting foreign researchers the permission to excavate in India or even observe Indian excavations) have been engaging in optimistic speculation in interviews reported by Indian media, or in their own non-peer-reviewed draft reports, or even in Indian journal publications (which claim to be peer-reviewed, but which read like high school newspapers). WP editors, then, give these reports the imprimatur of a Wikipedia line, or paragraph, or .... Pakistani sites, in contrast, are much more sober. This may be in part because IVC, when all is said and done, is preeminently a civilization of Pakistan (ie its major sites are there), and Pakistanis being secure in that don't feel the need for one-upmanship or in part because Pakistan's national religion, Islam, is of much later vintage, and reveling antiquity (ie one that predates Islam) is not a part of Pakistan's national ethos. Be that as it may, for Wikipedia, we need to ensure that dubious claims, supported by dubious sources, do not worm their way into Wikipedia IVC-related articles. Other IVC sites that IVC-page-watchers might want to keep an eye on are: Mitathal, Bhirrana, Banawali, Baror, Kalibangan, Surkotada and many others in List of Indus Valley Civilisation sites. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:10, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Glacier-fed is to be interpreted as "incising," ie. a stream that produces a valley by erosion. The tributaries of the rivers debouching (ie emerging in the plains) from the western Himalayas (whether of the Indus or the Ganges) are all incising, in contrast, for example, to Kosi and the eastern Himalayan rivers that have very small slopes and large alluvial fans on account of their decreased speed (causing Kosi to flood in the rainy season even today). That the Sarasvati is incising is found in RV 6.61.2 "6.61.2 She with her might, like one who digs for lotus-stems, hath burst with her strong waves the ridges of the hills." Few more evocative descriptions of an incising or degradational river exists in world literature. All western Himalayan rivers have "wide shallowly incised valleys" separated by plateau- or ridge-like landforms. However, in the Ghaggar-Hakra region there is an absence of large-scale incision. QED. If you don't buy what I am saying, you can read the authors' own words where they mention Possehl:
We note the sharp contrast between the degradational character of the tributaries of the Indus and the Ganges in the western Indo-Gangetic Plain and the lack of wide incision valleys along the Ghaggar-Hakra interfluve (Figs. 1 and 2A). Numerous speculations have advanced the idea that the Ghaggar-Hakra fluvial system, at times identified with the lost mythical river of Sarasvati (e.g., 4, 5, 7, 19), was a large glacier-fed Himalayan river. Potential sources for this river include the Yamuna River, the Sutlej River, or both rivers. However, the lack of large-scale incision on the interfluve demonstrates that large, glacier-fed rivers did not flow across the Ghaggar-Hakra region during the Holocene. (Where 4: Possehl GL (2002) The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective (Altamira Press, Lanham, MD). 5: Mughal MR (1997) Ancient Cholistan: Archaeology and Architecture (Ferozsons, Lahore). 7: Fuller DQ, Madella M (2002) in Indian Archaeology in Retrospect. Protohistory, eds Settar S, Korisettar R (Manohar Publishers, New Delhi), vol. II, pp 317–390); and 19: Radhakrishna BP, Merh SS (1999) Vedic Saraswati, Memoir (Geological Society of India, India), Vol. 42.
The authors, in their view, have countered the view of Possehl in his book. Here any additions should await what RegentsPark has suggested in the section above. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:59, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
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I have great respect for all of my fellow editors, and many of those I value the most are American. However, the stupidity of some IP users from the US, such as @50.47.1.43: is truly astonishing. That IP editor has made SEVEN successive edits to change from British/Indian spelling to American spelling despite being warned several times. Attention all editors: "Civilisation" is how the word is spelt in India. By museums and by the press. Please take the time to read WP:STRONGNAT AusLondonder (talk) 01:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Science is published in scientific journals and undergoes rigorous peer review. Many scientists, when they make landmark discoveries, also write articles in press or give press interviews, where the results are explained in layman terms. Such reports are quite valuable for us at Wikipedia. However, if scientists only give press interviews without publishing in peer-reviewed articles, we only have the scientists' word to go by, and it cannot be regarded as "science." Any scientific claims made in newspapers without prior publication in peer-reviewed journals must be regarded as WP:SPS. They can be reported with in-line attribution when non-contentious. If they are inconsistent with other established science, they should be deleted as being WP:SPS. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Kenoyer et al. (2013), A new approach to tracking connections between the Indus Valley and Mesopotamia: initial results of strontium isotope analyses from Harappa and Ur, Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 40, Issue 5, May 2013, Pages 2286–2297 (emphasis mine):
Fascinating, isn't it? And more and more complicated, also because of Coningham, Robin; Young, Ruth (2015), The Archaeology of South Asia: From the Indus to Asoka, c.6500 BCE–200 CE, Cambridge University Press, p.114:
How many waves of migration, displacement and admixture have there been?!? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:14, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
This article is very,very biased. Most scholars think it is a script — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.171.35.98 (talk) 01:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
This is a problematic claim. There's a ton of works that repeat it, and do so probably copying Wikipedia. I did find a 1996 article () which contains a sentence "The whole region might have had about five million people." so it may be the citation we need, however. --Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 03:02, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
References
According to "Scientists from IIT-Kharagpur and Archaeological Survey of India (ASI)," publishing in Nature, 25 may 2016, and cited in TOI, the Early Harappan culture is to be dated at 8,000-7,000 years ago. May be worth checking. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:57, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
First, hype set aside, I can't see any evidence for a civilization 8000 years ago in the Times of India article. It does say "While the earlier phases were represented by pastoral and early village farming communities,". But the main problem is that we should never use newspaper reports on archaology, among other things, to make statements of fact. We need to be able to source the original reports and normally to wait to see what the rest of the academic community has to say about it. Finding the original source was surprisingly difficult but it's here.Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization It does argue that " initiation of Harappan settlements (Hakra phase), is older than 8 ka BP." and that this phase "was primarily identified by ceramics such as mud appliqué ware, incised ware, and bi-chrome ware, much similar to the Pre-Harappan phase in Cholistan (Figs 1A and 3C 36) and was characterized by its subterranean dwelling, sacrificial and industrial pits" That phase it says was followed by the "Early Harappan phase shows settlement expansion, mud brick houses with advanced material culture including arrow heads, rings and bangles of copper...." It suggests the following phases: " Pre-Harappan Hakra phase (~9.5–8 ka BP), Early Harappan (~8–6.5 ka BP), Early mature Harappan (~6.5–5 ka BP) and mature Harappan (~5–2.8 ka BP". It's not until the mature Harappan phase commenced that you actually get what archaeologists call a civilization. Maybe "Kot Diji represents the phase leading up to Mature Harappan, with the citadel representing centralised authority and an increasingly urban quality of life." is one of the starting spots. Doug Weller talk 13:17, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
@talk :instead of pushing the Indus era back by 8000 years which may not be true according to the newspaper headline contradicts the original source,do you consider it plausible for the regionalization era to be considered as the beginning of the Indus valley Civilization instead of the present timeline of 3300BC as periodization based on phases has now clearly been abandoned in favour of the new era based periodization by leading archaeologists, and archaeologist ethics and other archaeologists considered experts on the indus valley Civilization because of an ever increasing amount of survey and excavation works have provided evidences of cutural sequences from a ceramic neolithic 6500 BC and earlier as it has been evidenced by both primary, secondary sources necessary to be considered as fact by Wikipedia.Blazearon21 (talk) 20:29, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Removed Americanizations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:100:DC9C:9C1B:C77D:DEA8:309A (talk) 21:32, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
As we know that the connection between Dravidian and Elam has been promoted by a tiny minority of scholars and this hypothesis has been criticized by the scholars of the field as "ad hoc" and unfounded. To this day, it remains "far from being universally accepted", and it is generally accepted that Dravidians are indigenous. See WP:FRINGE.
For such reasons I would remove whole Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Historical_context_and_linguistic_affiliation to the previous(version before this section) version and because its undue and selective information about Dravidian, most of the sources not even mentioning Indus Valley Civilisation. Nor I see any discussion on the talk page about having such a section on this article. Ping |Fowler, @RegentsPark: D4iNa4 (talk) 03:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. Deleting relevant info from reliabl sources sounds more like POV-pushing. NB": speaking about controversial, the R1a debate is notorious; 2006 (Sengupta et al.) is almost prehistory in this regard, especially given Underhill (2014). You should also have quoted the full sentences, to get the context:
What Sengupta et al. are arguing is that R1a came from the south; they imply that the Dravidians came from the south. The other reference you gave, Renfrew and Bahn, straight out contradicts this POV. Their concern is how Dravidian languages spread throughout India. But alas, it's worth mentioning that McAlpin may be incorrect. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Recent findings by IIT and ASI scientists have discovered that IVC is at least 8,000 years old and not 5500 years old as previously thought or misthought. They used a technique called optically stimulated luminescence to find that out. I think this article needs to be updated in accordance with the scientific study. Here are few sources
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.176.202.224 (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm removing this image for three reasons. Please address both reasons if you disagree. And please seek consensus before re-adding the images.
--regentspark (comment) 14:54, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Good news for IVC truth seekers, but bad news for some prejudiced editors.The DNA of IVC people(from Rakhigarhi) is being analysed and the results are about to come in near future which will be the major discovery of IVC till date, so all great prejudiced editors of IVC wiki be ready from now on to tackle ways to oppose it. Because the results will definitely not be a sweet hearing for you. It is going to establish the truths of IVC. 100 years worth research material is under excavation from the largest IVC site ever discovered till date i.e., Rakhigarhi
So, all truth seekers of IVC, don't worry, science and technology is our tool to establish the truths. No matter how much genuine and recent scientific material is available some prejudiced editors will not bother about it and will stay in the debunked theories of 20th century and always protect them from being edited. BodduLokesh (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
@Diannaa: could you take a look at these edits? Loos like they're copy-vio's of multiple sources. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Lazaridis et al. (2016)
I have to check the publication, but this sounds very interesting. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:25, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Still more:
This means that ANI, c.q. IVC (who else?) is closely related to the Yamna-culture c.q. Neolithic Iran, while the Indo-Iranians are less related! Which means, hypothetically, that ANI, c.q. the IVC, was genetically close to farmers from Iran. My bet for those upcoming IVC DNA sequences: closely related to Iranian neolithic farmers. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:50, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
My first concern is that Bhirrana and Mehrgarh are described as cultures in this article but not in their own.
Secondly, Rakhigarhi is described as "the site of a Pre-Indus Valley Civilisation settlement dating to as early as 4600 BCE." while Bhirrana "According to a December 2014 report by the Archaeological Survey of India, Bhirrana is the oldest Indus Valley Civilization site, dating back to 7570-6200 BCE". [1][2][3] It would be nice to see the original report(s). Note that Rakhigarhi is mentioned as maybe the largest IVC site. Doug Weller talk 12:19, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
References
This edit by User:Lorstaking changed Mehrgarh to Bhirrana on the basis of these sources.[1][2] The first is a self-published work by Srini Kalyanaraman, ie "S Kalyanaraman, a PhD in Public Administration, University of Philippines, anddirector of the privately-funded Sarasvati Research Centre in Chennai," and seems pretty clearly to fail WP:RS. The second is Mint (newspaper), dated January 2013. I don't like using media sources instead of official reports as they often get them wrong or even spin them, and of course this is relatively old now. Doug Weller talk 12:29, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
References
@Fowler&fowler: I am seeing you removed a map about genetics, I don't oppose that edit since this whole section was new to article. So what do you think about the whole Indus Valley Civilisation#Genetics section? To me it seems undue and irrelevant because none of the sources are talking about Indus Valley. Have a look at above section for previous discussion. Capitals00 (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
@Capitals00 and Joshua Jonathan: The cultural link by way of artifacts is old, mentioned in early IVC sources, in Dani et al, and Jarige et al, who excavated Mehrgarh. But the genetic links have not been improperly interpreted. For example, in the last paragraph of the genetics section you make an incomplete interpretation from the source, Coningham, Robin; Young, Ruth (2015), The Archaeology of South Asia: From the Indus to Asoka, c.6500 BCE–200 CE, Cambridge University Press, pp. 114–115, ISBN 978-1-316-41898-7, quoting only page 114. The entire quote on pages 114-115 is more cautious:
"Lukacs and Hemphill also compared the chronological and physical differences of skeletal remains between Neolithic and 'Chalcolithic' Mehrgarh (about 1,500 years. and half a kilometre apart) and those from Neolithic Mehrgarh and later `Chalcolithic Inamgaon (about 5,000 years and 1,440 kilometres apart) (1991: 4).They concluded their work by suggesting that "the direct lineal descendants of the Neolithic inhabitants of Mehrgarh are to be found to the south and to the east of Mehrgarh, in northwestern India and the western edge of the Deccan Plateau, rather than in post-Neolithic Baluchistan" (Lukacs and Hemphill 1991: .4). They also concluded that there were greater similarities between the skeletons of Timargarha in the north-west (Iron Age), populations of Central Asia, and the Neolithic Mehrgarh population than between Neolithic and Chalcolithic Mehrgarh (Lukacs and Hemphill 1991: 113; Lukacs 1983: 392) (page 114)"
"This study demonstrates that studying human skeletal remains is critical as it raises many interesting questions about our understanding of population continuity. It may be that increased DNA analysis will help further understand links between different groups but this is a costly process and DNA does not always survive well. Teeth on the other hand are generally quite robust in archaeological contexts, and carry a number of genetically determined traits that can be incredibly useful in exploring genetic movement. In conclusion, although this dental analysis may suggest firm links between the north-west of South Asia and the Deccan, there is as yet no corresponding artefactual evidence – leaving this dental study as an intriguing data set. (page 115)"
As you will see here, the authors are really suggesting that the teeth data, let along the genetic interpretation of the data, is an intriguing data set, but not yet vetted by artefactual evidence. They are hardly suggesting that it forms a significant view of the people of IVC. I have notice many other such misinterpretations. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:52, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
The Wiki-article is about the discontinuity in the north-west South Asia, as observed by Lukacs and Hemphill. And as ypou noticed yourself, "The cultural link by way of artifacts is old, mentioned in early IVC sources." So, your objection is interesting and relevant, but does not apply the way you intended. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:57, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
@Joshua Jonathan, Capitals00, and RegentsPark: Joshua Jonathan, You have also misinterpreted the results of Underhill et al (2015), which guardedly states on page 128, that (my italics):
"It may have been in this cultural context that hg R1a-Z282 diversified in Central and Eastern Europe. The corresponding diversification in the Middle East and South Asia is more obscure. However, early urbanization within the Indus Valley also occurred at this time and the geographic distribution of R1a-M780 (Figure 3d) may reflect this."
and which explicity states in its conclusion on page 130 (my italics):
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417 occurred B5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence.54,60 However, our data do not enable us to directly ascribe the patterns of R1a geographic spread to specific prehistoric cultures or more recent demographic events. Highthroughput sequencing studies of more R1a lineages will lead to further insight into the structure of the underlying tree, and ancient DNA specimens will help adjudicate the molecular clock calibration. Together these advancements will yield more refined inferences about pre-historic dispersals of peoples, their material cultures, and languages."
That is a far cry from what you have written, which is:
"recent research by Underhill (2014/2015) on the spread of haplogroup R1a. Underhill et al. (2014/2015) conclude that R1a1a1, the most frequent subclade of R1a, split into Z282 (Europe) and Z93 (Asia) at circe 5,800 before present[149] in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey. It may have spread with "demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages," going to India and spreading further with the early urbanization of the Indus Valley Civilisation."
In other words, they are saying that they don't have any way as yet of calibrating the molecular clock assumptions either with fossil evidence or ancient human DNA. Yours is a misinterpretation of their conclusion, imputing certainty to results that are highly uncertain and conjectural. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:03, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
@Joshua Jonathan, Capitals00, and RegentsPark: Finally, the Romero results are also incompletely stated. First of all, as many Indian physicians know, most people in India are lactose intolerant. In fact, the newsletter of the University of Chicago, where she (Romero) was a post-doc at the time of the publication of the letter, says clearly (quoting her): "Another surprising fact was turned up by the researchers when they measure just how common the lactose tolerance mutation was among Indian populations. The mutation was found in less than 1 out of 5 individuals tested, a figure far lower than anticipated by many of the project’s Indian advisors. 'When I became interested in this project, everybody said "Everyone in India drinks milk,” ' Gallego Romero said. “But when we got the results, we said, ‘No, only 18 percent of people in India are digesting milk, nobody else is.'” In other words, we are talking about a trait present in 18% of Indians in the context of the spread of neolithic cultures from the Iranian plateau to Balochistan. Romero's actual paper concludes with,
"Taken together, our results indicate that the -13910*T allele is responsible for the substantial proportion of lactase persistence in the country. Furthermore, haplotype analyses indicate that the -13910*T allele in India is identical by descent to that found in Europe and western Asia, whereas examination of the pattern of haplotype block structure in the context of the archaeological history of herding across this intercontinental region suggests that the -13910*T allele was introduced to India from the west. However, within India, the lactase persistence phenotype has had a more structured adaptive history, with higher frequencies clustered in those groups that traditionally practice a dairying economy. Lactase persistence remains one of, if not, the best examples of coevolution between cultural and biological innovations, and the historical and socioeconomic complexity of India provides a unique opportunity for exploring the processes that generate human diversity."
This is not an independent genetic result that supports an archaeological fact (ie of spread of neolithic cultures), but rather one that uses the well-established spread of neolithic cultures to posit a time frame for the spread of the lactose tolerance allele in the Indian population. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:54, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
PS In other word, I am not convinced that if three examples that I picked out of the hat are incorrectly or incompletely summarized from the source material, that this problem does not plague the entire section. I believe this section needs to be removed in its entirety, until such time its accuracy can be vetted on the this talk page. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm the camp that is the polar opposite of the "Out of India" theory. I don't have any issues with outside trapping of Indian civilization. After all, we all, including all Indians, left Africa only about 60 to 70 K years ago. One solution could be to change the Mehrgarh section title to "Neolithic origins and influences." There, remove the garbage about Bhirrana, and introduce one paragraph, which is a highly compressed summary of your section, without actual quotes. I could live with that. It would stand as supplementary genetic data and analysis. But it can't be as extensive as the Genetics section itself. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:02, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Those weren't improvements, they were errors based on newspaper reports of unpublished research. I've fixed it. The report is at Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization byAnindya Sarkar, Arati Deshpande Mukherjee, M. K. Bera, B. Das, Navin Juyal, P. Morthekai, R. D. Deshpande, V. S. Shinde & L. S. Rao. It does say "Within the experimental errors both the stratigraphically controlled new ages agree with the time scale based on archaeological evidences (as well as 14C ages) proposed by earlier workers8,17,18,34; Fig. 3C,D) and suggest that the Bhirrana settlements are the oldest of known sites in the Ghaggar-Hakra tract" and that "The climate reconstruction at Bhirrana demonstrates that some of the Harappan settlements in the Ghaggar-Hakra valley are the oldest in India and probably developed at least by the ninth millennium BP over a vast tract of arid/semi-arid regions of NW India and Pakistan." It also says "The recent excavations at Rakhigarhi suggest hitherto unknown largest Harappan settlement in India preserving all the cultural levels including the Hakra phase" but this is too vague to use. Doug Weller talk 18:59, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
See Talk:Periodisation of the Indus Valley Civilisation. The article is about the Indus Valley tradition, not just the IVC, and I've suggested it be called that. Doug Weller talk 19:01, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa (talk) 18:22, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Indus Valley Civilisation → Indus Valley tradition – I originally started a rename proposal at Talk:Periodisation of the Indus Valley Civilisation but another poster suggested that the periodisiation article be merged to this one, and this one should be renamed. That makes much more sense as the content of this article is more than just the IVC, in fact it encompasses the Indus Valley tradition. As I said there, the Indus Valley tradition includes "Indus Valley CivilizatioN", "Harrapan Civilization" - ie the urban phases of the Indus Valley tradition, as well as the cultural phases that led up to the urban phase. As another author wrote, the IV tradition "may be thought of as the milieu of cultural/technological adaptations in the Greater Indus region within which urbanized civilization eventually emerged and existed" Hopefully this might be an aid in cutting down on some of the pov editing, the "my civilization is older than yours" editors. This is a fairly standard name, see for instance Google scholar. Doug Weller talk 12:37, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.@Fowler&fowler: That's a misunderstanding. We would still call the IVC the IVC. It's part of the Indus Valley tradition. That wouldn't change. This would simply delineate more clearly the phases of the tradition, and not lump them all incorrectly IMHO into the IVC. Doug Weller talk 15:26, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) User:Fowler&fowler]] Before our edit conflict I wrote "**Of course IVC shows up more, it's a larger and more important period. Right now the article has for instance Mehrgarh as part of the IVC. Ok, maybe I need to look to see how JSTOR etc define the IVC, and JStor isn't the best source of archaeology articles, most of them doing seem to be on JSTOR as I've found to my dismay. Because of that I'd stick to GScholar unless there's something comparable to JSTOR that includes the archaeology journals. If most of the archaeology sources define IVC as including Mehrgarh etc, then I'm wrong. In that case we mustn't let our articles make the assumption/claim that the earliest IVC date marks the oldest civilization, because that's not how archaeologists do it. " Yes to your first question. Your suggestion might work very well and I'd definitely back it. Doug Weller talk 17:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
What do people think about the source and the claim? Doug Weller talk 19:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Another interesting genetical study: Broushaki et al. (2016), Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent, Science, 14 Jul 2016. See Eurones Blog and anthrogenica.com for discussions. Quotes:
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:09, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
This: "Proto-Munda (or Para-Munda) and a "lost phylum" (perhaps related or ancestral to the Nihali language)[150] have been proposed as other candidates for the language of the IVC. Michael Witzel suggests an underlying, prefixing language that is similar to Austroasiatic, notably Khasi; he argues that the Rigveda shows signs of this hypothetical Harappan influence in the earliest historic level, and Dravidian only in later levels, suggesting that speakers of Austroasiatic were the original inhabitants of Punjab and that the Indo-Aryans encountered speakers of Dravidian only in later times.[151]"
I don't intend to get involved, but this seems very unlikely from what little I've read elsewhere - I gather that the latest thinking on Austroasiatic is that it formed only 4000 years ago, in the middle-Mekong valley. The authority is a certain Professor Sidwell. Anyway, if anyone's interested, I leave it to them.PiCo (talk) 00:50, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Two points. First, it seems more sensible to refer to these as cubes. Second, despite the article currently saying that these were decimal, in fact they appear to have been mainly made in a binary sequence 1, 2, 4 ... 16 etc - albeit with x10 and x100 steps above that. (https://sizes.com/units/harappan_weights.htm and https://www.harappa.com/slide/weights-harappa). Thoughts? Snori (talk) 21:05, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
The Haplogroup L-M20 map corresponds to the Indus Valley Civilisation map. This may indicate that L-M20 migrated to other parts of South Asia, including along the Arabian Sea coast from Indus Valley.
RedPlanet321 (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Which means that Poznik etal. (2016) lends credibility to the association of L-M20 with the IVC? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
This edit changed
Into
References
Bhirrana, and this source, are also being discussed now at Talk:Periodisation of the Indus Valley Civilisation#Sarkar et al. (2016); see that thread for an extensive analysis of this source. By the way, you could have added a link to the article in question, as I did before; it looks like you're WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, but to push a specific point of view. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:46, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Could someone take a look at Rakhigarhi Indus Valley Civilisation Museum and whether it is a candidate for AfD? I have a feeling that it doesn't really exist yet. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:40, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: what do you know about Hakra ware? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:09, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
The present article gives a lot of information on the material and immaterial culture of the IVC, but very little information on the mechanisms of change, except for the link with the monsoons. Yet, those mechanisms of change, and of waxing and waning interregional interactions, seem to be an important topic in the literature. See, for example, Shaffer and Lichtenstein, who argue that the Mature Harappan was a cultural system which was a fusion of the Bagor, Hakra, and Kot Diji ethnic groups of the Ghaggar-Hakra valley, creating a new ethnic group which spread rapidly. (Possehl 2002, p.50) I've moved this piece of info to the beginning of the "Integration - Mature Harappan" section, where it belongs. It seems to me that this is crucial information, which might receive more emphasis, possibly even in the lead. And I'd like to have more info on these 'mechanisms of change', since they provide a deeper insight into this civilisation, and move the emphasis a little bit from the obvious 'material highlights' to the, in my opinion, even more impressing systemic mechanisms, of which this civilisation was a temporary outcome. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:50, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
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106.76.243.76 (talk) 15:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
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I would like to edit this because i have a reliable source 216.56.68.178 (talk) 19:58, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
I am very interested to learn how the Ancient Egyptian and Indus Valley civilisation coincided or interacted. However, I disagree with the displacement of Ancient Egypt out of Africa and to the 'East'. Ancient Egypt was an African civilisation, and the description of it as 'eastern' is misleading, but understandable considering the age of the quote. Also, Wright's opinion is stated as if it was fact. Also, he seems to be quoting Childe, from 1950? That's a long time ago. I would say that source is a little outdated. Wright 2010 (citing Childe in 1950):Quote: "The Indus civilisation is one of three in the 'Ancient East' that, along with Mesopotamia and Pharonic Egypt, was a cradle of early civilisation in the Old World (Childe 1950).MrSativa (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
References
may be legitimately spelled with either -ize or -ise throughout the English-speaking world (except in America, where -ize is always used)...Cambridge University Press and others prefer -ise
End copied text. Doug Weller talk 17:06, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Indian English, however, uses -ise virtually exclusively, and since Ind/Pak are almost certainly going to provide a disproportionate number of readers of this article, I'd think one would need a very convincing argument to change it to American spelling. Whatever Wikipedia's article may say, Oxford Spelling is virtually dead in BrEng outside the OED itself—even Oxford University itself has abandoned it. ‑ Iridescent 17:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I inadvertently messed up a link and associated text in the Bibliography section. I created an article on Naida Kirkpatrick, an author who was cited for her book on Indus Valley. I was attempting to link her name in this bibliography to her Wikipedia page. I'm not sure what I did wrong. I tried to fix it but it's still not correct.
I am hoping someone with more experience can correct the bibliography citation on this page, and link Naida Kirkpatrick's name to her Wikipedia page: Naida_Kirkpatrick
Thank you and I apologize for the inconvenience. Tjhouse23 (talk) 07:09, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler:, Can you tell us what the problems were that necessitated this revert ? I am also not sure which "original version" has been reinstated here. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:34, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
An edit by BodduLokesh got reverted this morning. The edit wasn't great, but I believe that it was on the right track. In the lead that got reverted by Fowler&fowler, I had put Indus-Sarasvati civilisation along with reliable sources. The importance of the Sarasvati river to the Harappan civilisation is acknowledge by contemporary scholars, e.g., Jane McIntosh.[1] The Left-Right ideological divide among the Indian scholars has generally clouded the issue, but the evidence is clear that the Sarasvati river was a major component of the civilisation. We should not underplay this issue.
References
- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:10, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Being a redirect does not qualify for inclusion in the lead or for that matter in the rest of the article. The lead is very carefully worded. It does not say that the civilization is called the Indus-Ghaggar-Hakra civilization, only that many sites are found along the Indus and the seasonal Ghaggar-Hakra river, which once coursed through the region, that is, in greater volume. (Aside: That much the satellite imagery and coring data establishes. The dating of that ancient river and tectonic shift etc resulting in the switch across the continental divide, is not firmly of the Vedic- or Post-Vedic Age. The latest PNAS article casts doubt on even the fact of the full river. Say its authors,
"Contrary to earlier assumptions that a large glacier-fed Himalayan river, identified by some with the mythical Sarasvati, watered the Harappan heartland on the interfluve between the Indus and Ganges basins, we show that only monsoonal-fed rivers were active there during the Holocene. As the monsoon weakened, monsoonal rivers gradually dried or became seasonal, affecting habitability along their courses." See "Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization" by Liviu Giosan et al, Proc. National Academy of Sciences USA, 2012)
Articles are not named according to their ancient names, besides the Harappan language remains undeciphered. The drying up of the larger Ghaggar Hakra river system, which some have identified with the river Saraswati of the Rig Veda, though without reliable evidence (as the PNAS article suggests), can be mentioned in the section on the decline of IVC (along with climate change etc), but it does not belong to the lead. There is an ideological history behind the use of the term Saraswati in things Harappan. It is a relatively recent term, dating back to the late 1980s, invented by some archaeologists of the Archaeological Survey of India, who in their retirement were to profess Hindu nationalist sympathies, who were also finding, some say manufacturing, a vast number of "sites," on the Indian side of the India Pakistan border. It is thus seen an attempt both to paint the Indus civilization in Aryan colors, and to claim it for the Republic of India. Other tertiary sources such as Encyclopaedia Britannica do not mention it, nor do they accept the exaggerated number of IVC "sites" in India (see here). The lead is sourced to Rita Wright's Ancient Indus, (Cambridge University Press, 2009), a book which uses the term "Ghaggar Hakra river" for the modern remnants of a putative larger ancient river system. The map in the lead, besides, shows only the Ghagggar-Hakra seasonal river, as does the Britannica map, which doesn't name it, as does the Jane McIntosh map, which calls it only Ghaggar. Here are a few more scholarly archaeology books which use Ghaggar Hakra in this manner, as a pivot for the geographical extent (described in present-day terminology) of the ancient civilization, and do not use Saraswati, which, obviously, is not the name of a modern river.
I am traveling and without sources. This is the best I can do at this time. Again, the Saraswati does not belong to the lead. For the drive-bys who periodically insert it in the lead, I suggest they read WP:Lead fixation. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:43, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler: Thanks for the detailed response in the midst of your travel. I should have known that we would fall right into the Left-Right divide. The divide is real. For the right-wingers, the river is necessarily "Sarasvati." For the left-wingers it is necessarily "Ghagghar-Hakra." I don't subscribe to either ideology.
I can't access Rita P. Wright's book online, but I would be interested to know what she says about the "Sarasvati" river when you get a chance to check. Here is what I know. Gregory Possehl's "lead" says this:
"In this section, the cultural/ natural regions of the Indus Civilization, called Domains, are presented, along with the nature and history of the two principal rivers: the Indus and Sarasvati. Climatic change is discussed, and, finally, a short review of Indus Civilization settlement patterns and subsistence regimes is offered."[1]
The section on Sarasvati begins with
"There is a river in the Great Indian Desert that is mostly dry. Today it is generally called Ghaggar in India and Hakra in Pakistan. In ancient times it was called Sarasvati and appears in the Rgveda in many places. It was a holy river, the “foremost of rivers,” in the Vedas:...Linguistic, archaeological, and historical data show that the Sarasvati of the Vedas is the modern Ghaggar or Hakra."
Sudheshna Guha's review article has this footnote (29):
"Jonathan Mark Kenoyer and Gregory Possehl also accept this geography, believing that the ‘archaeological data supports the textual information that proclaims the ancient Sarasvati as a great river withmany populous settlements along its course’ (Kenoyer 1997: 52)[2], and that ‘the Sarasvati began to dry up at the beginning of the second millennium, but that seems to have taken a lot of time’ (Possehl 2002: 36)[3].They have not as yet speculated on its exact course from the source to mouth.[4]
Of the citations you have provided that I am able to access online,
So, as per the sources, I don't see any need to exclude the mention of "Sarasvati." - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:45, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
(Adding note:) I am not pushing for Indus-Sarasvati civilisation. I believe the term was there earlier when I edited it last time. After researching, I added Upinder Singh as a reliable citation. I agree that it is only the Indigenous Aryanists that push this term, and it is best to avoid it. However, I see no problem with mentioning the "Sarasvati river" as a key component of the civilisation. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:35, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
References
{{citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(help)Can you give us a few examples of what you consider the "Left" POV on this page? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Kautilya3, I'm afraid you might be claiming certainty where there is little or none. Irfan Habib is not an archeologist or historian of Bronze Age India. He has written a series on Indian history and he's been involved in debates. But that is a turf battle in Indian academia. Why do you keep bringing him up, and keep talking of the Left-Right divide, as if all sources are equal on WP? The best known researchers of IVC are not in India, so how does it matter what the Indians think? Sarasvati has by no means been positively identified, though there are many theories. The Rg Vedic Saraswati is a mighty river, rising in the Himalayas, or perhaps it is the Helmand river in Afghanistan, or perhaps the river that goes underground and reappears in Allahabad from below, or perhaps is a mighty river in the sky. Who has "identified" it with the Ghaggar and how? Auriel Stein had his theory, but he and others in the 1930s had many theories that would make them blush were they around today. The Sarasvati's cognate occurs in the Avestan and there is history of Indo-Iranian seven rivers (Hapta Hendu). It doesn't matter how many times Possehl (2002) or Kenoyer (1998) mention "Saraswati" or "Sarasvati." Their knowledge of geophysics is rudimentary (I know this with some certainty about one of them.) They have assumed that the researches of some Indian government geologists, itself flawed and of poor quality, had "identified" a the bed of a major extinct river flowing from the Himalayas westwards.
But the work of Giosan et al (a major 15 author study from many continents) has rendered all the old stuff null and void. There is simply no one big river, but rather many monsoon fed rivers that watered the general area in which IVC sites have been found in western India and eastern Pakistan, rivers which gradually became seasonal with considerably lessened discharge. It is only recently begun to find its way into research monographs and textbooks. See, for example, Brooke, John L. (2014), Climate Change and the Course of Global History: A Rough Journey, Cambridge University Press, p. 296, ISBN 978-0-521-87164-8, which states the current consensus and which even mentions Possehl in the footnotes (also reproduced below with urls):
Secondly, the problem of mentioning it in the lead is not one of left or right, but of WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. For determining what is undue and what is not, WP suggests looking at review articles, other tertiary sources. These, especially in archaeology, hardly ever mention Sarasvati or Saraswati, whether they mention Ghaggar or Hakra. If the consensus is not to mention Ghaggar Hakra in the lead, so be it; but Saraswati is now dead in IVC, the death blow having been delivered by the paper Giosan et al, a paragraph from which I quoted in my very first post in this thread. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Indian languages, especially Sanskrit and other Indo-Aryan languages, do not distinguish between "v" and "w" phonetically. There is only one letter in the Devanagari script for both these English letters. So, I'm a little mystified why the river on Wikipedia is spelled Sarasvati river but the goddess personifying the river is called Saraswati. If you examine the edit history of Sarasvati river you will see that it started out as "Saraswati river," but a few edits later an IP changed to spelling without explanation. I'm posting here because the river (ie the river of Indian literary/mythological tradition) seems to appear on this page more than it does on its own page. Any ideas?
The Indian IVC sites, which seem to double every few years, and the prerequisites for which, as far as I can tell, consist of anything more than two pieces of rock in the desert, one fragment of a clay pot, and one corner of anything that could pass for a Harappan seal, are in a sorry state on Wikipedia. A case in point is Rakhigarhi, which was first excavated in 1963, but which has been in the news in India in the last couple of years, as all sorts of claims are being made for it (that it is the center of IVC, or soon to be crowned so; that it is the largest IVC site, at last count, blank blank times bigger than Mohenjo-daro; that is will soon be a UNESCO World Heritage Site, ....) I've tried to make it more grounded, but I'm not very hopeful that it will remain so. It appears that Indian archaeologists, almost always from the Archaeological Survey of India, a government body, (which in its post-1947 incarnation, has been very touchy about granting foreign researchers the permission to excavate in India or even observe Indian excavations) have been engaging in optimistic speculation in interviews reported by Indian media, or in their own non-peer-reviewed draft reports, or even in Indian journal publications (which claim to be peer-reviewed, but which read like high school newspapers). WP editors, then, give these reports the imprimatur of a Wikipedia line, or paragraph, or .... Pakistani sites, in contrast, are much more sober. This may be in part because IVC, when all is said and done, is preeminently a civilization of Pakistan (ie its major sites are there), and Pakistanis being secure in that don't feel the need for one-upmanship or in part because Pakistan's national religion, Islam, is of much later vintage, and reveling antiquity (ie one that predates Islam) is not a part of Pakistan's national ethos. Be that as it may, for Wikipedia, we need to ensure that dubious claims, supported by dubious sources, do not worm their way into Wikipedia IVC-related articles. Other IVC sites that IVC-page-watchers might want to keep an eye on are: Mitathal, Bhirrana, Banawali, Baror, Kalibangan, Surkotada and many others in List of Indus Valley Civilisation sites. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:10, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Glacier-fed is to be interpreted as "incising," ie. a stream that produces a valley by erosion. The tributaries of the rivers debouching (ie emerging in the plains) from the western Himalayas (whether of the Indus or the Ganges) are all incising, in contrast, for example, to Kosi and the eastern Himalayan rivers that have very small slopes and large alluvial fans on account of their decreased speed (causing Kosi to flood in the rainy season even today). That the Sarasvati is incising is found in RV 6.61.2 "6.61.2 She with her might, like one who digs for lotus-stems, hath burst with her strong waves the ridges of the hills." Few more evocative descriptions of an incising or degradational river exists in world literature. All western Himalayan rivers have "wide shallowly incised valleys" separated by plateau- or ridge-like landforms. However, in the Ghaggar-Hakra region there is an absence of large-scale incision. QED. If you don't buy what I am saying, you can read the authors' own words where they mention Possehl:
We note the sharp contrast between the degradational character of the tributaries of the Indus and the Ganges in the western Indo-Gangetic Plain and the lack of wide incision valleys along the Ghaggar-Hakra interfluve (Figs. 1 and 2A). Numerous speculations have advanced the idea that the Ghaggar-Hakra fluvial system, at times identified with the lost mythical river of Sarasvati (e.g., 4, 5, 7, 19), was a large glacier-fed Himalayan river. Potential sources for this river include the Yamuna River, the Sutlej River, or both rivers. However, the lack of large-scale incision on the interfluve demonstrates that large, glacier-fed rivers did not flow across the Ghaggar-Hakra region during the Holocene. (Where 4: Possehl GL (2002) The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective (Altamira Press, Lanham, MD). 5: Mughal MR (1997) Ancient Cholistan: Archaeology and Architecture (Ferozsons, Lahore). 7: Fuller DQ, Madella M (2002) in Indian Archaeology in Retrospect. Protohistory, eds Settar S, Korisettar R (Manohar Publishers, New Delhi), vol. II, pp 317–390); and 19: Radhakrishna BP, Merh SS (1999) Vedic Saraswati, Memoir (Geological Society of India, India), Vol. 42.
The authors, in their view, have countered the view of Possehl in his book. Here any additions should await what RegentsPark has suggested in the section above. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:59, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 17:03, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I have great respect for all of my fellow editors, and many of those I value the most are American. However, the stupidity of some IP users from the US, such as @50.47.1.43: is truly astonishing. That IP editor has made SEVEN successive edits to change from British/Indian spelling to American spelling despite being warned several times. Attention all editors: "Civilisation" is how the word is spelt in India. By museums and by the press. Please take the time to read WP:STRONGNAT AusLondonder (talk) 01:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Science is published in scientific journals and undergoes rigorous peer review. Many scientists, when they make landmark discoveries, also write articles in press or give press interviews, where the results are explained in layman terms. Such reports are quite valuable for us at Wikipedia. However, if scientists only give press interviews without publishing in peer-reviewed articles, we only have the scientists' word to go by, and it cannot be regarded as "science." Any scientific claims made in newspapers without prior publication in peer-reviewed journals must be regarded as WP:SPS. They can be reported with in-line attribution when non-contentious. If they are inconsistent with other established science, they should be deleted as being WP:SPS. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Kenoyer et al. (2013), A new approach to tracking connections between the Indus Valley and Mesopotamia: initial results of strontium isotope analyses from Harappa and Ur, Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 40, Issue 5, May 2013, Pages 2286–2297 (emphasis mine):
Fascinating, isn't it? And more and more complicated, also because of Coningham, Robin; Young, Ruth (2015), The Archaeology of South Asia: From the Indus to Asoka, c.6500 BCE–200 CE, Cambridge University Press, p.114:
How many waves of migration, displacement and admixture have there been?!? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:14, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
This article is very,very biased. Most scholars think it is a script — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.171.35.98 (talk) 01:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
This is a problematic claim. There's a ton of works that repeat it, and do so probably copying Wikipedia. I did find a 1996 article () which contains a sentence "The whole region might have had about five million people." so it may be the citation we need, however. --Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 03:02, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
References
According to "Scientists from IIT-Kharagpur and Archaeological Survey of India (ASI)," publishing in Nature, 25 may 2016, and cited in TOI, the Early Harappan culture is to be dated at 8,000-7,000 years ago. May be worth checking. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:57, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
First, hype set aside, I can't see any evidence for a civilization 8000 years ago in the Times of India article. It does say "While the earlier phases were represented by pastoral and early village farming communities,". But the main problem is that we should never use newspaper reports on archaology, among other things, to make statements of fact. We need to be able to source the original reports and normally to wait to see what the rest of the academic community has to say about it. Finding the original source was surprisingly difficult but it's here.Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization It does argue that " initiation of Harappan settlements (Hakra phase), is older than 8 ka BP." and that this phase "was primarily identified by ceramics such as mud appliqué ware, incised ware, and bi-chrome ware, much similar to the Pre-Harappan phase in Cholistan (Figs 1A and 3C 36) and was characterized by its subterranean dwelling, sacrificial and industrial pits" That phase it says was followed by the "Early Harappan phase shows settlement expansion, mud brick houses with advanced material culture including arrow heads, rings and bangles of copper...." It suggests the following phases: " Pre-Harappan Hakra phase (~9.5–8 ka BP), Early Harappan (~8–6.5 ka BP), Early mature Harappan (~6.5–5 ka BP) and mature Harappan (~5–2.8 ka BP". It's not until the mature Harappan phase commenced that you actually get what archaeologists call a civilization. Maybe "Kot Diji represents the phase leading up to Mature Harappan, with the citadel representing centralised authority and an increasingly urban quality of life." is one of the starting spots. Doug Weller talk 13:17, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
@talk :instead of pushing the Indus era back by 8000 years which may not be true according to the newspaper headline contradicts the original source,do you consider it plausible for the regionalization era to be considered as the beginning of the Indus valley Civilization instead of the present timeline of 3300BC as periodization based on phases has now clearly been abandoned in favour of the new era based periodization by leading archaeologists, and archaeologist ethics and other archaeologists considered experts on the indus valley Civilization because of an ever increasing amount of survey and excavation works have provided evidences of cutural sequences from a ceramic neolithic 6500 BC and earlier as it has been evidenced by both primary, secondary sources necessary to be considered as fact by Wikipedia.Blazearon21 (talk) 20:29, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Removed Americanizations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:100:DC9C:9C1B:C77D:DEA8:309A (talk) 21:32, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
As we know that the connection between Dravidian and Elam has been promoted by a tiny minority of scholars and this hypothesis has been criticized by the scholars of the field as "ad hoc" and unfounded. To this day, it remains "far from being universally accepted", and it is generally accepted that Dravidians are indigenous. See WP:FRINGE.
For such reasons I would remove whole Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Historical_context_and_linguistic_affiliation to the previous(version before this section) version and because its undue and selective information about Dravidian, most of the sources not even mentioning Indus Valley Civilisation. Nor I see any discussion on the talk page about having such a section on this article. Ping |Fowler, @RegentsPark: D4iNa4 (talk) 03:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. Deleting relevant info from reliabl sources sounds more like POV-pushing. NB": speaking about controversial, the R1a debate is notorious; 2006 (Sengupta et al.) is almost prehistory in this regard, especially given Underhill (2014). You should also have quoted the full sentences, to get the context:
What Sengupta et al. are arguing is that R1a came from the south; they imply that the Dravidians came from the south. The other reference you gave, Renfrew and Bahn, straight out contradicts this POV. Their concern is how Dravidian languages spread throughout India. But alas, it's worth mentioning that McAlpin may be incorrect. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Recent findings by IIT and ASI scientists have discovered that IVC is at least 8,000 years old and not 5500 years old as previously thought or misthought. They used a technique called optically stimulated luminescence to find that out. I think this article needs to be updated in accordance with the scientific study. Here are few sources
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.176.202.224 (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm removing this image for three reasons. Please address both reasons if you disagree. And please seek consensus before re-adding the images.
--regentspark (comment) 14:54, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Good news for IVC truth seekers, but bad news for some prejudiced editors.The DNA of IVC people(from Rakhigarhi) is being analysed and the results are about to come in near future which will be the major discovery of IVC till date, so all great prejudiced editors of IVC wiki be ready from now on to tackle ways to oppose it. Because the results will definitely not be a sweet hearing for you. It is going to establish the truths of IVC. 100 years worth research material is under excavation from the largest IVC site ever discovered till date i.e., Rakhigarhi
So, all truth seekers of IVC, don't worry, science and technology is our tool to establish the truths. No matter how much genuine and recent scientific material is available some prejudiced editors will not bother about it and will stay in the debunked theories of 20th century and always protect them from being edited. BodduLokesh (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
@Diannaa: could you take a look at these edits? Loos like they're copy-vio's of multiple sources. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Lazaridis et al. (2016)
I have to check the publication, but this sounds very interesting. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:25, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Still more:
This means that ANI, c.q. IVC (who else?) is closely related to the Yamna-culture c.q. Neolithic Iran, while the Indo-Iranians are less related! Which means, hypothetically, that ANI, c.q. the IVC, was genetically close to farmers from Iran. My bet for those upcoming IVC DNA sequences: closely related to Iranian neolithic farmers. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:50, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
My first concern is that Bhirrana and Mehrgarh are described as cultures in this article but not in their own.
Secondly, Rakhigarhi is described as "the site of a Pre-Indus Valley Civilisation settlement dating to as early as 4600 BCE." while Bhirrana "According to a December 2014 report by the Archaeological Survey of India, Bhirrana is the oldest Indus Valley Civilization site, dating back to 7570-6200 BCE". [1][2][3] It would be nice to see the original report(s). Note that Rakhigarhi is mentioned as maybe the largest IVC site. Doug Weller talk 12:19, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
References
This edit by User:Lorstaking changed Mehrgarh to Bhirrana on the basis of these sources.[1][2] The first is a self-published work by Srini Kalyanaraman, ie "S Kalyanaraman, a PhD in Public Administration, University of Philippines, anddirector of the privately-funded Sarasvati Research Centre in Chennai," and seems pretty clearly to fail WP:RS. The second is Mint (newspaper), dated January 2013. I don't like using media sources instead of official reports as they often get them wrong or even spin them, and of course this is relatively old now. Doug Weller talk 12:29, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
References
@Fowler&fowler: I am seeing you removed a map about genetics, I don't oppose that edit since this whole section was new to article. So what do you think about the whole Indus Valley Civilisation#Genetics section? To me it seems undue and irrelevant because none of the sources are talking about Indus Valley. Have a look at above section for previous discussion. Capitals00 (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
@Capitals00 and Joshua Jonathan: The cultural link by way of artifacts is old, mentioned in early IVC sources, in Dani et al, and Jarige et al, who excavated Mehrgarh. But the genetic links have not been improperly interpreted. For example, in the last paragraph of the genetics section you make an incomplete interpretation from the source, Coningham, Robin; Young, Ruth (2015), The Archaeology of South Asia: From the Indus to Asoka, c.6500 BCE–200 CE, Cambridge University Press, pp. 114–115, ISBN 978-1-316-41898-7, quoting only page 114. The entire quote on pages 114-115 is more cautious:
"Lukacs and Hemphill also compared the chronological and physical differences of skeletal remains between Neolithic and 'Chalcolithic' Mehrgarh (about 1,500 years. and half a kilometre apart) and those from Neolithic Mehrgarh and later `Chalcolithic Inamgaon (about 5,000 years and 1,440 kilometres apart) (1991: 4).They concluded their work by suggesting that "the direct lineal descendants of the Neolithic inhabitants of Mehrgarh are to be found to the south and to the east of Mehrgarh, in northwestern India and the western edge of the Deccan Plateau, rather than in post-Neolithic Baluchistan" (Lukacs and Hemphill 1991: .4). They also concluded that there were greater similarities between the skeletons of Timargarha in the north-west (Iron Age), populations of Central Asia, and the Neolithic Mehrgarh population than between Neolithic and Chalcolithic Mehrgarh (Lukacs and Hemphill 1991: 113; Lukacs 1983: 392) (page 114)"
"This study demonstrates that studying human skeletal remains is critical as it raises many interesting questions about our understanding of population continuity. It may be that increased DNA analysis will help further understand links between different groups but this is a costly process and DNA does not always survive well. Teeth on the other hand are generally quite robust in archaeological contexts, and carry a number of genetically determined traits that can be incredibly useful in exploring genetic movement. In conclusion, although this dental analysis may suggest firm links between the north-west of South Asia and the Deccan, there is as yet no corresponding artefactual evidence – leaving this dental study as an intriguing data set. (page 115)"
As you will see here, the authors are really suggesting that the teeth data, let along the genetic interpretation of the data, is an intriguing data set, but not yet vetted by artefactual evidence. They are hardly suggesting that it forms a significant view of the people of IVC. I have notice many other such misinterpretations. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:52, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
The Wiki-article is about the discontinuity in the north-west South Asia, as observed by Lukacs and Hemphill. And as ypou noticed yourself, "The cultural link by way of artifacts is old, mentioned in early IVC sources." So, your objection is interesting and relevant, but does not apply the way you intended. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:57, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
@Joshua Jonathan, Capitals00, and RegentsPark: Joshua Jonathan, You have also misinterpreted the results of Underhill et al (2015), which guardedly states on page 128, that (my italics):
"It may have been in this cultural context that hg R1a-Z282 diversified in Central and Eastern Europe. The corresponding diversification in the Middle East and South Asia is more obscure. However, early urbanization within the Indus Valley also occurred at this time and the geographic distribution of R1a-M780 (Figure 3d) may reflect this."
and which explicity states in its conclusion on page 130 (my italics):
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417 occurred B5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence.54,60 However, our data do not enable us to directly ascribe the patterns of R1a geographic spread to specific prehistoric cultures or more recent demographic events. Highthroughput sequencing studies of more R1a lineages will lead to further insight into the structure of the underlying tree, and ancient DNA specimens will help adjudicate the molecular clock calibration. Together these advancements will yield more refined inferences about pre-historic dispersals of peoples, their material cultures, and languages."
That is a far cry from what you have written, which is:
"recent research by Underhill (2014/2015) on the spread of haplogroup R1a. Underhill et al. (2014/2015) conclude that R1a1a1, the most frequent subclade of R1a, split into Z282 (Europe) and Z93 (Asia) at circe 5,800 before present[149] in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey. It may have spread with "demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages," going to India and spreading further with the early urbanization of the Indus Valley Civilisation."
In other words, they are saying that they don't have any way as yet of calibrating the molecular clock assumptions either with fossil evidence or ancient human DNA. Yours is a misinterpretation of their conclusion, imputing certainty to results that are highly uncertain and conjectural. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:03, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
@Joshua Jonathan, Capitals00, and RegentsPark: Finally, the Romero results are also incompletely stated. First of all, as many Indian physicians know, most people in India are lactose intolerant. In fact, the newsletter of the University of Chicago, where she (Romero) was a post-doc at the time of the publication of the letter, says clearly (quoting her): "Another surprising fact was turned up by the researchers when they measure just how common the lactose tolerance mutation was among Indian populations. The mutation was found in less than 1 out of 5 individuals tested, a figure far lower than anticipated by many of the project’s Indian advisors. 'When I became interested in this project, everybody said "Everyone in India drinks milk,” ' Gallego Romero said. “But when we got the results, we said, ‘No, only 18 percent of people in India are digesting milk, nobody else is.'” In other words, we are talking about a trait present in 18% of Indians in the context of the spread of neolithic cultures from the Iranian plateau to Balochistan. Romero's actual paper concludes with,
"Taken together, our results indicate that the -13910*T allele is responsible for the substantial proportion of lactase persistence in the country. Furthermore, haplotype analyses indicate that the -13910*T allele in India is identical by descent to that found in Europe and western Asia, whereas examination of the pattern of haplotype block structure in the context of the archaeological history of herding across this intercontinental region suggests that the -13910*T allele was introduced to India from the west. However, within India, the lactase persistence phenotype has had a more structured adaptive history, with higher frequencies clustered in those groups that traditionally practice a dairying economy. Lactase persistence remains one of, if not, the best examples of coevolution between cultural and biological innovations, and the historical and socioeconomic complexity of India provides a unique opportunity for exploring the processes that generate human diversity."
This is not an independent genetic result that supports an archaeological fact (ie of spread of neolithic cultures), but rather one that uses the well-established spread of neolithic cultures to posit a time frame for the spread of the lactose tolerance allele in the Indian population. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:54, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
PS In other word, I am not convinced that if three examples that I picked out of the hat are incorrectly or incompletely summarized from the source material, that this problem does not plague the entire section. I believe this section needs to be removed in its entirety, until such time its accuracy can be vetted on the this talk page. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm the camp that is the polar opposite of the "Out of India" theory. I don't have any issues with outside trapping of Indian civilization. After all, we all, including all Indians, left Africa only about 60 to 70 K years ago. One solution could be to change the Mehrgarh section title to "Neolithic origins and influences." There, remove the garbage about Bhirrana, and introduce one paragraph, which is a highly compressed summary of your section, without actual quotes. I could live with that. It would stand as supplementary genetic data and analysis. But it can't be as extensive as the Genetics section itself. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:02, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Those weren't improvements, they were errors based on newspaper reports of unpublished research. I've fixed it. The report is at Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization byAnindya Sarkar, Arati Deshpande Mukherjee, M. K. Bera, B. Das, Navin Juyal, P. Morthekai, R. D. Deshpande, V. S. Shinde & L. S. Rao. It does say "Within the experimental errors both the stratigraphically controlled new ages agree with the time scale based on archaeological evidences (as well as 14C ages) proposed by earlier workers8,17,18,34; Fig. 3C,D) and suggest that the Bhirrana settlements are the oldest of known sites in the Ghaggar-Hakra tract" and that "The climate reconstruction at Bhirrana demonstrates that some of the Harappan settlements in the Ghaggar-Hakra valley are the oldest in India and probably developed at least by the ninth millennium BP over a vast tract of arid/semi-arid regions of NW India and Pakistan." It also says "The recent excavations at Rakhigarhi suggest hitherto unknown largest Harappan settlement in India preserving all the cultural levels including the Hakra phase" but this is too vague to use. Doug Weller talk 18:59, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
See Talk:Periodisation of the Indus Valley Civilisation. The article is about the Indus Valley tradition, not just the IVC, and I've suggested it be called that. Doug Weller talk 19:01, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa (talk) 18:22, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Indus Valley Civilisation → Indus Valley tradition – I originally started a rename proposal at Talk:Periodisation of the Indus Valley Civilisation but another poster suggested that the periodisiation article be merged to this one, and this one should be renamed. That makes much more sense as the content of this article is more than just the IVC, in fact it encompasses the Indus Valley tradition. As I said there, the Indus Valley tradition includes "Indus Valley CivilizatioN", "Harrapan Civilization" - ie the urban phases of the Indus Valley tradition, as well as the cultural phases that led up to the urban phase. As another author wrote, the IV tradition "may be thought of as the milieu of cultural/technological adaptations in the Greater Indus region within which urbanized civilization eventually emerged and existed" Hopefully this might be an aid in cutting down on some of the pov editing, the "my civilization is older than yours" editors. This is a fairly standard name, see for instance Google scholar. Doug Weller talk 12:37, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.@Fowler&fowler: That's a misunderstanding. We would still call the IVC the IVC. It's part of the Indus Valley tradition. That wouldn't change. This would simply delineate more clearly the phases of the tradition, and not lump them all incorrectly IMHO into the IVC. Doug Weller talk 15:26, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) User:Fowler&fowler]] Before our edit conflict I wrote "**Of course IVC shows up more, it's a larger and more important period. Right now the article has for instance Mehrgarh as part of the IVC. Ok, maybe I need to look to see how JSTOR etc define the IVC, and JStor isn't the best source of archaeology articles, most of them doing seem to be on JSTOR as I've found to my dismay. Because of that I'd stick to GScholar unless there's something comparable to JSTOR that includes the archaeology journals. If most of the archaeology sources define IVC as including Mehrgarh etc, then I'm wrong. In that case we mustn't let our articles make the assumption/claim that the earliest IVC date marks the oldest civilization, because that's not how archaeologists do it. " Yes to your first question. Your suggestion might work very well and I'd definitely back it. Doug Weller talk 17:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
What do people think about the source and the claim? Doug Weller talk 19:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Another interesting genetical study: Broushaki et al. (2016), Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent, Science, 14 Jul 2016. See Eurones Blog and anthrogenica.com for discussions. Quotes:
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:09, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
This: "Proto-Munda (or Para-Munda) and a "lost phylum" (perhaps related or ancestral to the Nihali language)[150] have been proposed as other candidates for the language of the IVC. Michael Witzel suggests an underlying, prefixing language that is similar to Austroasiatic, notably Khasi; he argues that the Rigveda shows signs of this hypothetical Harappan influence in the earliest historic level, and Dravidian only in later levels, suggesting that speakers of Austroasiatic were the original inhabitants of Punjab and that the Indo-Aryans encountered speakers of Dravidian only in later times.[151]"
I don't intend to get involved, but this seems very unlikely from what little I've read elsewhere - I gather that the latest thinking on Austroasiatic is that it formed only 4000 years ago, in the middle-Mekong valley. The authority is a certain Professor Sidwell. Anyway, if anyone's interested, I leave it to them.PiCo (talk) 00:50, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Two points. First, it seems more sensible to refer to these as cubes. Second, despite the article currently saying that these were decimal, in fact they appear to have been mainly made in a binary sequence 1, 2, 4 ... 16 etc - albeit with x10 and x100 steps above that. (https://sizes.com/units/harappan_weights.htm and https://www.harappa.com/slide/weights-harappa). Thoughts? Snori (talk) 21:05, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
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