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Perhaps this article is more aptly named Moses of Chorene's History of Armenia? The article has paragraph or two about the author and the rest of it is about the book he wrote and its impact.
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Or Perhaps we should create an article about the book, copy the text here about the book into that new article and reference it here?
I changed this a bit because the new version could not necessarily be inferred from Thomson's statement. I'm no great expert here and I need to get my hands on more books, but as far as I see it we need to determine whether:
I don't have the sources to sort this out at the moment. If anybody can get hold of them, it would be a help. I'd just like to say though that I'm glad to see someone is taking a more scholarly approach to this and other Armenian historical articles. Cheers. --Folantin 09:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I really don't know what Wikipedia's (English-language) policy is on this but I'm considering to move this article once more to Movses Khorenatsi to reflect the correct transliteration of the historian's name. We have several other articles that are like this (Kirakos Gandzaketsi, Stepanos Taronetsi, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, etc.) so unless anyone has some concerns, we can move it to Movses Khorenatsi.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The "correct" (unambiguous) transliteration would be Movsēs Xorenac‘i. But we have the policy of using the name most common in English language usage, which is clearly Moses of Chorene. Article should be moved back.
try to avoid moving articles around without consensus and without being aware of Wikipedia naming conventions. --dab (𒁳) 15:09, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
« so that they themselves learn the Greek and Assyrian languages » : « Assyrian language » redirects to « Akkadian language », dead since 100 AD. Don't you think that this « Assyrian » is in fact « Syriac », useful for understanding the Gospels (Tatian…) ?
--Budelberger (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC) (). (And please, correct the « of of » !)
I don't understand why did MarshallBagramyan remove the sources that I quoted? Most notable experts in this field doubt that Movses actually lived in the 5th century. Their opinion must be presented too.--Grandmaster 04:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
RGS's article is next to useless and tells us nothing we don't already know. Furthermore, scholars outside of Armenia reject the hypercritical approach of Toumanoff and Thomson also (Vrej Nersissian, a very authoritative individual and the Curator of the Christian Middle East Section at the British Library, has published multiple reviews over the past 30 years on this topic). We have an updated source, with five editors, telling us that their approach and opinions are pretty much invalidated. That you think it is appropriate to insert the word "some" is disingenous and is clear weasal wording.
Besides, it's rather strange that scholars who can't even speak (modern) or barely read classical Armenian (such as Hewsen) are really being given this undue weight just because they publish outside of Armenia.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 04:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Here are some sources. Hewsen:
This Primary History has come to us in two redactions, a long and a short.2 The shorter version is attributed to the earliest known Armenian historian, Agathangelos (fourth century A.D.?) and is presented in the opening section of a seventh-century work ascribed – probably wrongly – to a certain bishop named Sebeos.3 The longer version, much expanded and edited, is contained in Book One of the compilation of Armenian antiquities known as the History of Armenia by Pseudo-Moses of Khoren. While the date of this work has been much disputed, it appears now to be a product of the late eighth or early ninth century.4
2. For the short redaction, translated into French under the title "Le Pseudo-Agathange: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see V. Langlois, Collection des historiens anciens et modemes de lilrmtnie (2 vols.: 1869-80), 1: 195-200; for the long version, published under the title "Mar Apas Catina: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see ibid., pp. 18-53, and also the first book of "Moise de Chorene," ibid., 2:53-78.
3. G. Abgarian, "Remarques sur l'histoire de Sebeos," Revue des etudes armeniennes, 1 (1964), pp. 203-15, where it is demonstrated that the real author of this work was probably the monk Khosrovik.
4. C. Toumanoff, "On the Date of Pseudo-Moses of Chorene," Handes Amsorya (Dec. 1961), pp. 468-76.
Hewsen, Robert H. The Primary History of Armenia: An Examination of the Validity of an Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2., 1975, pp. 91-100.
Thompson:
The History of Armenia by Movses Khorenatsi (Moses of Khoren) is the most comprehensive work in early Armenian historiography, but also the most controversial. Movses claims to have been a pupil of Mashtots's, and he ends his work with a long lament on the evil days that befell Armenia following the deaths of Mashtots and of the patriarch Sahak and the abolition of the Arsacid monarchy (which had occurred earlier, in 428). On the other hand, there are indications in the book itself that it was written after the fifth century. Not only does Movses use sources not available in Armenian at that time, he refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries. Furthermore, he alters many of his Armenian sources in a tendentious manner in order to extol his patrons, the Bagratuni family, who gained preeminence in the eighth century. But despite the fact that Movses Khorenatsi is not known or quoted by sources before the tenth century, he became revered in tradition as the "father of history, patmahayr," and elaborate legends about his life, his other writings, and his association with Mashtots's other pupils gained credence after the year 1000.
Richard G. Hovannisian. The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century. St. Martin's Press, 1997ISBN 0312101686, 9780312101688. Chapter 9. Robert Thomson. Armenian Literary Culture through the 11th Century.
Britannica:
Moses of Khoren – author known as the father of Armenian literature. Traditionally believed to have lived in the 5th century, Moses has also been dated as late as the 9th century. Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in the History of Armenia, which bears his name as author. His claims to have been the disciple of Isaac the Great (Sahak) and Mesrop Mashtots, to have studied in Edessa and Alexandria after the Council of Edessa (431), and to have been commissioned to write his History by the governor Sahak Bagratuni, have been rejected by most serious scholars, in large part because of anachronisms in his text. His work, however, is a valuable record of earlier religious tradition in pre-Christian Armenia.
Grandmaster 05:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, looking at your edit, how is this not weasel wording, and how this wording that you included can be considered neutral:
Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century due to historical inconsistencies, addressed him as "Pseudo-Movses", and moved him and the History to the seventh to ninth centuries.[12][13] Stepan Malkhasyants, an Armenian philologist and expert of classical Armenian literature, likened this period to a "competition, " whereby one scholar attempted to outperform the other in their criticism of Movses.[14] Although these views have now been discredited and "much of this criticism has been rejected,"[15] there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work.[16]
You say that "Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century", however you can see that many modern publications, including even Britannica doubt that Movses actually wrote his work in the 5th century. And the last line which attempts to present the opinion of one person as a fact is not in line with NPOV, and again uses weasel wording (there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work). Grandmaster 05:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, this work by Ronald Grigor Suny that you removed from the article provides interesting information about the dispute over Khorenatsi:
I don't think that you should be simply removing the opinions that you disagree with. All notable opinions must be presented.--Grandmaster 05:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
There are two possibilities: There was a Movses Khorenatsi in the 5th century, and the History is pseudepigraphical and attributed to Movses a century or two after his death, or Movses is in fact the author of the History, but he did live one or two centuries later than the traditional date. As far as I can see, the two possibilities are effectively equivalent for all practical purposes. --dab (𒁳) 14:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
And both possibilities are present in the article. Nevertheless, unless you guys actually know what the critcism that Thomson et al. are presenting, don't just simply regurgitate sources. The exact opposite can be done and we can go on forever. Unless you are aware of the nitty-gritty of the actual debate and have read the reviews and the books, slavishly quoting them is not going to cut it. And Dbachmann, if it's not too much to ask, go read Malkhasyants' biography before you question his reliability. I know you like to scan and root out nationalism but please, there are limits to everything.
I added Cyril Toumanoff as a source because he presents his arguments against the 5th century dating far more better than Hewsen does.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The credibility tag was added blindly and without any reason. "...criticize it heavily as a historical source" was also added from who knows where when all the relevant material is regarding inaccuracies in the timeframe but not the source material itself. The ten or so Artaxias' frontier stones with Aramaic based inscriptions found around Lake Sevan were only mentioned by Khorenatsi and no other source, this alone attests to the remarkable value of this source. It's obvious that new material was added in later centuries because various personas and events from those centuries are mentioned but it doesn't reflect on the accuracy of the content nor deny the possibility of multiple authorship in the course of several centuries. Dbachmann, you really oughta recuse yourself from all Armenian related articles, even if it's just reverting ararat_arev socks. This is not the first time when you have made all-encompassing changes seemingly resulting from bad faith.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Moses Khorenats'i occupies a special place in Armenian national tradition, as the first author to attempt a connected account of the country's history from Urartian times up to his own purported life-time-namely the fifth century A.D. Since Moses was in fact a writer of the eighth century or thereabouts, he could easily have continued his narrative for another three hundred years, but this would have exposed his own literary deception, making nonsense of his claim to be a disciple of St Mesrop Mashtots, the inventor of the Armenian alphabet.
The reassignment of Moses Khorenats'i from the fifth to the eighth century was mooted as early as the 1890's by A. Carriere; Professor C. Toumanoff summarizes the evidence in the journal Handes Amsorya, Vol. 75, 1961, cols. 467-76. Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.
David M. Lang. Reviewed work(s): "Moses Khorenats'i": History of the Armenians by Robert W. Thomson. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 42, No. 3 (1979), pp. 574-575
ok, enough with this nonsense. The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. When I see a reference to details of Movses' biography, I do not want to see an obscure reference like "Sargsyan, Gagik. «Մովսես Խորենացի» (Movses Khorenatsi). Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, 1982, pp. 40-41". I want to be informed which medieval source this information is due to, or at the very least I want some academic English language reference. Movses is easily important enough to find coverage outside 1980s Soviet encyclopedias. --dab (𒁳) 14:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the hyping of stale Soviet Armenian criticism into a living "controversy". If there is any Armenian author criticizing the mainstream date today, let's see a post-1991 reference. Anything dating to between 1960 and 1991 should be subsumed in a brief "and there was much grumbling in Soviet Armenia". Thanks to to MarshallBagramyan for giving us a brief taste of what was the talk of Erevan historians back in the 1980s, but this is 2009. --dab (𒁳) 14:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Who gives a damn if it's unaccessible to you? It's accessible to plenty of people and it's a verifiable published source. That's all that is needed. If you can provide published criticism of any of the references than we can talk otherwise cease disrupting this article with your saber-rattling and unencylopedic edits.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 16:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
--Folantin (talk) 16:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)Because this is the English Wikipedia, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source has been used correctly. Where editors translate a direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.
I agree that Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia is a very mysterious source that is used in many articles here, but which no one outside of Armenia can verify, as it is written in Armenian. Considering that Great Soviet Encyclopedia is not considered a reliable source on most topics, I don't think any other Soviet encyclopedia should be considered a reliable source. Grandmaster 20:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. That's of course not true. When I wrote the article in French, I used for the biographic part:
Sardur (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Please see below some excerpts from a source from around the same time as Malkhasyants, i.e. 1940. It explains in more detail the criticism of early dating of Movses, including some of the sources mentioned in the article.
Even though he (Khorenatsi) is not the earliest of Armenian historians 3 (assuming for the moment that wrote late in the fifth century), yet he has been called the father of Armenian historians, the Armenian Herodotus. He has been referred to by all writers during at least ten centuries 4 as the Grammarian, a word which in its Armenian original signifies the most learned among writers of history.
3 The first attempt to write a history of Armenia was made by Agathangelos, the Greek secretary to King Tiridates (387-442 A.D.), in his History of King Tiridates, originally written in Greek. The second writer, Faustus of Byzantium, who wrote a History of Armenia covering 344-392 A.D., was probably also a Greek.
4 Though it has been assumed that he wrote in the fifth century, yet the earliest reference to his work is made by John Catholicos in his History of Armenia, a work written in the third decade of the tenth century.
Very little is known about this unique character, and that little has come down to us through his History. Therein (Book III, chapt. 60) we are told that he was a disciple of Fathers Sahag and Mesrob, the two learned men who originated the Armenian alphabet (in 412 A. D.), that they sent him to Edessa, Alexandria, Byzantium and Athens to study (III 62), and that at the time of the composition of his History he was an old and infirm man, preoccupied with works of translation (III 65). Since his History concludes with the year 440 A. D., it was naturally supposed that he wrote after the middle of the fifth century. This supposition was at first generally accepted, the prevalent belief being that it was written some time between 460 and 480. The validity of this date was for a while accepted even by one (the late Alfred von Gutschmid of the University of Leipzig) who subsequently proved to be the severest critic of our author.5 Such was, and to a large extent still is, the traditional view about the life and the work of Moses of Khoren which was accepted by the Armenians. It is this traditional and unquestioned view that has been subjected to much severe criticism during the course of the past hundred years. The object of this paper is to summarize and evaluate such criticism.
In the seventies of the last century Alfred von Gutschmid brought to bear all the weight of his scholarship and concluded that the Hlistory was written not in the years 460-480 (as he once had supposed), but between the years 634 and 642. His most weighty argument was confirmed by Moses of Khoren's anachronistic passages, such as his reference to the division of Armenia Major into four provinces (which division took place in 536), and his reference to the Persian advance in Bithynia (which point the Persians first reached in 609). The Nestor of Leipzig was not only the first noted authority to expose convincingly the most serious defects of the History, but he also remains as the first to emphasize the fact that Moses of Khoren, assuming that he wrote in the fifth century, was sadly lacking in contemporary historical knowledge.
In 1892 the late Auguste Carriere of the Ecole des Langues Orientales Vivantes (Paris) carried the study of our author's History a step further and came out with another startling exposure. His studies not only convinced him that the History was a work of the eighth century but also that its celebrated author liberally used sources to which he makes no reference at all. Thus in addition, Moses of Khoren was accused of plagiarism. According to Carriere the two works which Moses of Khoren used freely were the Life of Silvester and the Ecclesiastical History of Sokrates. The former was available in the Armenian translation no earlier than the year 690, and the latter in 696. Here, therefore, "was proof, short and peremptory," that Moses of Khoren's History was at best a work of the eighth century.
This sort of argument was exploited to the full by the late G. Khalathianz of the Lazarev Institute (Moscow). In his monumental study, The Armenian Epic, he examined Moses of Khoren's History and concluded that our author copied not only from works already indicated by Carriere but also from those of Sebeos (an Armenian writer of the seventh century), Faustus of Byzantium, and specially from Ghevont (Leontius) the Elder. And as the work of the last named writer was ready only in the year 790, Moses of Khoren must have written some time after that date, probably early in the ninth century."
A. O. Sarkissian. On the Authenticity of Moses of Khoren's History. Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1940), pp. 73-81
This paper also provides some counter arguments in support of 5th century dating, but overall conclusion is that it was not possible to make a definite conclusion about the dating of this scholar. Since then not much changed, most leading western scholars date this author much later than the 5th century, while the scholars in Armenia insist that he was a 5th century scholar. Grandmaster 05:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Several American "armenologists", without taking into account the difficult and dangerous situation prevailing at present for Armenia and the Armenian people, with their "analyses" and "conclusions" have thrown water on the mill of Turkish and Azerbaijani pseudo-historians and leaders (Nina Garsoïan, James Russell, Ronald Suny, Robert Thomson, Levon Avdoyan, Robert Hewsen and others). Those persons of "objective" learning, but in reality led by principles of political opportunism have begun, surprising as it may be, even on the issue of the Armenian Genocide to gradually subscribe to and to propagate points-of-view which bow to Turkey.
lol
GM, had you read the response of the Chair of Armenian History, Babken Harutyunyan, to the declaration, you would know that it was done without his foreknowledge and when he was out of the country see here. Furthermore, it was pushed by a minority group and we all know the actions of a few do not represent the beliefs of their colleagues. Yes, unfortunately Ayvazyan's study goes too far in its looney conclusions but the mistakes it points out are perfectly factual and its unfortunate that a proper general survey of the works of American scholars has yet to be conducted.
I give far greater credence to the scholars like Sargsyan and Harutyunyan because they had nothing better to do but to literally spent all their days at the Matenadran, reading one manuscript after another, analyzing one line of text after another. Sargsyan has published at least two books just dedicated to MK and his work has been commended by non-Armenian scholars. Malkhasyants himself spent over 65 years dedicated to the study of classical Armenian literature. Thomson aside, Toumanoff never carried out such studies (nor even bothered to learn classical Armenian), Hewsen's knowledge of it is rather negligible, and DML certainly did not. I'm simply advising others to simply take a breath and cease pushing their agendas so blindly.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
- Во-первых, независимое армянское государство не было кратковременным явлением. Если мы даже не будем углубляться в еще более древние времена, а возьмем только царства Хайасы, Урарту, Ервандидов, Арташесидов и Аршакуни, то армянская государственность к моменту падения Аршакуни в 428 г. имела почти двухтысячелетнюю историю с непрерывным функционированием важнейших государственных институтов.
Independent Armenian state was not a short time event. Even if we don't delve into more ancient times, and take only the states of Hayasa, Urartu, Yervandid, Artashesid and Arshakuni, the Armenian statehood by the time of the fall of Arshakuni in 428 had almost 2-thoushand year history with functioning of the most important state institutions.
This is from Ronald Grigor Suny:
While from one angle historical writing in Soviet Armenia can be seen as part of a general marxisant narrative of progress upward from class and imperial oppression to socialist liberation, in the post-Stalin years scholars promoted insistently national themes. Occasionally the regime would discipline the bolder voices, but Soviet Armenian historians waged an effective guerrilla war against denationalization of their history. The story of the republic of Armenia was told as a story of ethnic Armenians, with the Azerbaijanis and Kurds largely left out, just as the histories of neighboring republics were reproduced as narratives of the titular nationalities. Because the first "civilization" within the territory of the Soviet Union was considered to have been the Urartian, located in historic Armenia, the ancient roots of Armenian history were planted in the first millennium B.C. Urartian sites and objects of material culture were featured prominently in museums, and late in the Soviet period Erevantsis celebrated the 2700th anniversary of the founding of their city (originally the Urartian Erebuni or Arin Berd). Although the link between Urartu and Armenians took hold in the popular mind, most scholars believe Urartu to have been a distinct pre-Armenian culture and language and, following Herodotus, argue that the original proto-Armenians were probably a Thraco-Phryian branch of the Indo-European-speaking tribes. Nevertheless, a revisionist school of historians in the 1980s proposed that, rather than being migrants into the region, Armenians were the aboriginal inhabitants, identified with the region Hayasa in northern Armenia. For them Armenians have lived continuously on the Armenian plateau since the fourth millennium B.C., and Urartu was an Armenian state. A rather esoteric controversy over ethnogenesis soon became a weapon in the cultural wars with Azerbaijan, as Azerbaijani scholars tried to establish a pre-Turkic (earlier than the eleventh century) origin for their nation.
The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history. The holder of the chair in Armenian studies at Harvard University, Robert Thomson, had the temerity to assert that Movses Khorenatsi, whom Armenian historians had claimed as a fifth-century author, was actually an eighth-century writer with a clear political agenda that served his dynastic master. He went on to call him "an audacious, and mendacious, faker." "A mystifier of the first order," Movses "quotes sources at second hand as if he had read the original; he invents archives to lend the credence of the written word to oral tradition or to his own inventions; he rewrites Armenian history in a completely fictitious manner, as in his adaptations of Josephus.... Whoever Mo[v]ses was, he was not only learned but clever. His protestations of strict methodology were intended to deceive, to divert critical attention, and to encourage acceptance of his own tendentious narrative." Soviet Armenian scholars bitterly attacked Thomson's dating of Khorenatsi and his characterization of the author. In a sense, a foreigner had tampered with the soul of the nation.
A young historian in post-Soviet Armenia, Armen Aivazian, begins his critical review of American historiography on his country by declaring, "Armenian history is the inviolable strategic reserve [pashar] of Armenia." His views, hailed by his countrymen, provide a window into the particular form of historical reconstruction of Armenian identity and historical imagination that dominates post-Soviet Armenian historiography. His tone is militant and polemical, for his self-appointed task is to defend Armenia from its historiographical enemies. "From the point of view of Armenia's national (internal, civil, and foreign, international) security," he tells his readers, "in its consequences Western pseudo-Armenology is more harmful and dangerous than Turkish-Azerbaijani historiographical falsification because this is the real basis of the propaganda carried out on an international scale against the interests of Armenia and is also a constituent part of that propaganda."
Grandmaster 13:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Mathematician turned historian Claude Mutafian is not more authoritative than the chair of Armenian studies in Harvard Robert Thompson, or professors Robert Hewsen, Cyrill Toumanoff, encyclopedia Britannica, etc. I read Mutafian's book "The Caucasian Knot" and was not really impressed, it is a typical propaganda type publication. I'm not saying that his opinion should be excluded, but I think that the mainstream view should be presented as well. At present the article claims the fifth century dating as a fact, and ignores the fact that most of Western experts reject this dating. Grandmaster 13:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
In 1828, a French scholar, J. St Martin, who had visited Van in 1823, began to grope towards an explanation by connecting these texts with the garbled legends preserved by an Armenian chronicler, (Moses Khorenatsi), probably of the eighth century AD, according to whom the region was invaded from Assyria by a great army under its queen Semiramis who built a wondrous fortified city, citadel, and palaces at Van itself beside the lake. With this was linked a romantic myth concerning her love for a beautiful semi-divine youth named Ara, a figure of the type of the 'dying god'. It is clear that by the time of Moses of Khorene all other memory of this kingdom, once the deadly rival of Assyria itself, had been forgotten and remained so, except for these popular legends.
John Boardman, I. E. S. Edwards, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, E. Sollberger. The Cambridge ancient history. Cambridge University Press, 1982. ISBN 0521224969, 9780521224963, p. 314
Grandmaster 14:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Grandmaster (talk · contribs) has heaped up enough references now. If Marshal Bagramyan or Eupator want to defend their opinion that the question isn't settled, let them cite an academic, peer-reviewed reference post-dating 1991 (i.e. post-dating the Soviet Union). This isn't too much to ask. WP:CITE isn't optional.
Is this understood, Marshal? No more polemics about "ill-faith, shamelessly POV edits". Own up with decent references, or shut up. If you present a decent reference, I will defend its inclusion. As long as you don't, I will oppose your attempts at insinuating a "controversy" based on stale, 30-years-old patriotism. The entire comedy of Soviet Armenian Armenologists referenced above should be covered at Armenian studies. It is interesting that The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history, but this is 20th century history, while this article is supposed to deal with an 8th century work of historiography. This isn't armeniapedia, so please spare us the naive patriotism. If you want to write an {{in-universe}} article, may I suggest editing here. --dab (𒁳) 15:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't think stating that this chronicler lived in the 5th century as a fact and stubbornly reverting to that version is productive. I provided tons of reliable sources, top international experts on Armenian history, which date Movses to a much later historical period. Ignoring them and pretending that they don't even exist will not help resolve the dispute. You must admit that there's no consensus in the scholarly community to date this person to the 5th century, and that such early dating is not largely supported outside of Armenia. --Grandmaster 19:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
as was to be expected, our Armenian patriots resorted to dodging the issues and personal attacks instead of the requested sources. As long as they refuse to submit to the project goals and rules, there is nothing to discuss here. "Tread lightly" indeed, Eupator. If I was into screaming WP:CIVIL upon being attacked, you could be in trouble even now for your sexual innuendo and general misbehaviour. Now would be a good time to cite a recent (post-1991!) academic source establishing that there is an ongoing "controversy", as I requested. If you cannot do that, you would do well to step down and stop shooting the messenger. It is ridiculous to accuse Grandmaster of " flooding of the discussion page with all sorts of irrelevant quotes" when his sources were perfectly academic and perfectly to the point. So if you don't have any sources to support your position, any sources you don't happen to like are "flooding the discussion", eh? Grandmaster has established that this entire dating "controversy" belongs under historiography and nationalism. It is not a serious academic discussion. There can be a section on "In Armenian nationalism" in this artilce. We can address that as soon as you stop disrupting article improvement based on nothing but WP:IDHT. --dab (𒁳) 06:56, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Delirium and sever crud. Dbachmann, that would only highlight your racist commentary, persistent edit warring (at least three reverts) and disruptive behaviour such as the deletion of templates (infobox with the image, the historians template) as a result of a missguided belief that the project is better off without them among other things. Even Grandmaster (who incidentally set you upon this page) was only interested in applying changes to the intro regarding the alternative dating while your modifications over which you're edit warring totally mutilated a fully sourced, comprehensible article and turned it into a garbled, poorly formatted mess. It's high time to involve other parties here in order to further expose your shenanigans because celarly you're not interested in article improvement and judging by your blind reverts you're not interested in compromise either. Once again, I take no position regarding the dating issue. Your attempt to paint me as someone who is attempting to push a particular pov is utterly ridiculous and baseless.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 00:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
in light of the statement in Britannica that "Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in this work", this article should just become an "author" section in the History of Armenia (Movses Khorenatsi) article. --dab (𒁳) 14:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
the absense of interwiki links at the History article is conspicuous. I think the article on "Moses of Chorene" is usually in fact the article on his History. We can merge the two articles under this title, no problem. The claim that other works are attributed to him is shaky: such claims as we had here were completely unreferenced and Britannica states plainly that nothing is known about him other than what he states in his History. --dab (𒁳) 14:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Moses is the persona of the author of the History. Historical scholarship solidly considers this pseudepigraphy. In Armenian patriotism, Moses is regarded as a historical character. Either way, he is a character described in the History and should be discussed as such. All serious encyclopedias discuss the Moses of Chorene biography together with the History, and state openly that the Moses biography is incompatible with the origin of the work itself. For crying out loud, even the 1915(!) Catholic Encyclopedia has
And the 1911(!) Britannica has
by presenting this as "controversial" is going back before the standard of scholarship as of the 1910s. Way to go for an encyclopedia project of the 2000s, but after all "anyone can edit" includes those of us with our heads stuck firmly in 19th century nationalist fantasy. --dab (𒁳) 07:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
More on Geography from Hewsen:
The general neglect of Ananias is not surprising. Until recently only his geography was available in a Western language, and for three hundred years this work was mistakenly attributed to another Armenian writer, Moses of Xoren.3
3 Moses of Xoren (Arm: Movses Xorenac'i) was an author of the 5th century to whom is also attributed a History of Armenia. Internal evidence reveals both the Geography and the History to have been written much later, the Geography in the 7th century and the History in, probably, the late 8th. For the dating of the History see C. Toumanoff, Studies in Christian Caucasian History (Washington: Georgetown Univ. Press, 1963). For the Geography see Joseph Marquart, Eransahr nach der Geographie des Pseudo-Moses Xorenac'i (Berlin: Weidmannsche, 1901).
Robert H. Hewsen. Science in Seventh-Century Armenia: Ananias of Shirak. Isis, Vol. 59, No. 1 (Spring, 1968), pp. 32-45
Once more mates, I find myself drawn in by these fascinating, though I have to admit seemingly frequent, debates that are taking place on Wikipedia. As I introduced myself on Ibrahim Khalil page, I hope no one will mind an opinion of an uninvolved third party contributor. As a student of the new school of Armenian studies, I think it’s relevant to explain the real issues. What I have learned from my research is that Western Armenology has rendered the need to grasp Armenian language to study Armenian history as optional. That's what the whole debate is centered round. And the motivations of those criticising the conventional school of Armenian studies are really about this. This is why scholars like Thomson (a fellow Brit) are criticised. In his case, he essentially deemed the need to read classical Armenian manuscripts nearly unnecessary. Even if unintentional, the result of his work was to relay those classical authors to secondary positions. There are very few if any schools of other languages which treat, as optional, the grasp and reading of the manuscripts of the language of the authors, of which culture is the one which is being studied.
We must make something patently clear: we are not dealing with Soviet Historiography. During the Soviet times Armenian scholars’s treatment of the subject had more to do with internal matters than Soviet material. In fact, materials published in those years in Armenia are, very admirably, only mildly influenced by the Soviet school in comparison to other fields. The problem is rather the isolation of years of communism of the Eastern and Western schools of Armenian study. This has harmed the field very much, as both sides have made valuable contributions. I had the opportunity last summer to visit Turkey (the Istanbul patriarchate archives), Georgia (Tbilisi) and Armenia and, to my very surprise, relevant research materiel from private and public collections from Armenia are not well known. We should not surprise ourselves of the conflict produced by decades of separation.
I'm presently in California conducting research and those manuscripts kept in Armenia are being missed and it is uncontestable that Armenian (from Armenia, that is) have a level of expertise which is unparalleled in the 'school of Armenian studies' over here. I've been learning classical Armenian for several years, which, as any expert will know, is nothing; and have been learning modern (eastern) Armenian for the last two years. I guess this is more than average when compared to most from the so-called school. In Armenia, modern Armenian is what they are born with and historian of Armenian studies learns classical Armenian even prior to his receiving of his undergraduate degree.
Coming to what is being discussed here: I think the most relevant criticism is probably those directed against Thomson who often has been carelessly easy to jump to conclusions. To explain the problem surrounding his works, his translation and notes regarding the Armenian historian Agathangelos, I think, can sum up pretty much the problem I and others had with several of his works. Thomson both in some of his inaccurate translations and non-inclusion of elements against his position has probably done some damage to the credibility of those scholars by insinuating that anything relevant and accurate described were copies of Greek works.
In the case of Agathangelos, as was at least a century since his work has been attested to have been written in Armenian first, Thomson did everything but to deny that, by making implicit remarks and his insinuations which imply Greek influence to impossible extremes. This renders his claim as if the original was indeed Greek. His exclusion of all the relevant other versions is a testimony of that. Winkler (1979) for example mentions the two Georgian versions, the Arabic (which is a more accurate version than the Greek one he uses) and another more accurate Greek version predating the one he uses. Thomson even claims that the Greek manuscript 'Orchid no. 4' follows 'Vita Gregorii', which of course is inaccurate. He also totally ignores Esteves Pereira’s edited Ethiopian version 'Bulletim da Sociedade de Geographia de Lisboa', 19 (1901). Van Esbroeck even discovered a Syriac version of the manuscript, which there is no mention of in his bibliography.
Where Thomson fails even more, is his exclusion of what he should have known, of manuscripts predating the edition of 1909 he has used. Lang (1978) for instance reports his failure to use such materials. More worth mentioning is the Agathangelos palimpsest belonging to the Mekhitarist Fathers in Vienna predating the version he used for three centuries. There was indeed no reason for Thomson to not have used them as on the bases of lack of access, the palimpsest was published in 1911 and even an edition published in 1976 existed. Nothing is said also about Paris codex No. 112 of the Bibliothèque National, dating to the thirteenth century. Thomson also provides notes of historical nature even for elementary facts for those his work is destined to; for instance that Iberians were the ancient Georgians. I don't know of any well versed historian writing such a specialised work, who would provide such notes for such elementary information the reader should know obviously about.
Comming to his translation, Lang (1978) touches on this by providing some mistranslations (Thomson even realises it does not make sense, but blames the Armenian text, claiming it to be corrupted), when the real reason behind his mistranslations lies in his ignorance of historical context, other relevant texts, expressions and of his erroneous belief that everything is fundamentally Greek influenced, as so his mistaken belief of some words being etymologically Greek. Winkler (1979) in his review does make few corrections, by relating the ignored Syriac influence, which of course changes the meaning of quite a few words and also to the often ignored Iranian influence, which Thomson even finds problematic by his own admission but does not give due weight regardless. Garsoian (1979) does see the problem, when she writes: 'Such an undertaking might have better illuminated the complex fifth-century Irano-Greek world in which the surviving Armenian Agat'angelos cycle was compiled.' But, unfortunately, she's too light and naive in not really seeing the problem behind such a careless study.
Thus, Thomson has maintained this line, of ignoring context in his translations, and this, decades later, is unjustifiable. Hewitt (1998) provides some mistranslations of Georgian Chronicles with Armenian Adaptations and I was not surprised to find that here too, Thomson has the habit to change versions without informing readers. In that particular case it was Q'aukhchishvili's main text, which Thomson has used variants without indicating this. It's unprofessional to change versions so that it fits what the translator believes to be accurately translatable. This was done often in the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, but it is not really considered to be proper conduct anymore, at least without providing a note to that effect and why it was done so.
Thomson’s carelessness is not limited to just a few, but several important works, his translation of 'Elishe: History of Vardan and the Armenian War' is one more such case. In his over fifty pages long introduction he needlessly wastes his time having to remind us over and over again that Elishe was not an eyewitness of the events described. As Lang (1983) puts it, on top of that he exaggerates and goes to extreme lengths to deprive Elishe of any originality of style or subject matter, and from Lang's words: 'to detect everywhere self-conscious citations of the Holy Scriptues or the Apocrypha.' But to add insult to injury, here too, he mistranslates on a couple of occasions. I can go on, but would prefer not to.
In the case of Khorenatsi, delving into it is much more complex, because of the historical context which is quite complex. But to say the least, Thomson never adequately answered one important question which relate to Khorenatsi self representation in his own work. Those who write such texts in their given period do so without knowledge of the place their work will have in history. Khorenatsi in great lengths describes himself in his own work, and the incidences which he claims having been implicated in. If he was an author of much a later year, it's then a role playing work, the purpose of the role playing being unknown given the reasons he provides for which he wrote 'The History'. It could only make sense for us over a millennium later, why he did it, knowing about the current implications. But we know now of a couple of other attempts in writing an Armenian History, including predating his. So his ulterior motives in engaging in this sort of game, if he really did so, remains unknown to me and am sure to many others in the field. And Thomson never really came up with any answers about this central point. His thesis became even more unconvincing when one considers the other works which were attributed to him. Thomson also ignores that from the fifth to the seventh (and even eight and beginning of ninth) centuries several events have been repeating themselves and some of the arguments he provides could have been answered by this alone. More so, is that it is a common practice to retouch works and update, censure and even repair them. My review above of Agathangelos’s work is one major example of this, with the more original versions being different than the newer ones. There are different Armenian versions, at least two different Greek versions, so even for the same languages. Besides, even Thomson engaged himself with such a review by grammatically 'correcting' the Armenian version he provides.
Of course some of the arguments provided, attesting to the fact that he wrote his work later, are strong, but the credit given to Thomson is exaggerated. Lang (1979) is used in this article, but his review of the work is not given enough weight since he provide the main arguments in regard to Khorenatsi for which Thomson was strongly criticised. Six out of nine of the paragraphs of Lang (1979) are critical of Thomson's work. I agree with the former when he writes: 'T'homson finds little to admire in the work of Moses Khorenats'i,...' Those relevant points and Thomson dismissal’s of Khorenatsi does deserve a place in the article since this dismissal influenced several other scholars until the 1990's, when scholars finally realised Khorenatsi's important place in Armenian history, regardless of when he was born.
One must also take into consideration that sources predating the 1920s are unacceptable on the grounds because they rejected Movses' reliability as a historical source. When archaeological studies were later conducted, much of Movses' information was validated, such as Artaxias I's border markers. This information was not available to A. Carrière, Geltzer, Khalatiants, Gutschmidt, etc. (the so-called hyper-critics). Furthermore, the reason this criticism was raised was because it was a product of its time: as the nascent study of history was formulated in the 19th century and 20th century, many scholars began to cast doubt upon ancient historians, such as the venerable ‘father of history’, Herodotus, and Thucydides. Toumanoff, for a reason I ignore, have not paid as much attention to this important element when using Carrière. Mr. Dab provides Britannica, (but I assume the author is Suny) which lists no author and Mr. David M. Lang contradicts himself when he says that Movses did not let on more info because that would expose his story; if so, then how is it that he inserted anachronisms which clearly would have exposed him in the first place? If we're going to give such due weight to Britannica, we might just as well give the same weight to it in writing the Armenian genocide entry regardless of the fact that Britannica contradicts all other major encyclopedias there. In the case of Khorenatsi, there remains discrepancies between works, the last time I have checked the 'Reader's encyclopedia of Eastern European literature', it was still claiming Movses’ birth and death dates from 390-450.
These are only the glimpse of the issues, but there are far more problems in the 'school of Armenian studies'. For example, when Suny (a political scientist originally, not a historian) covers every possible era (particular periods could be understandable, even a political scientist could specialise in a particular period in history). Suny is in fact everywhere, for example criticising Dadrian’s (the indefatigable genocide scholar) thesis of a socially drawn effect of the series of excused crime. Suny is also there writing about Georgia and Azerbaijan, with a switched expertise. Suny even present himself as if being knowledgeable of classical Armenian. I think you can get the picture. When scholars of a particular school specialises in 'everything' this begs the question, on whatever the school has enough material to work on, so that one scholar is assigned a particular era, subject or whatever. In Armenia, that's what I saw and I think the 'school' would benefit in forming its expertise in specific fields. Because the way things work in this field, some scholars are given too much power. Suny, for instance, writes most of the materials in Britannica and Encarta regardless of the periods, and this I believe is a major problem, especially when using it as a source.
I can't fail to realise the timing of this conflict here. It corresponds with those students who have voiced their opinion and even recorded an offending message; I even had a colleague emailing me the link of a disturbing and slanderous YouTube video. Anyway, I'm sorry my reply has ended up becoming this long but I hope my points will be taken into consideration during the discussions.
Addenda: The allusion to the moral revert in my title was in support of Mr. MarshallBagramyan. The language and adjectives used by Dab is, to say the the very least, disturbing and contains hints of racism. Undoing nearly the totality of someone's work without prior engagement in more minor changes followed by discussions is inexcusable knowing the heated discussion this article has generated. The only reason I did not revert is because the interaction between users has rapidly turned it into a battlefield. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Diamond Apex (talk • contribs) 06:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Unlike the general run of Armenian historians, Moses Khorenats'i is also a mythmaker, a story teller of great talent. This is partly why he makes such an appeal to Armenian national pride. Obviously some of his tall stories have to be taken with the proverbial 'grain of salt'.
Thomson finds little to admire in the work of Moses Khorenats'i, whom he censures for his lapses in chronology, his attempts at mystification, and general failure to live up to the standards of a Harvard Ph.D. candidate. References by Moses to Josephus are 'distorted' and 'attended by suspicious circumstances' (p. 26). Moses' account of fourth century Armenia is 'tendentious' (p. 46) - still worse - 'Moses is an audacious and mendacious faker' (p. 58). Thomson could obviously have written a better history of Armenia himself.
Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.
Thank you for your reply, but please know it’s not necessary to quote me their reviews (as from my answer above, I have already read those and am informed of their opinions but just to make a correction, six out of nine paragraphs go far beyond being a bit judgmental). Coming to the aforementioned consensus, as Mr. Sardur stated, there is no such general opinion as you (and quite rudely, Mr. Dbachmann) contend. Take the example of Anania of Shirak. There are many real problems with the attribution of 'Geography' to Anania, and even those who adhere to this position know about it. Hewsen himself admits to holding this position. But Greppin (1995), for instance, brings one of the strongest arguments against it, which is the persistent theme that 'Geography' was written before the catastrophic arrival of the Moslem Arabs.
Hewsen does provide some possible explanations, which Greppin does not find wholly satisfying. In the West, more precise studies of the concepts, conceptions and beliefs of the writers were never really conducted. You provided the link to the Haroutunian text (which I highly recommend you read), particularly the section dealing with Anania’s beliefs on the shape of Earth, its size, and so on and so forth, and those contradicting with the views in 'Geography.' Thus, you see, the matter is far from being resolved. In 1970, Lang (1970) pointed to the fact that many scholars adhered to the position that 'Geography' was neither written by Anania nor Khorenatsi –the debate is still ongoing. At hand are many problems, and there are similar elements found in both Geography and Khorenatsi.
Some scholars, realising this, have advanced that Khorenatsi might have been inspired by Geography, so Khorenatsi was a later scholar. But the new trend seems to be different; Smith (2006) for instance does echo what seems to be a recent tendency: he place Khorenatsi to the fifth century and advances Anania as being the author of Geography but having been inspired by Khorenatsi. Smith is well aware of Thomson’s criticism, for he uses Thomsons annotated translation and notes in his references. In fact, in a previous paper (2004) he actually placed Khorenatsi in the eight century using the very same Thomson.
This is unremarkable, though, since there have been dozens of publications since Thomson which have clarified several serious misconceptions. We can just bring out the one example of Julius Africanus's Chronicle in Khorenatsi's work, one of Thomson’s fighting horses in the text: we understand now with the help of brilliant scholars like Topchyan (2005, 2006) that the Chronicle controversy resulted most probably from a misconception due to misunderstanding of some classical Armenian expressions. --The Diamond Apex (talk) 14:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I have learned that whenever my comments are discussed in terms of being "offensive" they are straight to the point. If there was something wrong factually with what I said, people would not need to try and find something to denounce in my tone or my vocabulary or my callous disrespect for the sacred feelings of patriotism cherished in the heart of every upright Armenian.
See WP:SPADE. It is not offensive to call nationalist fringecruft for what it is. I am delighted to discuss nationalist fringecruft, but this will need to take place in articles about nationalism. I have already suggested we add a section discussing the role of Moses in Armenian nationalism. In such a discussion, Armenian nationalist publications are the primary sources, and our quotable secondary sources will be studies of nationalism, such as the Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations one provided by Grandmaster. This is exactly the kind of references we are looking for. If Eupator can cite another scholar criticizing the conclusions of Suny I would be delighted to see them. Producing such would at least be more productive than whining about the offensiveness detected by some Wikipedians in the tone of voice used by Dbachmann when he pointed out that Wikipedia isn't a patriotic project.
Since The Diamond Apex seems to know his way around this topic, let me repeat that I have absolutely no opinion on the matter, and that if he can produce an academic source stating that while the question was regarded as settled in 1970, it has been re-opened for serious consideration since, let him present it and I will be ever so glad to defend its inclusion. --dab (𒁳) 15:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Moses identified himself as a pupil of Mastoc'. However, modern scholars have suggested that Moses flourished in the eighth century rather than the fifth century, based on internal evidence in his History.
Robert Benedetto, James O. Duke. The New Westminster Dictionary of Church History. Westminster John Knox Press, 2008. ISBN 0664224164, 9780664224165, p. 448
...Well that was a rhetorical question...sorry, what I meant was that they might as well have given the pen to Toumanoff or Thomson and let them write his entry.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I see this reference has cropped up in the literature section, without the article making use of it. According to the introduction:
According to The Diamond Apex:
what exactly does this mean? There is no indication either in the blurb nor in The Diamond Apex' statement that this in any way implies the re-opening of this "controversy". If I am mistaken, and Topchyan does in fact claim the thing dates to the 5th century, correct me. If he doesn't, please avoid waving around references that do not actually support the claim made. I will be happy to have our attention turn from this silly "controversy" to actual philology of the work under discussion. Topchyan would seem to be an excellent reference for that. Let's hear to which "over-simplified opinions" he is adding complexity. So far, this article doesn't even list the Greek sources of the History, let alone "over-simplified opinions" associated with them. If anyone is interested in building this article as opposed to coatracking about Armenian patriotism, it may be an excellent idea to summarize Topchyan's conclusions about the sources available to Movses.
The "controversy" alluded to by Topchyan consists of "varied and often diametrically opposed views; scholars ended up with either an outright denial of the historiographic value of Movses' book or unreserved acceptance of everything he says" While we have met the latter position, especially on this talkpage, the article as it stands is completely unaware of any "outright denial of the historiographic value of Movses' book". I would be interested in references to that position. Obviously this isn't the dating "controversy", since saying that Movses wrote 250 years later than he claimed he did doesn't amount to "outright denial of historiographic value". I would be interested in who was supposed to take the position so summarized by Topchyan, as in every account of the work I have seen, it is characterized as of the utmost importance to early Armenian history. --dab (𒁳) 15:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
From what I see, the most prominent supporters of the 5th century dating are the authors of the following book:
Agop Jack Hacikyan, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, Nourhan Ouzounian. The heritage of Armenian literature. Vol.1: From the oral tradition to the golden age. Wayne State University Press, 2005. ISBN 0814328156, 9780814328156
But it should also be noted that they say in the preface:
It should be emphasized, however, that The Heritage of Armenian Literature is not intended, nor does it claim, to break new ground in scholarly analysis of the works it contains. The editors have drawn on the work of many excellent scholars in the field — whose works, it is hoped, may gain wider audience among those who read and enjoy this anthology — but their only concern has been to provide the reader with sufficient orientation in time and ethos that his or her reading, enjoyment, and appreciation of the selections will be enhanced.
Their vision of the issue can be found here: , pp 305 - 306. They say that "Today much of this criticism has been rejected", but also that "However, the Khorenatsi controversy is by no means over". I personally don't see that the criticism has been rejected, since most leading experts date Movses to 8 - 9th century. The opinion of the authors of this book appears to be a minority view. Grandmaster 05:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
With regard to Topchyan. His assertions are being criticized by other scholars. In particular, Topchyan's attempts at ascribing some of the material in Khorenatsi to the 3rd century historian Sextus Julius Africanus are rejected, see:
In his History of Armenia, Moses of Chorene134 claims to use Africanus as a source for a potentially long text, but the value of this attribution is dubious. In his second book, Moses refers to the fifth book of the Chronographiae as the main source for the history of the Armenian kings. Africanus is supposed to have based his knowledge of Armenian history on the archives of Edessa, but critical research now mostly rejects this.135 Attempts at ascribing at least part of the material to Africanus via the use of Greek parallel texts remain unconvincing.136 This does not exclude the possibility that Moses might have had some contact with the transmission of the Chronographiae, but at present this remains totally uncertain and no concrete fragment can be ascribed (beyond the testimonium in T88).
134 The work purports to be written at the beginning of the reign of Sahak Bagratuni (482). Scholarly debate has proposed dates which vary from the late 5th to the 9th century; possibly, a dating in the 7th/8th cent, would be the most plausible, see Mahe 1993, 88-91.
135 See e.g. Thomson 1978,12f; Traina 1991,61-63. The information in Moses that is allegedly taken from Africanus can mostly be traced back to other sources, Mahe 1993,66-68.
136 Topchyan 2001 has argued that large parts of Moses' book 2 are taken from Africanus. This has been rightly criticized by Terian 2001/02, esp. 113, n.40. Topchyan has reacted to the criticism in his recent monograph (Topchyan 2006), where he presents the thesis in a moderate form.
Sextus Julius Africanus, Martin Wallraff, Umberto Roberto, Karl Pinggéra, William Adler. Chronographiae: the extant fragments. Walter de Gruyter, 2007. ISBN 3110194937, 9783110194937, page XLIX
Also, same book, page 261:
The translation is taken from Thomson 1978, 145f. For Africanus' well-documented connection with the Edessene court see his Cesti 1,20, which describes his experiences in the court of Abgar VIII (176-213), also F29 (on the preservation of Jacobs tent in Edessa). On the basis of this text it has been claimed that much of the following material in Moses comes from Africanus (Topchyan 2001). However, this cannot be proved and the hypothesis has been rightly criticized (Terian 2001/02). The material of Moses should be considered only where Greek parallels are available (eg F89), see also Topchyan 2006 and Wallraff 2006,49f.
This is the source that criticizes Topchyan, and which the authors of the aforementioned book agree with:
Terian, Abraham, Xorenac'i and Eastern Historiography of the Hellenistic Period, REArm 28, 2001/02, 101-141.
I have no access to it.
Grandmaster 06:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, from the above quote it seems that Mahe finds the 7th/8th century dating to be the most plausible, but since no quotes from Mahe have been provided, it is hard to make any conclusion with regard to what Mahe actually says. Grandmaster 06:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Also of interest is that another prominent expert in Armenian studies, Charles Dowsett, criticized an author, who stated the 5th century dating of Movses as a fact:
The author is, of course, quite at liberty to think Movses Xorenaci a fifth-century author, but the non-specialist reader might benefit from a reference to divergent views, listed for example in A. O. Sarkissian, JAOS, LX, 1, 1940; it is a pity that for quotations from this author the 1736 edition of the Whiston (not Whinston) brothers was used rather than the Tiflis critical edition of 1913, but this was no doubt more from necessity than by choice.
C. J. F. Dowsett. Reviewed work(s): Altarmenische Grammatik by Hans Jensen. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 23, No. 2 (1960), pp. 403-404
Grandmaster 06:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Answer to Grandmaster (to Grandmaster 05:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC))
If that’s supposed to be taken as an indication of incompetence or lack of credibility, it’s unconvincing. Grandmaster, I assume you believe that what I have been writing is inaccurate, as if I have motive to do so. I have provided you Smith, and in my characteristically long reply you will see an encyclopedia being used which is more specific than Britannica. Listed below is a bibliography detailing more than the number of recent publications you have provided placing Khorenatsi in the fifth century (published in the 1990s and 2000s) The publishers are not provided; however, I have compiled this short list to show you that you are misleading the rest of these editors when you claim a consensus exists in Western academia.
p.145
Do you believe that we can now discard sources such as the Cambridge History of Iran with the drop of a hat? As I have already indicated, those who are the strongest adherents of the position against the fifth century, admit, too, that this subject is far from being settled. In Robert W. Thomson’s latest work (1999) he himself admits that even though he claims that he presents the best explanation is to place Khorenatsi in the eight century, The dating of Khorenats'i remains highly disputed,... (Emphasis added). Hewsen too, in his Armenia: A historical atlas (2001) remark he's unsure, check p. 7, dates uncertain.
I don't see the relevancy of either of the links you have provided us with. How can their expertise be compared to scholars such as Aram Topchyan, who completed his fellowship at Hebrew University and specialises in Khorenatsi’s studies. If you read my long reply you would have seen that one of my main points was that in Armenia they form experts and scholars in specific fields. In the West, they form scholars on Plato or other Greek scholars, but there are no such specialists in the field of Armenian studies. This specialisation is specific to Armenia and only after the fall of the Soviet Union has this concept been transplanted to the West.
I can also only caution you to be careful, at least here, because I’ve noticed that you have had the tendency to select works in such a way that the reader, and to an extent some of the editors, might think that there is such a consensus and that this issue can be likened to a struggle between Armenia(n) and the West, a dangerous notion which has allowed these heated discussions to reach xenophobic proportions.
Don't forget that my only claim over here was that there was no such consensus and I have just to find several notable works to show you this. On the other hand you and Mr. Dbachmann, since you both claim that there is such a consensus in the West, should be advised to check works referring to Khorenatsi and then reach that conclusion. You have done some research (as shown from the references you came up with), but it’s rather peculiar that you did not find it worth mentioning a considerable number if relevant works have placed Khorenatsi in the fifth century. You must realise that we are dealing with a source from over a millennium ago, and the level of evidence required from Khorenatsi is not the same, as many scholars take into account the limited access to material.
I see, for example, that you questioned that the original text of Agathangelos writing of ‘History of Armeni’a in Armenian prior to the writing of the Greek version (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agathangelos&action=history) Why are you questioning a statement that was, at least to my knowledge, never in dispute? David M. Lang (1970) writes that agreement on his identity and writings have existed for at least a century, and neither Thomson nor any scholars have questioned this. Why should any material be provided when every single published work from the 19th, 20th, 21th centuries claim him to be an Armenian? It's pushing the argument a tad bit too far; you might as well attach citation tags on articles which claim that the sky is blue or say that the Pope is Catholic.
As for your accusation of me making a personal attack, I can only sum up what has been going on here in a few words: whereas I have written here two thousand or so words directly concerning the material being used in article, Dbachmann has gone to extraordinary lengths to generalise the beliefs and attitudes of users. I will simply pretend that I never read your comments.
Answer to Paul (to Paul B (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC))
Hi Paul, I provided those names in the sense that anyone who is familiar with the topic will have little difficulty recognizing them. Those who know who Suny and others (which I assumed since Grandmaster quoted them) should know that it's about Adam T. Smith, a professor from the department of Anthropology at the University of Chicago who specialises in ancient Armenian history. I don't know of any other Smith having published anything that year about such topics. You can access his website here: http://home.uchicago.edu/~atsmith/ The paper in question is: 'Prometheus Unbound: Southern Caucasia in Prehistory' – it was published in the Journal of World Prehistory, Volume 19, Number 4, December 2005 , pp. 229-279. The relevant quote is: 'In the fifth century A.D., the historian Moses Khorenats’i lent his narrative of Armenian national formation a sense of place by weaving myth and history into the major ruins that dot the landscape of the Armenian Highland (see Thomson [1978] for a discussion of the considerable controversy that surrounds the dating of Khorenats’i’s text).' p. 234. It will be my pleasure to send you the page. You see when I provided those names and the dates, I assumed those readers would recognize them and both Grandmaster and Dab from their edits in the article here have shown they know enough ofthe subject to know who the principle actors are. So when you say, 'is an awful lot of assertion with almost no clear verifiable content' you should take a closer look at the authors and dates mentioned and assume that I read them here. As for your comment in quoting me, no, I was not referring to Topchyan’s comment on page 5, but to a heated debate in the 1990s between some scholars after a lecture (which I was present at). Please forgive me for presenting an esoteric atmosphere when I make these edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Diamond Apex (talk • contribs) 06:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Moses Xorenaci is one of the most difficult sources to handle, being a late compiler (probably of the 9th century), but here and there he gives interesting details, which cannot be mere invention, and above all he provides us with a geographical survey of the administrative divisions of Sasanian Iran.
The Cambridge history of Iran. Chapter 37. G. Widengren. Sources of Parthian and Sasanian history, p. 1275. Cambridge University Press, 1968. ISBN 0521246938, 9780521246934
Thanks for those links.
True, it is difficult, as a student in Armenian studies, I can attest to that. The reason why we are seeing 7th, 8th, 9th centuries in many sources is, with little exaggeration, largely because of Thomson (and to a lesser extent some Toumanoff, who influenced Hewsen greatly). His work(s) in the past 30 years have not virtually not changed (in terms of their positions), and because he comes from very reputable institutions (Harvard, Oxford) and because his works are the most accessible to Western scholars, they have utilised him to great effect. Armenian scholars during the Soviet era may have published works in Russian but their works remain inaccessible because of a language barrier.
I must stress to you and especially the other sceptical editors that, based on my readings of certain works (I have skimmed through Sarkisian's 'Chronological Structure'), the disparagement of scholars from a certain country (with such colourful wording as 'nationalists') is highly unwarranted. Geography is simply a ruse used by some to sow discord when there really isn't. I've read dozens of book reviews from Armenian journals of Western publication but the language used in them is completely cordial and filled with appreciation and understanding, even for Thomson (Suny's quoted text in the article is thus very dishonest; unfortunately, Mr. Suny, a scholar on the Soviet Union and Georgia, got involved in Armenian studies very late, say around the mid-1980s)
Let's not forget that there many a great detractors of the king of history himself, Herodotus, even today, and yet his article lacks the shrillness present in this one. Anyways, the wording you have suggested is an improvement to what we currently are working with but I will withold my opinion (as well as any of my suggestions) until the very end, just to hear the other contributors' comments. --The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
The Armenian Philo was known to Moses of Khoren, who used to be assigned to the mid-fifth century. Considerable doubt has been thrown on this dating, most scholars now maintaining that Moses of Khoren must be assigned to the eighth or ninth century.
Joseph P. Smith. St. Irenaeus: Proof of the Apostolic Preaching. The Newman Press, 1952. ISBN 0809102641, 9780809102648, p. 8
The first literary exposition, though not the first attestation, of Armenian national identity is that of Moses of Khoren, relatively late, in the eighth century AD.
Anne Elizabeth Redgate. The Armenians. Wiley-Blackwell, 2000. ISBN 0631220372, 9780631220374, p. 23
Gagik Sargsyan, a leading scholar and biographer of Movses, as well as other scholars admonished Thomson for anachronistic "hypercriticism" and for stubbornly rehashing and "even exaggerating the statements once put forward" by the late 19th and early 20th century scholars, and in particular, those of Grigor Khalatyants (1858-1912).[21] Sargsyan noted that Thomson, in condemning Movses' failure to mention his sources, ignored the fact that "an antique or medieval author may have had his own rules of mentioning the sources distinct from the rules of modern scientific ethics."[22] Thomson's allegation of Movses' supposed falsification of sources was also countered by Sargsyan, who contended that Thomson was "treating a medieval author with the standards of modern scientific ethics" and that numerous classical Greek historians engaged in the same practice.
Grandmaster again hammering a user with all those policies as he does best. It's obvious that the requesting of fact on Agathangelos article was a bad faithed move. Grandmaster is cherry picking here with all the quotations he finds on Google Books about Khorenatsi when just a Google Book search about Agathangelos would have indicated that all the works having been published in over a century claims him to be an Armenian for the very reason that the original texts were in Armenian. I guess Grandmaster was lazy here too before throwing a fact check for information that was not ever doubted. The Diamond Apex wrote in his long reply: I can't fail to realise the timing of this conflict here. It corresponds with those students who have voiced their opinion and even recorded an offending message; I even had a colleague emailing me the link of a disturbing and slanderous YouTube video. Of course there is a timing, it was after all Grandmaster who started the conflict with his edits coinciding with the off-wiki conflict. See here another recent and documented off-wiki conflict being brought on Wikipedia. The adding of that fact check is very much similar to all those edit wars engaged in the past by Adil Baguirov questioning the Armenianess of Armenian historic figures.
Check also how he is maintaining the debate with The Diamond Apex, The Diamond Apex claims there is no such consensus, he even quotes from Thomson's recent work by he is as usual drawn in a circular discussion by Grandmaster. Grandmaster even refers to Shnirelman, who is only a credible source when he criticizes Armenian nationalism, where he is much harsher in criticizing the Azeri one. See here Shnirelman exposing the position which Grandmaster and other users have been pushing on Wikipedia, compare for example what Shnirelman says about the Church_of_Caucasian_Albania created by Parishan,using mostly a single source which Shnirelman questions strongly, and all the rest of secondary sources using that same source. Grandmaster find that nationalist driven created article like a good article. Where is Dab when we really need him..., he is gladly invited on the Church_of_Caucasian_Albania article and other such nationalistic creations.
To The Diamond Apex, if you are going to discuss with Paul and Dab do so, but as you have seen by now, a discussion with Grandmaster will only end up in who can quote most game without much substance. You have shown that there is no such consensus, which was the most important element in your replies, mission accomplished, I advise you to cut it there. - Fedayee (talk) 04:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
It’s heartening to find that the conversation has still not dried up after the discussionless and senseless revert wars of last week. I have tried to incorporate as much of the arguments presented by modern scholars but have removed the preposterous red herring section on the reception of Thomson’s edition. I trimmed some terms in the bio which ad nauseum remind the reader that Movses' bio details stem solely from his bok – a clearly mistaken assertion because other Armenian historians like Kirakos Gandzaketsi, Stepanos Orbelian and Samuel of Ani add bits and pieces. Like The Diamond Apex noted above, the two cited works, LTP and P. Hovhannisyan note numerous times in the beginnings of the reviews their appreciation for Thomson’s undertaking but discuss and critique the viewpoints found in his introduction and the rest of the text. Contrary to RGS, the language and critiques were cordial in nature and it’s sad and dishonest that some are trying to substitute Ayvazyan’s wording for theirs.
I think the lead still requires some refining and the overall body of the article is welcome to suggestions, so long as last’s week usual brouhaha and overzealous and foaming-at-the-mouth edits are left out of it and everything is done in a civilized (need I even mention the exclusion of insults and condescending language?) manner.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
From what I see, as result of the latest edits all the info about the 5th century dating not being taken seriuosly by most scholars is gone, 5th century is again claimed as a fact, etc. So what was the point of all this discussion, if you just returned the article to its previous state?--Grandmaster 05:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I rolled back edits by Marshall. You cannot present the 5th century dating as a fact, when it is disputed by most authoritative historians. You should present the positions according to their weight, the majority view is that he lived later than the 5th century, and the minority view is that he lived in the 5th. Please take this into account when editing the article. --Grandmaster 05:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.
David M. Lang. Reviewed work(s): "Moses Khorenats'i": History of the Armenians by Robert W. Thomson. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 42, No. 3 (1979), pp. 574-575
Grandmaster, you have made several false statements such as "They just returned the article to its original state" or that info about later dating has been removed. Evidently both are false. Please explain yourself promptly.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 16:03, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
The traditional 5th century dating of Moses of Chorene was called into question for a number of reasons. Thus, though it has traditionally been assumed that Moses of Chorene wrote in the fifth century, yet the earliest reference to his work is made by John Catholicos in his History of Armenia, a work written in the third decade of the tenth century.[12] In addition, Moses of Chorene uses sources not available in Armenian at that time, and refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries.[13] Also, according to Robert Thomson, Moses of Chorene "alters many of his Armenian sources in a tendentious manner in order to extol his patrons, the Bagratuni family, who gained preeminence in the eighth century".[14]
The sorry excuse for an article that you blindly reverted to was a version which neither you nor Dab ever attempted to come to a compromise with. It was heavily slanted toward one side and despite all the other users' protests on this talk page, unilateral edits were made and consensus was dismissed. No one agreed to add that irrelevant section about Armenian nationalism, strewn with its ugly adjectives, myths on "fierce criticism", and character assassination and misattribution (V. Nersissian is a Soviet scholar?), and supported by the writings of a political scientist who is considered a newbie when it comes Armenian studies. The IPA pronunciation was removed, Conybeare's article was given in the wrong journal, the birth and death locations were removed, etc. See Hachikyan et al. on the refutation section (pp. 305-306).
And, if anything, I added reasons as to why the fifth century dating was considered untenable (the four Armenias, the Persian advances) but we're not going to give undue weight to its critics. Rather than discussing your edits, you have done nothing to inch forward toward a consensus.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I didn't claim it as a fact; I simply sourced it and placed it in the lead and even inserted in the lead (and the infobox) the statement that many scholars dispute it. Even in the "Dab version" Movses' date and death dates were given, although that section was POV-ridden. Please scroll up and see that I as well as other editors more than amenable to discussing these edits so long as the discussion is done in a civilized manner and sans Dab's demagoguery.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
When the dust settles, it would be nice to see more info about Mar-Abas-Katina, the Edessan library, the sources, Artaxian stelles etc. But I geuss all of that can fit into the actual book's article.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Please add {{Wikisource1911Enc}} to the article. Thanks. Grandmaster 07:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I created a table with the names of the most prominent supporters of either dating. I did not include there just any names, only more or less notable experts in the field of Armenian studies. If we add sources that occasionally mentioned the dating, the list will be much bigger. Feel free to add anyone you deem necessary. Grandmaster 13:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Sources in support of 5t ct dating | Sources in support of later dating |
---|---|
Adam T. Smith | Robert H. Hewsen |
Stepan Malkhasyants | Cyril Toumanoff |
Agop Jack Hacikyan, et al | Robert W. Thomson |
Aram Topchyan | David M. Lang |
Gagik Sarkisyan | C. J. F. Dowsett |
Boris Piotrovsky | Anne Elizabeth Redgate |
Ronald Grigor Suny | |
Great Soviet Encyclopedia | Britannica |
Krugosvet cyclopedia | The New Westminster Dictionary of Church History |
Sources in support of 5t ct dating | Sources that say the issue is disputed/uncertain/author not explicit | Sources in support of later dating |
---|---|---|
Adam T. Smith | Robert H. Hewsen (Armenia: A Historical Atlas, 2001, p. 7) | |
Stepan Malkhasyants | James R. Russell | Cyril Toumanoff |
Agop Jack Hacikyan, et al | Robert W. Thomson | Robert W. Thomson |
Aram Topchyan | David M. Lang | |
Gagik Sarkisyan | C. J. F. Dowsett | |
Boris Piotrovsky | Nina G. Garsoian | Anne Elizabeth Redgate |
Levon Ter-Petrosyan | ||
Vrej Nersessian | ||
Petros Hovhannisyan | ||
Edward Gulbekian ("The Attitude to War in 'The Epic of Sasoun'", Folklore, Vol. 95, No. 1 (1984), p. 105.) | ||
Thomas J. Samuelian | ||
Great Soviet Encyclopedia | Britannica (anonymous author) | |
Krugosvet cyclopedia | The New Westminster Dictionary of Church History | |
I have corrected your table according to the quotations which were presented in this page. Many of your statements do not correspond to what was quoted. I placed Thomson in two categories, from what has been quoted above by Apex, he admits it is highly disputed. Hewsen in his latest book, as it was quoted above says that the date is uncertain, Suny from what you have quoted does not give any dates at all. Also, if we are going to remove those who are not experts on Armenia/Armenians, we might as well remove Suny. He is not an Armenologist ([Suny] is not primarily a specialist on Armenia,... by Nora Dudwick, reviewed work(s): Looking toward Ararat: Armenia in Modern History. by Ronald Grigor Suny, Slavic Review, Vol. 53, No. 3 (Autumn, 1994), p. 970) I have not added any new names but just fixed the ones you incorrectly placed in two limited categories. This is not a bipolar, majority vs minority argument. I have never provided any sources about the legitimacy of the 5th century date, Khorenatsi could be a 19th century scholar for all I care. The reality is that scholars have yet to reach a consensus regarding a date, this is in stark contrast to what you (i'm guessing cuz of this Talk:Sisak (eponym)) and Dab (his infatuation is not a secret) have been pushing all along.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Other authors who support 5th century dating:
While there might be a need of additional confirmation, the sources provided, the former president of Armenia Levon Ter-Petrosian, the British Library Curator Vrej Nersessian and the art historian M. Hasratian, seem also to support the fifth century dating. --The Diamond Apex (talk) 14:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The Armenians begin to speak at length for themselves in historical records only after the invention of the Armenian alphabet by St. Mesrop in the fifth century AD. Much of the material on Armenian origins and antiquities related by the historian Movses Khorenatsi (Moses of Khoren), however, is exceedingly ancient and must be evaluated in the light of other archaeological, linguistic, and mythological data. Khorenatsi probably lived long after the conversion of the Armenian people to Christianity, yet the wealth of archaic material he preserves is testimony to the great conservatism of Armenian culture.
James Russell. The Formation of the Armenian Nation. In: The Armenian people from ancient to modern times. Palgrave Macmillan, 1997. ISBN 0312101694, 9780312101695, p. 20
Bert Vaux, an Associate Professor of Linguistics in the Department of Linguistics at Harvard University, stresses that Russell's "training is actually in Iranian Studies," and that Russell's "chair [of Armenian Studies] is actually hurting the [Armenian] community at this point. When you call the Armenians neo-Nazis, that isn't helping the community and it's not leaving it alone-it's hurting it. You are providing fodder for people that want to attack the Armenians." [1]
Nina Garsoian:
The greatest problem it poses us, that of the dating and attribution of sources, due to its late manuscripts, is a natural outcome of the country's deeply perturbed history. Thus for over a century, the date of Moses of Xoren's History of Armenia has oscillated between the 5th and the 9th century.
Nina G. Garsoian, in: Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages. Routledge, 2000. ISBN 1579582826, 9781579582821, p. 107
Grandmaster 18:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
They do add a lot. The dating controversy is a very important part of the article, and the issue is not presented appropriately. I suggest we ask for unprotection of the article, so that we can add more info about the 5th century dating being disputed, and the reasons why exactly it is disputed, the arguments in support of both datings, etc. The sources that I have cited above have not been properly incorporated into the article, and the majority view has not been objectively presented. The current version of the article is not acceptable. Grandmaster 06:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
There is some scholarly debate over the exact date of Khorenatsi's history; some place it in the fifth century others as late as the eighth, e.g. Robert Thomson. Certain internal evidence, e.g., passages that parallel later texts and relate to later events, are cited to support the later dating, although these are considered by others to be post-Khorenatsi interpolations and revisions. On the other hand, reference to events, such as Mesrop Mashtots' scolding of Yeznik Koghbatsi for his trip to Greece, which is not mentioned by other Armenian authors who are undisputedly from the fifth century, points to the fifth century dating for Khorenatsi as more accurate. At any rate, it has long been considered the first comprehensive history of the Armenians, and for the purpose of explaining approaches to Armenian prehistory, the date of the text or authorship is not of supervening importance. See, Movsisi Khorenats'woy Patmut'iwn Hayots' (Yerevan University Press 1981); Moses Khorenats’i, History of the Armenians, Robert W. Thomson, trans. & commentary, “Introduction,” (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University, 1978) 1, 60, n. 120; Ishkhanian, Origin, 84-88; Armen Ayvazian, Hayastani patmut'yan lusabanumě amerikyan patmagrut’yan mej – k'nnakan tesut'yun (Yerevan 1998) 132-139.
Thomas J. Samuelian, Armenian Origins: An Overview of Ancient and Modern Sources and Theories, p. 7
Gazifikator (talk) 11:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Самым знаменитым арм. историком-классиком является Мовсес Хоренаци (Моисей Хоренский). Его эпический труд, написанный по образцу «Хроники» Евсевия Кесарийского, охватывает историю А. от начала времен (эпическая часть) до кончины Месропа Маштоца. Мовсес называет себя учеником Маштоца и Саака и в арм. традиции считается автором V в.; эту датировку принимают и ряд арменоведов (напр., Г. Х. Саркисян), другие считают, что «История Армении» Мовсеса могла быть написана не ранее VIII в. (Р. Томсон, К. Туманов).
The most famous classical Armenian historian is Movses Khorenatsi (Moses of Chorene). His epic work, written after the example of the Chronicle of Eusebius of Caesarea, covers the history of Armenia from the beginning of times (epic part) until the death of Mesrob Mashtots. Movses calls himself a disciple of Mashtots and Sahak, and is considered a 5th century author in the Armenian tradition; this dating is accepted by a number of armenologists (e.g. G.H. Sarkisyan), while others believe that History of Armenia by Movses could not have been written earlier than the 8th century (R.Thomson, C.Toumanoff).
Come on GM, that excuse doesn't fly. Using that logic, we can exclude Hewsen for making small use of Bunyadov and Mamedova, who make far dumber claims and erase the word "Armenia" from historical maps. In defense of Ayvazyan, while his conclusions are definitely wrong, the historical mistakes he finds in their works are nonetheless mostly correct. As for Samuelian, please refrain from unprofessional remarks and character assassination; he has been involved in Armenian studies and has served as an editor for important works on Armenian studies since at least 1982 and has translated the works of medieval authors such as Grigor Narekatsi , which invalidates your absurd notion that he is an "amateur." And, needless to say, Thomson is fair game and shouldn't always be the person to consult as a last resort when it comes to resolving these things. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't think any serious scholar would refer to figures like I. Aliyev or Z. Bunyadov either but here we are. Samuelian could have perhaps consulted other sources, but it's entirely possible that he didn't have access to other literature at the time. Either way, you should leave your personal interpolations and OR at the door. Ayvazyan's book is unfortunately the only critical survey of works published in Armenian studies in the US.
I'm assuming the only part of this article that you are terribly interested in rewriting is the dating section (and the removal of those pesky dates following his name at the top). The article will be unprotected in due time but it should be noted that any further Dbachmannisms are entirely unwelcome.-Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I asked for a third party opinion at WP:3o to facilitate the dispute resolution. Grandmaster 10:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is the majority:
Sources in support of 5t ct dating | Sources that say the issue is disputed/uncertain/author not explicit | Sources in support of later dating |
---|---|---|
Adam T. Smith | Robert H. Hewsen (Armenia: A Historical Atlas, 2001, p. 7) | Anne Elizabeth Redgate |
Stepan Malkhasyants | James R. Russell | Cyril Toumanoff |
Agop Jack Hacikyan, et al | Robert W. Thomson | Robert W. Thomson |
Aram Topchyan | Britannica (anonymous author) | David M. Lang |
Gagik Sarkisyan | C. J. F. Dowsett | The New Westminster Dictionary of Church History |
Boris Piotrovsky | Nina G. Garsoian | |
Levon Ter-Petrosyan | ||
Vrej Nersessian | ||
Petros Hovhannisyan | ||
Edward Gulbekian ("The Attitude to War in 'The Epic of Sasoun'", Folklore, Vol. 95, No. 1 (1984), p. 105.) | ||
Thomas J. Samuelian | ||
Great Soviet Encyclopedia | ||
Krugosvet cyclopedia | ||
Christopher J. Walker, Alla Ter-Sarkisiants, I. G. Semenov, Zufar Zaĭnievich Miftakhov, A. N. Khuziakhmetov, International Committee of Historical Sciences, Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, Reader's encyclopedia of Eastern European literature, Gerhard Doerfer | ||
Gazifikator (talk) 08:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Maybe the lead should be like this:
Movses Khorenatsi (Armenian: Մովսես Խորենացի, Armenian pronunciation: [movsɛs χoɹɛnɑtsʰi], Moses of Chorene or Movses of Khoren; also written Movsēs Xorenac‘i, Movses Khorenats'i; traditionally believed to date to the 5th century (circa 410 – 490s AD), but the actual dating of Moses of Chorene remains disputed - scholars have argued for a 5th-century date, for a 7th to 9th century date, or consider his work to be a composite from several periods.)
I read somewhere that there's an opinion that this work was a combination of earlier and later works, but not sure where. We need a source for that statement. If no source is available for such statement, we can leave it out, and only mention various datings. Grandmaster 19:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the possibility of it being a combination of earlier and later works was discussed somewhere on this talk page, though I don't know what sources were used. In the first sentence think you have to mention what he was. Like this: Movses Khorenatsi (Armenian: Մովսես Խորենացի, Armenian pronunciation: [movsɛs χoɹɛnɑtsʰi], Moses of Chorene or Movses of Khoren; also written Movsēs Xorenac‘i, Movses Khorenats'i) was an Armenian historian, traditionally believed to date to the 5th century (circa 410 – 490s AD). The actual dating of Moses of Chorene remains disputed - scholars have argued for a 5th-century date, for a 7th to 9th century date, or consider his work to be a composite from several periods. Meowy 21:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I understand, it's just that Movses' works and importance as a historian should be the main concern in the lead. The dating issue here has drained enough water. Removing the "(circa 410 – 490s AD)" serves no point if the reader is simply going to read those dates in the biography section. I certainly have not chanced upon reading about the multiple authors (and not scribal errors) theory in modern scholarly literature lately. Perhaps something to this effect: Movses Khorenatsi (Armenian: Մովսես Խորենացի, Armenian pronunciation: [movsɛs χoɹɛnɑtsʰi], Movses of Khoren; also written Movsēs Xorenac‘i, Movses Khorenats'i, circa 410 – 490s AD, scholars have also argued for a 7th to 9th century date) was an Armenian historian, and author of the History of Armenia" etc. etc.? --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
That's a good observation Meowy. I don't understand it GM, why is it so difficult to accept the wording I offered above? Do you really have your heart set on including the words the dating is disputed, even though its plainly obvious in that version? It's been over a month now, let's start adding the more juicy information Movses and the History of Armenia. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Would you object to the following version as well: Movses Khorenatsi (Armenian: Մովսես Խորենացի, Armenian pronunciation: [movsɛs χoɹɛnɑtsʰi], Movses of Khoren; also written Movsēs Xorenac‘i, Movses Khorenats'i, circa 410 – 490s AD, although scholars have disputed this and have argued for a 7th to 9th century date) was an Armenian historian, and author of the History of Armenia" etc. etc.?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Sounds fine.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:16, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
The only reason I "edit-warred" was because neither you nor the implacable and intransigent dab held any sincere or meaningful discussions on the sudden changes you were proposing. How many times did I write "no consensus" only to face instant reverts afterwards? It's not my fault that dab essentially hijacked the article and then started hurling insults left and right on anyone who disagreed with him. I still am hesitant on agreeing to unprotection because I don't think the fires have cooled yet; perhaps another month...--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I have lowered the protection to semi. I have also added it to my watchlist. It is my wish that as few articles as possible are protected, but I won't hesitate to reapply the protection if necessary and/or block editors who engage in editwarring or POV-pushing. Please continue to discuss any edits which may be controversial, and follow WP:BRD. Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:27, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
And what a mistake that was. Less than a few hours after this article was unlocked, GM just reinserted information without even bothering to discuss the controversial edits on the talk page first. What is the point of this page anyways? This is POV pushing, ad nauseum. If it continues, I will file a report.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
So you are just upset over the lack of the use of this specific word, even though it's clearly implied throughout the article? And, not being satisfied with this, you decided to mention it three more times, in successive order no less, in the body of the text? Yes, while they were revived, Thomson went several steps further and he is perhaps one of the most biased authors on the subject. I don't have any problem concisely (and neatly) inserting his opinions in the article but why did you do all this without saying so on the talk page? Why did you not propose your versions here? Why did you blindly revert the publishing data of Hacikyan's book? And so on.
As for the first mention by an Armenian historian – this is clearly disputed. The general consensus is that Movses Kaghankatvatsi was a seventh century author who wrote the first two books of his work (where Movses is mentioned) and that the third book was written by Movses Daskhurantsi, an author of the tenth century. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW, what is "Hypercritical phase"? Is it a generally accpeted scholarly term to refer to the critisism of Moses of Khoren in the 19th century? It does not seem to be. Grandmaster 05:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
It's a term which is not exclusive to Movses. Herodotus, Thuycidedes, Plutarch were all subjected to this during the 19th century. Read Topchyan's books.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Of course not. If you had more access to the literature you would know this.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Sargsyan in his works (including in the SAE) mentions this, as does Malkhasyants in his Introduction to his translation. Googling should give you plenty of results. It's not exclusive to Movses alone and Topchyan provides ample literature on the subject. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Please change the main image of this article to the following and perhaps move the existing to a new "gallery" section. Thanks.
Serouj (talk) 06:51, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
This isn't an article on a church or museum for it to have a 'gallery' section. How many portraits of Khorenatsi do we actually have? I personally am satisfied with the main image. We can move the one you proposed further down the article. Perhaps I'll do it.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 14:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Mates, I am disturbed with the way editing wars this article is yielding. Let's all take a deep breath and start discussing each others' edits instead of battering against one another.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 06:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I want to file a request for mediation. Does anyone object? Grandmaster 06:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I object. There's nothing here that we cannot rationally solve by ourselves that we have to once more bother the administrators again. But you added information, once more unsurprisingly, without any context, without achieving any consensus on the talk page and, thus very provocatively incited another edit war. The staple rule on Wikipedia, as you should well know, is that you have to discuss controversial edits and only then make the changes. That has been a major failure on your part GM and your editing habits have unfortunately yet to change.
Can someone please archive this talk page?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
{{editprotected}} I've created a new infobox template to be shared by relevant articles. Admins, please add it to the bottom of this page, replacing existing hard-coded text: {{Medieval Armenian Historians and Chroniclers}}Thanks. Serouj (talk) 17:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
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