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A news item involving José Saramago was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 18 June 2010. |
I've moved the "Anti-semitism" text below, since i think that Saramago's quotes and Bibliography are far more important in an Encyclopedia.
--Joaop 20:31, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
roflmao about the anti-semitism bit...finally someone said something.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.17.133 (talk) 09:40, 31 October 2004 (UTC)
Is there any reference about the supposed quota on the Nobel prize?
-- David Déharbe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.136.128.7 (talk) 15:59, 11 November 2004 (UTC)
I changed out "anti-semitism" in the introductory description. It IS important, but the descriptions of him as an anti-semite are less important than and external to his base profession and life.
--Adam — Preceding undated comment added 00:15, 22 November 2004 (UTC)
I removed a book supposedly published in 2005. I found no reference to this book in any other web page (well Google did not) but this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.19.160.1 (talk) 13:57, 22 March 2005 (UTC)
What?! Saramago is no way an anti-semitic! He just criticized Israel for killing THOUSANDS of innocent Palestinians in the way they kill. Just that! He is a communist, he is not anti-semitic. The quote on the nobel prize is indeed true, I'm Portuguese, I assure you. Afonso Silva 15:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
The comment that purportedly relates to Saramago's Anti Semitism stems from an interview in Oct 2003, where Saramago stated that the crimes that are being perpetrated upon the Palestinians by the occupying Israeli military forces in the West Bank and Gaza are comparable to Auschwitz. The comment has more to do with how Saramago sees the treatment of the Palestinians than it does with defaming Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwikle (talk • contribs) 16:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
"His main flaw, as writer, is predictability. One may assume for granted that in all his novels class struggle is the key for unraveling human conflict. Such a unilateral anthropology gives no room for psychological tension in his characters. They are not so much individuals as representatives of classes and values." This is POV, there is no place for such material in this article. If you believe I'm wrong, please revert, but present some links as to prove that there is a consensus on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sobretudo (talk • contribs) 05:33, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I am also portuguese and I'm waiting for the reference for the supposed quota.
--macl — Preceding undated comment added 11:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion the "style" section on this Article is rather poor. You basically mention Saramago as an author who writes long sentences, etc, etc, and you do not try to insert him in any literary cathegory. I would suggest that Jose Saramago is inserted in the cathegory of magic realism. In fact, almost all his novels follow the basic patterns of such style, since there are fictitious elements added to a story occuring in a "real world", which are not disputed by the "real characters", and which are not explained in logical terms in the end of the story. For instance, the abillity of Blimunda for seing inside humans flesh and the flying ship in "Blimunda and Baltasar", the unexplained collective blindness of the population in "blindness", almost 100% of the people voting in white in the governement elections in "seeing", etc, etc... You could eventually insert a cross-reference to the "magic realism" Article, which by the way is very complete and interesting, despite also not mentioning Saramago... Andre Bento — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.132.162.155 (talk) 14:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I replaced the doppelganger link with magical realism; I thought your point was valid, and doppelganger is one of many themes that Saramago adopts -- not quite a "see also" link, in my opinion. Judith24 15:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I took out the Palestine quote. I don't see how, removed from any context or explanation, it deserves to be singled out among all the things he's ever said, nor how it is relevant to his biography. Yak314 03:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find a source for the following:
his publication of Baltasar and Blimunda in 1988 brought him to the attention of an English-speaking readership. This novel won the Portuguese PEN Club Award.
Anyone else? Judith24 15:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Now Saramago appears to be a very controversial person, the controversies section is almost as large as that on his work. Imho this does not give a fair description of the subject (cf. WP:UNDUE), and I think we should remove some of it - at least until other sections are extended. I removed the unsourced "Auschwitz" statement. /SvNH 21:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Being the most powerful force when it comes to literary criticism, I was wondering if it is worth mentioning either of these two Bloom quotes--one being a reinforcement of the 'best living novelist' title and another of negative criticism:
“Saramago’s novels are endlessly inventive, endlessly good-natured, endlessly skillful,”
“but it baffles me why the man can’t grow up politically. In 2007, to be a Portuguese Stalinist means you’re simply not living in the real world.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/magazine/26saramago-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Neither quote may be detailed or descriptive enough to be worth adding, but I was just wondering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmiller0167 (talk • contribs) 06:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
You should definitely add that. It's not really fair that there is only Bloom's flattering description of Saramago on the page, while the criticism is being left out. Girlunderglass (talk) 20:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Well played, internet. --66.188.134.175 (talk) 09:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
202.40.139.168 (talk) 20:09, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree that there is a difference between criticizing Israel and being anti-semitic, however, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is either a very ignorant statement to make, or a very anti-semitic one. Saramago was not at all ignorant. The persecution of jews during the Holocaust, or any other time in history, was related to only a single fact: their being Jewish. They were accsued to be communists by fascists, capitalists by communists, or heathens by Christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saram78 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
One of the american sayings that I, as an european, admire is "two wrongs don't make a right" (something which might be relevant to a thorough understanding of Saramago's statements and opinions), but I think such statement applies to both sides of the situation between israelis and palestinians. However, I will refrain from anymore coments on whether I agree or disagree with the topic of anti-semitism because this text is meant to applaud the neutrality of whoever wrote the article we discuss here.
I am not sure just how neutral the article is because I lack certain details and intuition in these matters, but as far as I can tell the article seems very well thought.
Whatever my opinion is, the article mentions both the positive and the negative ways of analizing the writer's words, as well as each side's advocate's arguments, without favoring either one. Since I admire his work, I am thankful for that.
Despite my good opinion of this person, I am not thankful because the positive side is present but because both sides are present. This is crucial to understand the social context of Saramago's opinions (what was society's position towards him) and will allow readers to decide where they stand on this matter with a clear view of the problem. Who knows? Maybe one day I will realize that I should have another point of view, but it is good to know both sides so I can make an informed choice.
I wonder if the Swedish Academy would be as neutral as this article and take into consideration only the writer's work and not his social status, if he had spoken his mind before receiving the Nobel Prize, or if it would shun the writer for fear of being accused of anti-semitism by proxy.
Thank you for the article, whoever you are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkaever (talk • contribs) 10:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
I've reinstated a reduced quote from The Notebook, only on the basis that the preceding lines focus only on his alleged antisemitism, whereas this quote from one of his last books, and which was originally published on his blog, makes quite clear how the comparison between the Shoah and Palestine is intended to be read. He wants us to "extend the concept". Some people may find that shocking, but it is, nevertheless, a valid way of arguing. We do it all the time. In law, for example, one case is judged and establishes a precedent which is then extended in another case. He wants us to see Israel's (the State's) action in the occupied territories as being a version of what the Nazis did to the Jews (and indeed gays, communists, anarchists, etc). It may be right or wrong but it's what Saramago meant. That has to be taken into account. Otherwise, this article cannot be regarded as impartial. It must also be noted, as many contributors on this article have already said, that this is a tiny part of Saramago's life. It's even a tiny part of the number of people he offended. Should we also give equal weight to the anger felt by supporters of George W Bush, to the Vatican, to the right-wing parties in Portugal, the Junta of Argentina, General Pinochet, neo-nazis, etc.? The list of people and countries he expressed negative opinions on is large. He was a controversialist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Treeinthebog (talk • contribs) 15:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure if all the contributors here have actually read Saramago's work. I have. Saramago was far from anti-semitic (he actually edited a book on the Holocaust). He was, however, violently opposed to Israel's policy with regard to Palestine. I believe that if his anti-Israeli comments are to be included, for fairness sake, the quote I posted from The Notebook also needs to be included. In fact his opposition to Israel must be seen in conjunction with his other oppositional stances - all of which are fairly standard left-wing political positions - to the Catholic Church, to George Bush and his policies, to various governments that he characterises as right-wing, to racism, to the exploitation of the poor etc. His work and his political commentary is vast and complex. When I first encountered this article I thought that the section on anti-semitism was in danger of overpowering an otherwise sound article on Portugal's then greatest living writer - that's why I intervened. In fact his anti-Israeli comments are a very minor part of his oeuvre and should not be taken out of context with his other political positions. Treeinthebog (talk) 11:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
I am reinstating this section. It is properly sourced and extremely relevant to this article. The summarized version whitewash his comments as statments agains the state of Israel when in fact he has made statements specifically regarding Jews. Hence, a more detailed explanation is necessary to provide proper context.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC))
I disagree. Whitewashing Saramago's anti-semitism is hardly appropriate - and arguing that a focus on Anti-semitism is "laughable" is disgusting. The current summation convientently leaves out his specific statements against Jews. I'll consider trimming this section, but not to the point that it gives a false impression.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 05:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC))
Also, you have implied that my desire to include Saramago's statements on Jews is motivated by my views on Anti-Communism. Please elaborate: what do his statements on Jews have to do with Communism? Absolutely nothing. If you are going to imply that I am bias (i.e. that I have a "personal desire to damage" his reputation), surely you can come up with something better than that.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 05:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC))
Your arguments are poor. There is no whitewashing here. As the other editor said we are dealing with a writer of fiction books, not a political commentator. What is needed is that he said controversial remarks and what he was accused of. Two huge quotes from him is more than excessive. ValenShephard (talk) 14:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Google search
"Jose Saramago anti semite" 10,300 results "Jose Saramago writer" 134,000 results
This exaple shows that sources dealing with his writing are 1300% more common than sources dealing with his accused anti-semitism. So to have a balanced encyclopedia entry on this man, his controversial statements have to make up about 1/13 or 1/10 of the article. What is currently here is unaccepable. Go read WP Undue then come back with some arguments. ValenShephard (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with his ideology. Do you have any sources to back that up? Your suggestion that this is noteworthy part of his ideology is a raping of the facts. ValenShephard (talk) 16:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
It is not an important part of his life either. All his comments on Israel, Jews and Palestinians couldnt fill an A4 page, but his views on the catholic church, portugal, spain, censorship which his novels are about, could fill 1000+ pages. ValenShephard (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I think I put my comments in the wrong place. I placed them at the beginning of this section instead of here at the end. however, they still stand. I agree with ValenShepherd and others that the emphasis formerly placed on the allegations of antisemitism was too great. However, I still believe the quotation from The Notebook is necessary as his own voice on the allegations is not heard. An alternative would be to delete the section entirely. If I don't get agreement on this I'll abide my the consensus. Treeinthebog (talk) 17:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
If you want to include his quote from The Notebook, that's fine. However, as I have previously stated, his poitical views and opinions (especially as they relate to controversial topics) are notable. Saramago is a well-known figure and his political views, while not his primary claim to fame, are not exempt from Wikipedia.
As for ValenShephard (talk) (and yes, I am making a personal reference to you), you began your arguments against me by writing "Maybe its relevant to you because of your own POV of anti-communism. Extremely relevant? Laughable. Only so relevant if you have a personal desire to damage this writer comments". You attacked me personally by claiming that my desire to include his anti-semitic comments was motivated my views on Communism or a personal desire to damage his reputation. Not only is your theory incorrect - if he were of any political stripe, I would still point out his anti-semitic statements - but its inappropriate that you resorted to personal attacks and wild theories simply because you disagree with my point of view. Furthermore, my argument above was based on the reasoning that Saramago's statements on Jews (i.e. "the Jews endlessly scratch their own wound to keep it bleeding, to make it incurable, and they show it to the world as if it were a banner") were relevant and notable because they denote an anti-semitic (or at least an inappropriate) view of the Jewish people. You proceeded to claim that this reasoning was "laughable", which I think is disgusting. If you are going to launch personal attacks on people and insult views that they hold as important, you shouldn't be surprised when someone criticizes you for doing so.
Anyway, I'm fed up with arguing about this. The current version of this section (including his quote from "the Notebook if you want) is fine for the time being. Let's move on.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
I assumed good faith from the beginning when I argued that this section should be included because the material was properly sourced and the statements were notable and relevant (all of which are "Wikipedia policy"). You were the one accused me of having a hidden anti-communist agenda or a personal vendetta - when in fact, his political views were irrelevant to whether or not this section was included. Making up theories and accusations against people is hardly appropriate for Wikipedia (which is also "Wikipedia Policy"). I suggest you read up further on Wikipedia policy.
With regard to undue weight, you have somehow concluded that because a Google search has a 1-13 ration of the search "Jose Saramago anti semite" and "Jose Saramago writer", this wikipedia page should therefore have the exact same ratio. I was unaware that a google search is now considered to be a basis for material included in Wikipedia articles. You also claimed to cite 50+ wikipedia policy points to support you view... are you sure that is accurate? I didn't count that many.
With regard to the argument that Saramago is only Anti-Israel and not Anti-semitic, I have not discounted this possibility. Rather, his statements that were included in this section suggested otherwise. However, I only included the statement - I did not express my personal opinions in the article (only in the talk page). And if you want to cite additional evidence that indicates otherwise, feel free to (I have never argued against that). I completely agree that it is possible to oppose Israeli policy regarding the Palestinians without being Anti-semitic - however, it is also possible to oppose Israeli policy and be Anti-semitic.
Anyway, as I previously stated, the current configuration is fine for the time being.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 03:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC))
I have removed the citations to the hysterical David Frum's piece, and the ADL press releases. A press release from the ADL is not a source, it is propoganda. That is just a fact, not opinion. It has no place here. Frum's piece is so over the top and biased (referring to JS as a "Jew hater") that is also has no place in a reference article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnDavidBurgess (talk • contribs) 19:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
It would be useful to expand the politics section. For example, in Blindness, socialist methods of distribution are named. His politics are significant. And no, I do not mean Israel-related stuff. Zazaban (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
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