Loading AI tools
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Does anyone have a reference for whether the Jolly Roger signifies a kill or a successful combat mission? Stephen B Streater 22:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The Good article [[Wikipedia:Good articles/Nominations|nomination]] for this page has failed. The article only cites sources for the "Use by submarines" and "Use by United States Navy aviators" sections; every section needs to be sourced. Additional items for improvement include:
I hope this comments are helpful. Best of luck in your editing! -Alex S 23:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I tried to make a beginning. Weird Bird 08:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
"Pirates and the Lost Templar Fleet" by David Hatcher Childress states that the Jolly Roger, was a masonic symbol used by Knights Templar and symbolically refers to "Baphomet" the head and bones of someone famous to them (ie: Mary Magdelene's bones, John the Baptist's bones, or Jesus' bones. See "The Da Vinci Code.")
The clerks at the local marine store said that it is illegal to fly the jolly roger in American waters. Anybody know if that is true?
The clerk was wrong. You can fly it as long as the American one is above it. I've been to Key West, and I'm drawing this from observation.--Count Mall 14:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the 'other uses' section, as I can't find any other reference to it:
Rojomoke 13:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
It has come to my attention from the author of "Quelch's Gold" that the pirate flag klnown as "Old Roger" supposedly flown by John Quelch in 1704 is a myth. I have therefore removed it from the section on the name's origins. Pirate Dan 15:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The first section says:
Since the decline of piracy, various military units have used the Jolly Roger, usually in skull-and-crossbones design, as a unit identification insignia or a victory flag. Such use of the Jolly Roger is not intended to identify the users as piratical, but to ascribe to themselves the proverbial ferocity and toughness of pirates.
I think spelling out to the reader that military units are not using the flag for 'piratical' reasons is not necessary. Instead how about crossing out this...?:
Since the decline of piracy, various military units have used the Jolly Roger, usually in skull-and-crossbones design, as a unit identification insignia or a victory flag, Such use of the Jolly Roger is not intended to identify the users as piratical, but to ascribe to themselves the proverbial ferocity and toughness of pirates.
Leaving us with:
Since the decline of piracy, various military units have used the Jolly Roger, usually in skull-and-crossbones design, as a unit identification insignia or a victory flag, to ascribe to themselves the proverbial ferocity and toughness of pirates.
Just a thought, Ajani57 04:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I wrote it that way, and I'm OK with changing it as you suggest. Editing. Pirate Dan 18:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Never mind, it's already been done. Pirate Dan 18:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Anything that is not supported by citations of verifiable reliable sources should be removed see WP:PROVEIT. There is so little cited in some sections that I have added the template {{unreferencedsection}} dated to November 2007. Any information in any of the sections so marked, should be deleted unless citations from verifiable reliable sources are added. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Removed sections with template that indicates no citations which have been in place for a month or more. See Wikipedia policy WP:PROVEIT for why I deleted those sections. It is my intention in the next few days/weeks to delete most of the rest of the text that does not carry citations. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Badly spelled, and I'm not sure about notability either. If someone wants to add that information back in (with citations) I suggest they include a list of other film, television, game, etc. references - an entire section for one character from one online game seems inappropriate. (Also, wasn't Jolly Roger a character from one of the movies as well? --Dbutler1986 (talk) 18:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
..just another theory states that the flag was derived from the old austrian flag (white eagle on black ground, which may be mistaken from the far for the Jolly Roger)because Austria at that time issued quite a number of letters of marque. It is at least as sounding as the other proposed theories.
What is with this article? It goes on forever naming possible etymologies, and never gives the final word. It says such and such is true "according to the history channel." Such and such is true "according to National Geographic." Either do your homework, or please don't tell that you learned things from the history channel. That'd be like sleeping with a girl and saying with a straight face "yeah that position, I learned that from watching hours pornography." Take a word of advice and shhh. Finally what does that mean to fire a missile "in anger?" 02:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)02:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)02:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)~
The following paragraph was removed from "Origins" for failing to provide a verifiable source after a year: "Not everyone agrees on this. Some historians[who?] think the term Jolly Roger is more likely a reference to the English use of 'Roger' as a term for fornication. Stud bulls in England were commonly named Roger. This implied that if the victim did not surrender, they would be 'Rogered'."
The image Image:ORP Sokol 1.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --08:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
The Richard Hawkins quote about black and red flags appears in several books I can find but none that looks like a respectable academic work of history. It's possible that this quote has been repeated verbatim but was originally made up or misremembered. Without a primary source, it may be best to delete this quote or list it as of uncertain origin. This is a shame because it's a nice quote. It would be best if somebody could verify it with a trustworthy source.SmartPatrol (talk) 14:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
World War I usage is different from "Four squadrons of the 90th Bombardment Group of the Fifth Air Force under General George C. Kenney, commanded by Colonel Art Rogers were known as the Jolly Rogers. " as the section has no citation given of any sort, there there is no cited evidence that the use of a scull and crossbones motif was a Jolly Rodger and not some other use of similar military emblems. So I have removed the section. --PBS (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I have moved this recent edition to the article to here:
While privateers are shown in earlier Dutch paintings flying a red flag, the first written record occured in 1694 when an English Admiralty law made the flying of a red flag known as a "Red Jack" mandatory. The first references to a black flag are contained in records of privateering actions dated 1697. These records show that when the victim's vessel showed resistance, the Red Jack was lowered and a black flag raised in it's place to indicate no quarter would be given. A yellow flag was also used but there is no record of it's meaning. With the end of the War of the Spanish Succession in 1714 many of the privateers turned to piracy and continued to use the red and black flags. Edward England for example flew the black flag depicted above from his mainmast, a red version of the same flag from his foremast and the English National flag from his ensign staff.
because it does not carry any citations (see WP:PROVEIT)--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
In the section "Origins of the Design" is the phrase "[...] the Red Jack was lowered and a black flag raised in its place to indicate that no quarter would be given." Since this sentence was not cited, and because I have actually read the opposite of the order in which these flags are raised from at least two different sources, I have deleted this sentence and cited David Cordingly's book Under the Black Flag (which I had on hand) which clarifies the issue. I have never read that yellow flags were used by pirates, though this certainly may be true (some pirates used green ribbon, though I don't find this entirely related to the Jolly Roger topic). Until there is documentation saying otherwise, I am removing it. I re-wrote the beginning of this section. My worry is that I didn't flow into the second half of the section well enough. Keraunoscopia (talk) 22:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
If this line can't be removed, can it be explained?
It's not at all clear what it even means. The plain reading of the line seems to indicate that all extant sources are in total agreement that every detail, save one, of the flags pictured below is historically accurate.
That seems insane and very difficult to reference. Does it mean only that the references cited agree with the images included in the article? That should go with out saying.
Either way what are "All" sources in agreement with? Each other? Or the images as shown?
Or does it mean something else, that I've completely missed? APL (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, this has to be one of the vaguest and worst articles I've read in the wiki project. Namely because it dilly dallies about without hitting on accurate points insofar as the history aspect.
The Jolly Roger as the joli rouge is accepted as a fact pretty much these days, the question lies in the fact that two flags were used, one as a heal-to, one as a battle flag. If the Skull and Crossbones didn't stop the opponent, the Jolly Roger was raised. Just because popular disney mentality has brought us into thinking the two flags are one in the same doesn't make it fact.
The Skull and Crossbones flag related article has nothing to do with the flag and is to do with the poison logo, which is another disheartening article altogether. Has anyone suggested a peer review on these two articles?
The S&C was the naval battle flag of the Knights Templars, it re-emerged when quite a few popular admirals cum pirates / privateers utilised one of the symbols of freemasonry, which many were alledged to be a part of, as their battle flag. There's too much ambiguity in this article about that.
Jachin 1 July 2005 08:59 (UTC)
There seems to be some contradiction in this article. We are told that privateers or pirates may have flown a red jack to indicate that none would spared but also:
"Typically, if a ship then decided to resist, the Jolly Roger was taken down and a red flag was then flown, indicating that the pirates intend to take the ship by force and without mercy...[i]t was hoped by many crews that this course of action would help spread the word that resistance was a poor idea for ships."
Who would escape to spread the word if the crew received no mercy?
12 February 2007
I have looked recently for info on this but cannot find any. Is this another case of a school text not doing due dilligence and not propperly vetting their sources?--WolvenSpectre (talk) 16:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone considered adding the other name for a Jolly Roger Happy Morgan (Bloodraven01 (talk) 23:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC))
I think the article could use pictures of the 'alternative' Jolly Rogers Borisblue 06:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Testing Watchlist PPGMD 1 July 2005 17:47 (UTC)
"...became the first Royal Navy submarine to fire a cruise missile in anger" - what does "in anger" refers to? Nikola 22:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
"Jolly Roger" comes from the Arabic "Ali Raja" literally "King of the Sea". This has been documented for centuries that the English term is a corruption of the term used for pirates in the southern Mediterranean. It's considered by many pirate historians to be the most plausible of all explanations and it's not even mentioned here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.151.21 (talk) 18:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding section 5: 'Use by Royal Navy Submarine Service' as stated it is the practice of RN submarines to fly the Jolly Roger when returning from a sucessful combat mission and I know that this is also the practice in the RAN, however I'm not sure if this is the practice in other navys founded on the RN model. If someone could confirm this the I could update the section --Searle, L. (talk) 06:10, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to step by, the article claims that the logo of the SRU in the canadian tv show Flashpoint used the Henry Every's version of the skull & bones. Is there any reference for that? Because I have a perfect screen capture of the show and it doesn't look like a skull at all, no way how I look at it. --Janus0104 (talk) 05:48, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
We have had the David Hatcher Childress theory that the Jolly Roger is a Templar symbol in the article for some time. However, Childress' Pirates and the Lost Templar Fleet is published by Adventures Unlimited Press - which Childress owns himself, according to this article: . Therefore, I believe it is "self-published" by Wikipedia standards, and should be booted out.
The theory is dubious on so many levels anyway: there is no evidence of Templar survival after Philip IV destroyed it, no evidence of the use of the phrase "Jolly Roger" until 1721, and then it was used by predominantly Protestant Anglophone pirates who had no reason to adopt the symbols of a Catholic holy order. Bartholomew Roberts' crew, for example, was so violently anti-Catholic that they refused to consider a "Papist" for their leader. Pirate Dan (talk) 16:31, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Pirate Dan that the Templar section should either be removed or reduced to a 1 paragraph 'crack pot' theory. It is a longish, factually stated introductory section, with no evidence to back it up. Wikipedia already has the reputation as being the ministry of disinformation - so lets try and change that... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.9.195 (talk) 15:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Changed the caption of the Stede Bonnet image from "engraving" to "woodcut." The ink visible in the negative (white)spaces is characteristic of a relief print rather than intaglio. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodcut> and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engraving> While the misidentification originates at the source for the image, <http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2007675638/>, (" Medium: 1 print : engraving"), "woodcut" is more accurate. Maybe the easiest course would be to use "illustration"? Vex Delay (talk) 16:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
The Mystery of Canada the War of 1812 and the Jolly Roger Flag explained on behalf of Sir Robert Shore Miles the Governor General of Canada who we (Canadians) credit with forming the Jolly Roger.
This is a theory that Canada has evolved with from repetitive rumors handed down from generation to generation about Canada and the Jolly Roger Flag that surpassed the War of 1812 and beyond not found on the Internet, Wikipedia or elsewhere.
The War of 1812 was fought between Canada and the U.S. along with the British whereas Canada was flying the Jolly Roger and Britain the Union Jack and U.S. the old Navy Jack. The White House burned and the U.S. requested the Jolly Roger flag of the newly formed country to the north to be brought to The White House and paid $2,800 for the Jolly Roger flag that was flown on Parliament of Canada now housed in U.S. Archives.
The Jolly Roger flag is the first flag of Canada ordered by Governor General Sir Robert Shore Milnes that flew for two and a half decades from 1801. Many of the Jolly Roger flags varied in design along with Winnipeg who flew the flag with two black eyes painted on it and Manitoba that flew its flag without teeth unlike British Columbia who was the first to fly with teeth and Vancouver that was made up of many Skull and Crossbones but the most distinguished was the flag on Parliament that flew the flag with its eye filled in.
68.7.175.4 (talk) 21:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on Jolly Roger. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 12:27, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I have moved the gallery from the article page to here because not one of the flag descriptions carries a citation from a reliable source. The flags need to have that because otherwise anyone can make up any flag and claim it is so & so's flag. --PBS (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
- As to Low's flag, for instance, Johnson writes, "Low goes aboard of this ship, [the Merry Christmas], assumes the title of admiral, and hoists a black flag, with the figure of death in red, at the main-topmast head." Charles Johnson (1724), A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious Pirates, ed. by David Cordingly (2002), Globe Pequot, ISBN 1585745588, p. 307.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Jolly Roger. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:48, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Jolly Roger. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jolly Roger. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
That the flag would be raised as a prelude to an attack. That seems like a waste of (limited) manpower that could be used to do something more productive than hoisting what amounts to a decoration. 108.200.234.93 (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
There are supposedly two or three surviving authentic flags in museums, shouldn't they be covered here? FunkMonk (talk) 09:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
I seem to remember hearing that the black flag meant that the pirates would only steal from ships, and not kill any of the passengers unless they attacked them first, but the red flag meant that the pirates would kill without mercy. MightyArms (talk) 22:33, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Suggest you add the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to the article about the Jolly Roger’s current use. 184.90.133.143 (talk) 03:04, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
The article on black beard says that this flag is erroneous. They conflict.
Seamless Wikipedia browsing. On steroids.
Every time you click a link to Wikipedia, Wiktionary or Wikiquote in your browser's search results, it will show the modern Wikiwand interface.
Wikiwand extension is a five stars, simple, with minimum permission required to keep your browsing private, safe and transparent.