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On 12 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Nonmetal (chemistry). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Is the primary use of the term nonmetal for elements in the periodic table? For details see discussions above and also at Talk:Nonmetallic compounds and elements. Editor Sandbh is arguing that this is the case, with some other additions. Editors Johnjbarton, Ldm1954 and YBG have questioned this, and both Johnjbarton and Ldm1954 have questioned the scientific accuracy. Ldm1954 (talk) 07:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Is the primary use of the term nonmetal for elements in the periodic table, but there is no question mark at the end, and this question/statement seems to be malformed. Can you please clarify? spintheer (talk) 05:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
The primary use is clearly the one about electrical properties. Metallicity is a property of substances, and you cannot sensibly apply it to abstract elements (which are really classes of atoms having the same Z). What we really precisely mean when we say "aluminium is a metal" is that "at standard conditions, Al forms a metallic phase". This is implicit when we say things like "iodine becomes a metal at 160 kbar": metallicity is not an inherent property of the abstract element, but rather changes when we go through that phase change.
It's just that when it comes to teaching the periodic table to kids seeing it for the first time, people are often loose about this distinction. At that level one mostly focuses on absolutely obvious cases like alkali metals or halogens; therefore, allotropy and phase changes tend to get brushed aside, since such elements don't undergo phase changes that change metallicity until we get to temperatures and pressures outside the concern of such first courses. And since so much of the periodic table is getting skipped over, metallicity gets conflated or bundled with chemical properties common to what elements you see in a first course do. Naturally it is completely incorrect to say that all metals must form basic oxides: anyone working on heavy transition metals obviously understands this. But even though the whole periodic table is being illustrated in such elementary textbooks, nobody is giving any information about things like rhenium in them, because then they wouldn't be elementary anymore. What we have here is a lie-to-children simplification of the real definition, since you cannot explain all of this to people first seeing the periodic table without most of their heads exploding: and I think it is somewhat of a mistake to treat it as an actual, independent definition. Double sharp (talk) 08:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
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Historical quotes set out in the Oxford English Dictionary
Five of six of the quotes refer to non-metal elements rather than non-metallic elements or substances. |
Conclusion
A sizeable majority of dictionary definitions (close to 10 out of 10) support a primary use meaning of “nonmetal” as an element that is not a metal.
Per special:diff/1230540753: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandbh (talk • contribs) 09:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
The context for this section is that to understand nonmetals one must also understand metals.
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Observations
The list of meanings indicates that the primary use of the term "metal" is grounded in the general physical properties of the applicable elements and their alloys, and to a lesser extent, the chemical properties of the metallic elements (rather then a niche meaning of a metal having at least one partially occupied band at the Fermi level). These properties include being opaque, hard, shiny, good conductors of heat and electricity, and (as elements) forming positive ions. These meanings provide an accessible understanding that is applicable in everyday contexts.
Concomitantly, the term "nonmetal" is primarily used and understood as a chemical element that mostly lacks distinctive metallic properties.
These general understandings are crucial for maintaining clarity and accessibility in encyclopedic content for a wide audience. --- Sandbh (talk) 02:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm posting this for discussion, having for some time worked on it in the background. I feel it's now in a form that's suitable for further consideration.
My impression is that there are three types of relevant and distinguishable meanings associated with the term "nonmetal": 1. metal (inc. in physics); 2. nonmetal; 3. nonmetallic material. These three types seem to imply the existence of an undocumented type: 4. nonmetallic substance.
Types
1. "Metal", in the general use meaning of the term, refers to a class of elements and their alloys generally characterized by high electrical and thermal conductivity, malleability, ductility, and lustre, and their capacity, as elements, to form positive ions.
This general meaning is what most people understand and use in everyday language and in many practical applications. I appreciate that "postive ions" is not what most people would understand about metals. That said, in the ten dictionaries I looked up the definition of "metal", six of them included a reference to chemical properties.
There are some niche meanings of the term metal, in physics and in astronomy, but apparently not in metallurgy (strangely enough):
2. "Nonmetal", in the general use meaning of the term, is a chemical element mostly lacking distinctive metallic properties.
3. "Nonmetallic materials", in materials science, are substances in the condensed state (liquid, solid, colloidal) designed or manipulated for technological ends. Gases are generally not included here unless designed or manipulated etc. An explanation for the exclusion of gases is given by the Aims & Scope statement for Nature Materials:
So, there it is: gaseous substances are out of scope of "materials", unless they are "designed or manipulated for technological ends". The term "nonmetallic material: then becomes somewhat of an artificial distinction, rather than a properties-based one.
Eleven extracts from the literature illustrating the use of the term "nonmetallic materials" can be found here.
4. "Nonmetallic substances" are solids, liquids and gases, other than metals. Curiously, there is no unified notion of such a type in the literature, from what I could find. It includes the type 2a non-extant meaning of semiconductors and insulators; and the type 3 meaning of nonmetallic materials.
These are the issues I intend to work on next, subject to RL obligations and ongoing discussions on this talk page:
From FAC 9
Results of edit review
--- Sandbh (talk) 08:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
"Age does not automatically disqualify scientific work; the earliest paper I cite in dated 1858."
Bond GC 2005, Metal-Catalysed Reactions of Hydrocarbons, Springer Science, New York, p. vii
@Ldm1954: Thank you. My comments are attempted responses to others, and based in or on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy. My comments about Ashcroft and Mermin are matters of fact that can be confirmed by checking their book. These aspects of their book are not representative of the primary use of the term nonmetal, nor is the rest of their book representative of this primary use. Since their book is instead about solid state physics, that makes sense. Of course, counting mentions means nothing absent of context. The context in this case is the nonmetal article, and the primary use of the term nonmetal. In contrast, we could consider (as a random example) Birk's Chemistry 1994, Instructor's Annotated Edition, at about 1,000 pages and see that metal/s and metallic are mentioned about 1,230 times and nonmetal/s and nonmetallic are mentioned about 200 times. On this basis it seems reasonable to presume that this source could shed some light on the term nonmetal.
Ldm1954, too many of your comments are reflective of your Materials Science and Engineering background. That is what is known as expert bias. You can only see the world through your materials science and engineering glasses, and therefore seek to filter out things that are not congruent with this view, including Wikipedia policy. Here's a pertinent link to a 2020 article on "Cognitive and human factors in expert decision making: Six fallacies and eight sources of bias. Some pertinent extracts are listed below:
Expert bias extracts |
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As the author says, no one is immune to bias, neither you nor me, nor the rest of the editors who have contributed to this thread. Hence the need to rely on a representative assessment of the literature + Wikipedia policy.
Several comments by others have done an excellent job of generating thoughtful discussion. More generally the disussion has prompted some good research into dictionary—i.e. common use— meanings of the term "nonmetal" and the meaning of the term "nonmetallic materials". The use and meaning of the term "nonmetal" in physics remains to be summarised.
I wasn't familiar with WP:TNT. I see it is neither WP policy nor a WP guideline. --- Sandbh (talk) 13:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
@YBG and Double sharp: By now, I had hoped to have been getting Nonmetal ready for FAC. I haven't been able to progress this work due to a combination of (1) the need to address concerns raised by other editors, Ldm1954 and User:Johnjbarton in particular; and (2) RL obligations.
I regard Ldm1954 and Johnjbarton's input as representing an important contribution to the development of the article (as I do of your contributions, YBG and Double sharp).
My view on our discusssions is fairly well captured in this quote:
TLDR: The genesis of manned flight, by the Wright Brothers, arose out of disagreement. By allowing their arguments to run hot, the Wrights were able to beat all the experts in the world.
The idea that people with different views can vigorously yet cooperatively disagree is essential to democratic society.
A good scrap can turn our cognitive flaws into collective virtues.
Truth wins out only after an exchange of arguments. The answers that emerge will be stronger for having been forged in the crucible of our disagreement. — Sandbh (talk) 07:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I've been looking into conceptions of "nonmetallic materials". Most curiously, gases like H, N and O are generally out of scope, unless designed or manipulated for technological ends (never mind their status as nonmetals).
Weird, eh? The explanation is give by the Aims & Scope statement for Nature Materials:
So there it is: gaseous substances are out of scope of materials science, unless they are "designed or manipulated for technological ends". The term "nonmetallic material" in the case of gaseous substances, is an artificial distinction, rather than a properties-based one.
What follows are eleven extracts from the literature. Note that while both compounds and nonmetal elements are mentioned, only the solid nonmetal elements get a seat at the table, being C, P and S in these examples. Quote #9 is interesting since it recognises O as a nonmetallic element but presumably not as a nonmetallic material.
Nonmetallic materials mentions |
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1. Meire Rl 1951, The long-term prospects for essential minerals, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, vol. 7. no. 7, pp. 214—216 (215) ""Non-metallic materials…Salt…Lime…Sulfur" 2. Glaeser WA 1963, Wear characteristics in non-metallic materials. Wear, 6(2), 93–105
3. Tottle CR 1974, The Science of Engineering Materials, reprint of 1966 ed., Heinemann Educational Books, London, p. 20 As well as referring to metals and nonmetals in the periodic table sense Tottle later includes a chapter on Metals and alloys, and a chapter on Non-metallic materials. Some examples given by him of non-metallic materials are alumina, magnesia, graphite, beryllia, titanium carbide, glass, rubber, nylon and wood. He gets into trouble in his chapter on Metals and alloys, since he includes some discussion on interstitial solid solutions, such as cementite Fe3C, which is an insulator, and intermetallic compounds, which appears fine on the surface, until one realises that some intermetallic compounds are semiconductors, such as FeGa3, RuGa3, and IrGa3. I've never heard of semiconducting or insulating metals or alloys. 4. Waldron RD 1993, Production of non-volatile materials on the moon, in Lewis J, Matthews MS & Guerrieri ML (eds) Resources of Near-Earth Space, The University of Arizona Press, Tucson, pp. 257–296
"Nonmetals
and elastomers." p. 275
5. Komatina M 2004, Medical Geology: Effects of Geological Environments on Human Health, Elsevier, Amsterdam, p. 186
6. Smith P 2005, Piping Materials Guide, Elsevier, Amsterdam
FRP Fiber-reinforced plastic
NR Natural rubber SIC Silicon carbideXPS Extruded polystyrene"
Diabon Graphite Sigri, GermanyHfr cement Potassium silicate cement Hoechst, Germany", pp. 317+ 7. Phull B & Abdullahi AA 2010, Marine corrosion, in Cottis et al. (eds) Shreir's Corrosion, vol 2, Elsevier, Amsterdam, pp. 1107–1148
8. Taheri-Ledari R 2022, Classification of micro and nanoscale composites, in Maleki A (ed.), Heterogeneous Micro and Nanoscale Composites for the Catalysis of Organic Reactions, Elsevier, Amsterdam, pp. 1–21
9. Abdelbary A & Chang L 2023, Principles of Engineering Tribology, Elsevier, Amsterdam
10. Huang Z, Shao G & Li L 2023, Micro/nano functional devices fabricated by additive manufacturing, Progress in Materials Science, vol. 131, 101020
11. Li Z & Yu C 2024, Nanostructured Materials: Physicochemical Fundamentals for Energy and Environmental Applications, Elsevier, Amsterdam, p. 4
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Sandbh (talk) 00:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
The Uses section starts with this self-contradictory paragraph:
So in other words, the unique properties discussed throughout the article play no role in the uses of nonmetals. Rather it is the atypical properties that are important. I am just going to delete this until we can sort it out. The reference is not about "nonmetal elements" but rather about elements, some of which are classed as nonmetals. Johnjbarton (talk) 03:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
I've restored a lede paragraph to the Uses section, so that the reader can immediately grasp what is covered by the whole section. The lede follows the rule of three (writing), in that there are three broad usage categories, and one more. Since "attenuative" may seem like a less familiar word to the general reader, it's accompanied by a parenthetical explanation (meaning skip the parentheses if you already know what attenuative means). Using this word also makes it easier to summarise six of the "significant number" uses down to one broad category. --- Sandbh (talk) 13:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
The section in History called "Discovery" isn't about the discovery of "nonmetal". As the immediately following section makes clear, the concept of "nonmetal" dates from the late 1700s. In my opinion this section should be deleted. Johnjbarton (talk) 22:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
@Johnjbarton and Ldm1954: Per MOS:SECTIONSTYLE the section title should not be changed to "Discovery of nonmetals". I attempted to do so but User:YBG reverted . --- Sandbh (talk) 03:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
While most nonmetallic elements were identified during the 18th and 19th centuries, a few were recognized much earlier. The context that is lacking includes
@Johnjbarton: To address your concerns I've edited the content to do with the Discovery of the applicable elements, and added this section after the section now called "Taxonomical history". The lede of the "Discovery of applicable elements section" read as follows:
I feel that this addresses your concerns re, "say[ing] any nonmetal element was discovered before the concept of "nonmetal element" existed."
How does the revised "Discovery" section now look? — Sandbh (talk) 13:06, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
The article:
{{cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: PMC format (link)discusses the question "Why do the chemical elements of the periodic table exist either as metals or non-metals under ambient conditions?’" To me, this is the kind of question that ought to dominate the content of this article, rather than factoids about particular elements that don't related to 'nonmetal'. Johnjbarton (talk) 22:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
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