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The party designations at present are misleading. I would strongly suggest you look at some way in which you can indicate coalitions. An obvious example is the coalition during the Great War, which was not 'Liberal' once the Tories were admitted, nor would have been described as such by any contemporary. Neither was Lord Salisbury's third government a Conservative one, but Unionist - the distinction may not matter to you, but was significant at the time, the Liberal Unionists having split from the Liberals over Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.14.198 (talk) 18:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, the coalition governments were important parts of the British political makeup, easily as much as any single-party administration, and the Prime Ministerial terms should be marked to represent such. Lloyd-George, for example, whilst a lifelong Liberal MP, was never a Liberal Prime Minister... 139.222.126.141 (talk) 17:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't suppose this is the right place to ask this, but I couldn't see where else to. On the pages of UK (note not GB) prime ministers, Henry Addington onwards, they are given a numbering, for instance in Addington's case '17th Prime Minister of the United Kingdom' which includes all the GB PMs. I'm sorry to nitpick, but is this really exactly correct? Addington was, in my view, the second PM of the UK (Pitt the younger being the first). Passingtramp (talk) 11:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I have added the death of Princess Diana into his list of events, as it was not mentioned previously. Princess Diana died in 1997 in a fatal car crash. Tony Blair was prime minister at the time and he had made a very memorable speech. For more information: Princess Diana Fzhi555 (talk) 10:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
User 82.46.228.175 has just added an unverified statement claiming that the first use of the title of Prime Minister was in 1905. However, after digging through Hansard records, I have found the term was in use since 1885. There were 195 recorded references to "Prime Minister" in the 1880s including 20 March 1885 and 14 April 1885. This figure rose to 1,240 recorded references in the 1890s. Unless there is a specific source that claims the title only appeared in 1905 it seems pretty clear that it was in common use within Parliament long before that. Road Wizard (talk) 13:05, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
This is not currently the case with Tony Blair - rst20xx (talk) 02:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted User:81.110.220.68's inclusion of titles into the names of the Prime Ministers, as the titles were issued after they retired from the office of Prime Minister (except Benjamin Disraeli, as is noted already under his second term). As the titles were not relevant to their times in office, they should not be provided on this page. For example, if a reader was looking for the time that Henry Addington served as Prime Minister, they would not be looking for Viscount Sidmouth. Comments of other editors would be welcome. Road Wizard (talk) 06:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to reference each PM? Some information can surely be considered general knowledge, at the back of many OEDs, for example, so it's hardly a disputed fact. Besides, there is a link to Number 10's website here as well. William Quill (talk) 17:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
To be honest, it just looks odd to me to credit these particular works with a list like this. If the single source at the bottom of the page was from The Times or The Guardian, fair enough, but as it's Number 10 itself, it's fairly much the authoritative source on this matter. I believe I'm right in thinking that when this list was originally written the sources used here were not the sources used, or at least we have no way of knowing that they were. But if these facts need to be in the table, I think if it would look better if they were within the other cells, as in List of English monarchs. William Quill (talk) 17:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it does look neater as it is than to have multiple references across the line, if that is the only other option. The fact of references at all put me off, and I still think that for exceptionally well-known trivia, a single reference for the list should suffice. But I can let it go if there if it would just look messy if changed. --William Quill (talk) 10:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
According to George Malcolm Thomson in his book "The Prime Ministers" fifteen UK prime ministers are descendants of Sir George Villiers of Brokesby who was the father of the first duke of Buckingham. These are
Thomson also states that HM the Queen is a descendant of Sir George. As David Cameron's ancestor's include King William IV it may be that he could soon be added to the above list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank.corr (talk • contribs) 12:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I was considering numbering the PMs (starting with Walpole) & counting non-consecutive mandate PM's just once. Would this be wise & accurate of me? GoodDay (talk) 17:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The page gives '(1757 Caretaker Ministry)' as the link to the Ministry of William Cavendish The Duke of Devonshire 16 November 1756 - 25 June 1757. However, the Caretaker Ministry only began when Pitt left office as Southern Secretary on 6th April 1757. Although there is no page for the 1756-7 'Pitt the Elder Ministry', I feel that its existence should be recorded.
Alekksandr (talk) 13:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I have inserted this (as 'Devonshire-Pitt Ministry') and done likewise for the 1766-8 'Chatham Ministry' and the 1807-9 'Second Portland Ministry'. I have also added a link for the First Pitt the Younger Ministry
At present some of these links are to 'Ministry' pages (which just show the Cabinet) and some are to 'Government' pages (which also show those outside the Cabinet). I propose that the page should link to 'Ministry' pages where they exist, and to 'Government' pages where there is no 'Ministry' page. It seems strange that we have a link which appears as 'Ministry' but which actually goes to the 'Government' page even though the 'Ministry' page exists. This would involve the following changes (working backwards from the present) : -
1. Labour Government 1974–1979 to Callaghan Ministry 2. Labour Government 1974–1979 to Second Wilson Ministry 3. Caretaker Government 1945 to Churchill Caretaker Ministry 4. Coalition Government 1940–1945 to Churchill War Ministry 5. War Government 1939–1940 to Chamberlain War Ministry 6. Fourth National Government 1937–1939 to Fourth National Ministry 7. Third National Government 1935–1937 to Third National Ministry 8. Liberal Government 1905–1915 to First Asquith Ministry 9. Liberal Government 1892–1895 to Fourth Gladstone Ministry 10. Liberal Government 1886 to Third Gladstone Ministry 11. Conservative Government 1885–1886 to First Salisbury Ministry 12. Liberal Government 1880–1885 to Second Gladstone Ministry 13. Conservative Government 1874–1880 to Second Disraeli Ministry 14. Liberal Government 1868–1874 to First Gladstone Ministry 15. Conservative Government 1866–1868 to First Disraeli Ministry 16. Conservative Government 1866–1868 to Third Derby Ministry 17. Liberal Government 1859–1866 to Second Russell Ministry 18. Conservative Government 1858–1859 to Second Derby Ministry 19. Coalition Government 1852–1855 to Aberdeen Ministry 20. Conservative Government 1852 to First Derby Ministry 21. Whig Government 1846–1852 to First Russell Ministry 22. Conservative Government 1841–1846 to Second Peel Ministry 23. Whig Government 1835–1841 to Second Melbourne Ministry 24. Conservative Government 1834–1835 to First Peel Ministry 25. Whig Government 1830–1834 to First Melbourne Ministry 26. Whig Government 1830–1834 to Grey Ministry 27. Tory Government 1828–1830 to Wellington Ministry 28. Canningite Government 1827–1828 to Goderich Ministry
Alekksandr (talk) 00:57, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Now done
Alekksandr (talk) 12:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be some inconsistency as to how these are treated. Churchill is shown in two consecutive rows for (1) his 1940-45 War Ministry and (2) his 1945 Caretaker Ministry. MacDonald is shown in two consecutive rows for (1) his 1929-31 Labour Government and (2) the First and Second National Ministries. Chamberlain has a single row for 'Fourth National Ministry' and 'Chamberlain War Ministry'. Asquith has a single row for 'First Asquith Ministry' and 'Coalition 1915–16'. I appreciate that this may flow from inconsistent treatment in the 'Ministry/Government' articles, and that it may not be possible to resolve the issue without altering them. I feel that it is necessary to have separate rows when the two terms had different political compositions - eg the change from (1) a Liberal to a Coalition Government in 1915 and (2)a Coalition to a Conservative government in 1945. OTOH, the change from 'Fourth National Ministry' to 'Chamberlain War Ministry' in 1939 was little more than a reshuffle - no party entered government. I suggest that the 'Ministry' and 'Government' pages for those 2 should be combined to show a single National Ministry/Government in office from 1937-40, and that Chamberlain's row on this page should have a single link to it. Likewise, the change from 'First National Government' to 'Second National Government' in November 1931 was little more than a reshuffle - no party entered or left government. I suggest that the 'Ministry' and 'Government' pages for those 2 should be combined to show a single National Ministry/Government in office from August 1931 to June 1935, and that MacDonald's 'National Government' row on this page should have a single link to it. I also suggest that there should be two rows for Asquith, as follows: -
Portrait | Name Constituency/Title |
Term of office — Electoral mandates |
Political party | Other ministerial offices held while Prime Minister |
Refs | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Herbert Henry Asquith MP for East Fife |
7 April 1908 |
25 May 1915 |
Liberal (First Asquith Ministry) |
First Lord of the Treasury, Leader of the House of Commons & Secretary of State for War (1914) |
[1] | ||
January 1910†, December 1910† | |||||||
†Hung Parliaments. Liberal Welfare Reforms; People's Budget; Parliament Act 1911; National Insurance and pensions; Suffragettes and the Cat and Mouse Act; Home Rule Act 1914; World War I. | |||||||
Herbert Henry Asquith MP for East Fife |
25 May 1915 |
7 December 1916 |
Liberal (Coalition 1915–16) |
First Lord of the Treasury, & Leader of the House of Commons |
[1] | ||
— | |||||||
Easter Rising. |
Alekksandr (talk) 14:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Now done.
Alekksandr (talk) 22:55, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
However, Asquith's second ministry was completely during the reign of George V, so what I did was stick it there. It also looks better. 98.14.187.227 (talk) 14:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
The article calls him a 'Whig (Rockinghamite)'. However, states 'The North administration left power in March 1782 following the American Revolution, and a coalition of the Rockingham Whigs and the former Chathamites, now led by the Earl of Shelburne, took its place.'. I therefore propose to change Shelburne's description to 'Whig (Chathamite)'.
Alekksandr (talk) 18:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
See http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VSmFSMCirugC&lpg=PA124&dq=Shelburne%20Chathamite&as_brr=3&pg=PA124#v=onepage&q=Shelburne%20Chathamite&f=false 'Shelburne, the chathamite leader' http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VSmFSMCirugC&lpg=PA124&dq=Shelburne%20Chathamite&as_brr=3&pg=PA124#v=onepage&q=Shelburne%20Chathamite&f=false 'the Chathamite earl of Shelburne' http://books.google.co.uk/books?pg=PA53&dq=Shelburne%20Chathamite&lr&cd=28&id=UI8LAAAAIAAJ&as_brr=3&output=text 'Lord Shelburne heads the Chathamites'. I propose to make the amendment, citing these authorities
Alekksandr (talk) 22:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I think we can all agree this needs edit protection. Metallurgist (talk) 20:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
David Cameron is head of the Conservative party, but is he a Conservative PM? Isn't it meant to be a Conservate/Liberal Democrat alliance? 89.242.124.119 (talk) 07:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I would revert the page to be listed under century then monarch, as in any practical sense the monarch is of little pertinence. Furthermore, Winston Churchill (first term) and David Cameron should be coloured as 'coalitions' rather than Conservatives (as I believe was done before). This is a more accurate reflection of the government of the time and it would seem to me better to state the government they served (be it a party or coalition) then what party they belonged to. Cheers, Mtaylor848 (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Why is Aberdeen described as the 'only Peelite prime minister'? Surely Peel and Gladstone fit into this category? In any case it is a misleading description, since it appears to assume the allegiance of 'Peelite' is equivalent to 'Conservative' or 'Liberal'. Best to delete this, I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.8 (talk) 21:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Although you are technically correct, this still smacks of bad history. Yes, Aberdeen was a Peelite, but the faction certainly did exist before 1846 and elements of it continued to exist after 1859. Just because Peelites did not fit into either the Conservative or liberal grouping between 1846 and 1859 does not mean it was only during this period that they were a distinctive faction. It seems to me as though someone has seen that Aberdeen was a 'Peelite' while Peel was a 'Conservative' and Gladstone a 'liberal' and put in the description 'only Peelite prime minister'. This fails to capture the subtlety of British politics in the mid-Victorian period. The fact is, it was possible for Peel to be both a Peelite and a Conservative and, later, for Gladstone to be both a Peelite and a liberal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.8 (talk) 12:17, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
What I mean to say is that while it is technically correct that Aberdeen was the only Prime Minister who could only be described as a Peelite, he was not the only Peelite Prime Minister. It just seems clumsy is all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.8 (talk) 19:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd rather delete it altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.8 (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
How about this:
'Gladstone condoned most of the agenda set out in chapter 10 [the liberal programme of 1868]. But hardly any of it was his. It arose from within the whig-Liberal tradition, updated to cope with political needs after 1867. Gladstone was not from that tradition; he was a Peelite.'
Parry, J., 'The rise and fall of liberal government in Victorian Britain' (1993), p.247 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.8 (talk) 18:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Can the 'only Peelite prime minister' description now be deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.8 (talk) 13:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Would anyone object if I deleted 'only Peelite prime minister' from the Aberdeen entry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.8 (talk) 16:26, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I must object to the recent edit by User:Tryde, which removes the constituencies which the PMs represented and the given names of peers. The constituency is significant because it indicates the MP's right to sit in the House of Commons. For example, it is significant that Peel represented Tamworth because of the Tamworth Manifesto, often regarded as the founding document of the Conservative Party, which was (officially, at least) part of Peel's constituency campaign. Listing the constituencies also helps to sort those PMs who became peers during their term (Walpole, Disraeli) or who ceased to be peers (Douglas-Home).
The given name of peers is also often deeply significant. It is highly significant that Chatham was called William Pitt, because he is widely known as Pitt the Elder and because he was Pitt the Younger's father. It is also significant that Newcastle was called Pelham, because he was Henry Pelham's brother, and that Lord John Russell is the same person as the Earl Russell. Salisbury being named (Gascoyne-)Cecil and Derby being named (Smith-)Stanley are significant because these are families of remarkable political lineage. This issue has been discussed before, and it was felt that my solution of rendering the given name of peers in small text, resolved the matter. BartBassist (talk) 09:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
John Russell, 1st Earl Russell |
Edward Smith-Stanley, 14th Earl of Derby |
So, this list has been featured for a while, so I'm reviewing it in-line with our current standards.
The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
A quick thank you for making several good changes to the list. There are still a few issues with WP:ACCESS (colours without symbols/text/key) and headings with links (discouraged). Existing colour scheme (e.g. Labour with a red background) is much more accessible than the proposed one (e.g. Brown with a thick red stripe next to him). I'm also not sure why the table heading can't be row- and col-spanned just like the table itself, so instead of Term of office separated by an en-dash from Electoral mandates, why not make the cells in the heading equivalent to the table?
As an aside, I'm aware of {{sofixit}} but I review just about every list at WP:FLC, and have started reviewing every single WP:FL so so-fix-it would take me a month of Sundays, and I'd hate to make a mistake. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Will someone please explain the point of the ref column? What exactly are these refs supporting? -Rrius (talk) 04:26, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
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