Loading AI tools
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Due to repeated vandalism of this article's info box by anonymous editors, I've added a warning in the article source:
"NOTE TO EDITORS: DO NOT MODIFY THE COUNTRY NAMES USED IN THE INFO BOX BELOW WITHOUT FIRST DISCUSSING YOUR CHANGES ON THE DISCUSSION PAGE. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN YOUR EDITING PRIVILEGES BEING BLOCKED IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT FURTHER WARNINGS."
The names used in the info box are as specified by Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. I don't think there's any valid reason to change them, and certainly not to nonsense like "Republic of Vardar" or "Republic of Skopje" as our vandals have been trying to do. Changes of that significance should discussed on the talk page anyway, considering how controversial the article is. From now on, further vandalism of this nature will attract an immediate block. -- ChrisO 09:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
This is correct. A fully pro-slavo-macedonian controlled censorship article. Nestore 16:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
International recognition of ROM (FYROM) (change required)
The following factual correction is necessary; the correction is proposed on the fact that the term 'most' refers to over 50% and this UN member state has not been recognised by 'most' countries under its chosen constitutional name of ROM. Therefore: The text which reads: "International organisations and some countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but most countries now recognise it under its official name". Needs to be corrected to: "International organisations and many countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but a number of countries now recognise it under its official name"
This is not correct: some countries in particilar : USA, Russia, China and Turkey use the unofficial name. what is official? official is something that is accepted by everybody. so you can compare the whole issue like branding-copyright. who had the name first. indisputable the greeks. so if greece allows the r.o.m. to use the name it is official! e.g. nike allows to a no-name manufactor to use its logo or name-can you imagine that? off course not. but in this case we are talking about a country´s name with people etc. it is a very delicate topic and understandable because of the very fragile situation in r.o.m. , many ethicities, albanians hoping for autonomy etc. so the use of the name macedonia makes a compromise for all ethnicities there, it has a glory history etc. but nobody of its inhabitants whether albanians, bulgarians, turks, romas etc. neither the slawo-macedonians can be connected with the macedonian civilisation or culture. therefor the use is illegal but understandable. the r.o.m. people should understand this, it is no provocation by the greeks for the individual person but the greeks feel theft about the use of the name. so greece has to decide in negotiations with the r.o.m. about solutions fot the future. in the past the area was called vardarska banovina. what is so wrong with this name? the river of vardar is located there- no greek would dispute this name. why provoking the greeks on purpose? remember that the glory history of greece showed that they never took wrong positions (e.g. II world war etc.) and this will show also in the future that greece has a reason to not accept this name. imagine a part of mexico will gain independancy and they proclaim the name republic of texas or republic of california(there is allready a part in mexico which uses the name california- but this is not a country only a state in mexico) Nestore 08:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Well,Chris,do u know anything about real valdalism and who is doing it?this article have changed many times...and everytime that the greek point of view was added,it was immediately changed and'protected'.i do not know why it is so hard for people in wikipedia to understand that the country's name is 'FYROM' at the moment!wheather u like it or not,this is the internationally recognised name... Furthermore,in the demographics section,there is neither official estimate for the greek minority,nor unofficial estimates for the vlach and greek minorities...whereas in the section of the demographics of greece there is an 'unofficial estimate' for supposedly 'macedonian' minority-an overestimation,i have to say.this happens also in the section about 'Macedonians'.everything that u claim as 'protected' is just anti-hellenic.i can't get it...it is simply not fair!anyways,i have been sick with all the word usage of the name Macedonia,from people who have not a single knowledge of history...if u had made a bit searching and studying in history facts,u would be the one who would change this article(or at least let the others to do so).at least be wise and allow the opinions of both sides(till the dispute is solved)...but i guess your pro-skopjian feelings will not allow u to do so... what can i say?just letting u make some company with your ahistorical and antiscientific thoughts... if i have misunderstoond u,i will take what i say back,but i guess i haven't...
Archive 1
Archive 2
Archive 3
Archive 4
Archive 5
Archive 6
Archive 7
because I'm Macedonian and he is pro-Greek. Fortunately he only blocked my friends' ip and not mine, I have dynamic. MACEDONIA IS SLAVIC AND ONE DAY ALL MACEDONIAN AREAS WILL BE LIBERATED Arnegjor2 19:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
And they blocked me again for being a Macedonian! Is this freedom of speech? Arnegjor3 19:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I can speak again, who knows for how long.. It seems that community based projects can lead to equal missuse of power from "regulators", reminds liberties in communist countries. Arnegjor 12:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
a personal attack against me, why nobody sends you a warning about that? Is that because you want Macedonians to have a fake and "calmed down" perspective of our recognision problems and I fall out of this standards? Am I doing bad for our country just because I'm honest and so have to be kicked out of wikipedia? Is this the purpose of wikipedia? Arnegjor 14:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I really don't understand why you Macedonians (nation) are are so stuck with this name. Can't you see that this is the
root for all your problems? You are a new country and you want to put yourself in a lifetime situation of:
1) having always to explain the differences between Macedonia(nation), Macedonia (ancient state), Macedonia (state) and Macedonia (region) This weakens how your national identity and how you want to define yourself.
2) You will always have a 30% of Albanian Macedonians (region and state) who will never become Macedonians (nation). Big percentage that will always remain a minority.
3) bad relationships with Greece (Macedonian name issue), Albania over the Albanian minority of non-Macedonian (nation) Macedonians (region) and possibly with Bulgaria. Don't expect that Greeks will ever stop claiming that you shouldn't be monopolising the name Macedonia and create confusion over what they claim to be their Macedonia (ancient state) and their Macedonian (region) Greeks and Macedonian (nation) minority in Greece that they don't want to accept that they have. The only way to solve this problem is start a war and try to achieve Macedonia (state) overlaping Macedonia (region).
4) By revamping an ancient state (don't make me wrong, you are trying to use the same name and the same flag, you will always be a country like Greece, with a golden age in the past and a boring present and future ahead. History has proved that every nation has only one pick.
You have a new country with all your future ahead. You've proved to the world how good you are with politics. Why do you let stupid nationalism be the root for all your problems? You have suffered enough for having to fight for ever with Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians over the name Macedonia which in my opinion refers to one of the most barbaric civilazions of the ancient world; Alexander is only famous for his great army, an ancient Hitler who just managed to succed with a civilization and culture so weak that the historians are still debating over his (Hellenic/Illyrian?) nationality and language.
Why don't you just create a new country with a name that really means something in your Macedonian (nation) language, create a new Macedonian (region) nation who respects the non Macedonians (nation) Macedonians (state) in your country and have no minorities, respect Macedonians (region) in other countries (Bulgaria), Greece and Albania who still want to be called Macedonians (region) and won't feel that you try to refuse their Macedonian (region) identity? Is the dream for the future of your country just people liek Greeks, selling copies of Alexander's statues to tourists, or is it to become a contemporary state that culturely "conquers" the world with its contemporary thinking? Greeks have been doing the first for centuries, and their Macedonia (region) is the poorest, while after being for so many years a member of E.U. the only thing they are really good at doing is speaking about their (rewritten?) history. They only started being proud of the Macedonian ancient state after 1993 and a proof for that is that they called the Univeristy of Thessaloniki in Macedonia (region) "Aristottle", an Athenian name while now they are calling Athenian universities with Macedonian (ancient state) names. How many hours do Macedonians (nation), Macedonians (region) and other nationalists spend here in this website and how many total hours will be spent over the years, from all, trying to solve this dispute that has no solution? Neither teh U.N. or E.U. and nor N.A.T.O will stop Macedonians (nation) from calling themselves Macedonians and Greek and Bulgarian Macedonians (region) using the same name. For how many years will the Wikipedia page of Macedonia lead to a (disambiguation) page? LETS BREAK THE ROPE AS ALEXANDER DID! THE WORLD WILL BE PROUD OF YOU! YOU CAN BE A MCONTEMPORARY COUNTRY, MODEL FOR ITS RESPECT FOR OTHER NATIONS AND MODERN THINKING, WHY DO YOU WANT TO HAVE A WEAK IDENTITY AND HAVE PROBLEMS WITH NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES AND MINORITIES WITHIN YOUR STATE? JUST TO FEED A STUPID NATIONALISM, A FETISH FOR SHARING SAME SYMBOLS AND NAME WITH A BARBARIC ANCIENT THAT THE ONLY THING IT EVER DID WAS TO KILL MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND CONTROL THE WORLD FOR SOME YEARS? Svetlyo 18:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
ITS BULGARIAN! CHECK: http://www.macedoniainfo.com/10_Lies_Macedonism.htm
And you check this: http://www.makedonika.org/Bojdimi1.htm
Who are you? don't you have a nickname? Arne
According to the CIA World Factbook, Macedonia was the poorest republic of Yugoslavia; Bosnia was the next poorest:
-- ChrisO 11:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
If you search the press of Greece and RoM during the last years, you 'll find that about 800,000 people in RoM (35%?) live below the "poverty level" and almost 2,000,000 people in Greece (18%?) the same. I'm sorry but I don't remember if the sources for the statistics were related with each local goverment's census or not, but a search of recent (2-3 years) newspapers will probably verify the above. +MATIA ☎ 17:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
1911:Population by Vilayet Thessaloniki(Selanik) Muslim :605.000,Greek:398.000,Bulgarian:271.000
1911:Population by Vilayet Monastir(Bitola) Muslim:456.000,Greek:350.000,Bulgarian:246.000
1911:Population by Vilayet Kosovo(capital city Uskub) Muslim:959.000, Greek: 93.000,Bulgarian:531.000
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904: VILAYET OF THESSALONIKI: GREEKS :373.227 BULGARIANS:207.317
VILAYET OF MONASTIR(Bitola): GREEKS :373.261.283 BULGARIANS:178.412
SANTZAK OF USKUB (Skopje) GREEKS : 13.452 BULGARIANS:172.735
Name | Nationality | Greeks | Bulgarians | Serbs | Remarks | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1. Spiridon Goptchevitch | Serbia | 201,140 | 57,600 | 2,048,320 | Refers to Macedonia and Old Serbia (Kosovo and Sanjak) | |
2. Cleanthes Nicolaides | Greece | 454,700 | 656,300 | 576,600 | --- | |
3. Vasil Kantchoff | Bulgaria | 225,152 | 1,184,036 | 700 | --- | |
4. M. Brancoff | Bulgaria | 190,047 | 1,172,136 | --- | --- | |
Name | Nationality | Population total | Bulgarians | Greeks | Turks | Albanians | Remarks |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1. Prof. G. Wiegland - Die Nationalen Bestrebungen der Balkansvölker. Leipzig 1898 | Germany | 2,275,000 | 1,200,000 | 220,000 | 695,000 | --- | All Muslims incl. Albanians under Turks |
2. Official Turkish Statistic Ethnicity of Macedonia Philippopoli 1881 | Turkey | 754,353 | 500,554 | 22,892 | 185,535 | --- | All Muslims incl. Albanians under Turks |
3. Journal "Le Temps" Paris 1905 | France | 2,782,000 | 1,200,000 | 270,000 | 410,000 | 600,000 | Refers to Macedonia and Old Serbia (Kosovo and Sanjak) |
4. Robert Pelletier - La verite sur la Bulgarie. Paris 1913 | France | 1,437,000 | 1,172,000 | 190,000 | --- | 3,036 | only Christian population |
5. Leon Dominian - The frontiers of Language and Nationality in Europe. New York 1917 | USA | 1,438,084 | 1,172,136 | 190,047 | --- | --- | Only Christian population |
6. Richard von Mach - Der Machtbereich des bulgarischen Exarchats in der Türkei. Leipzig - Neuchatel, 1906 | Germany | 1,334,827 | 1,166,070 | 95,005 | --- | 6,036 | Only Christian population |
7. Prince Tcherkasky 1877 | Russia | 1,771,220 | 872,700 | 124,250 | 516,220 | --- | All Muslims incl. Albanians under Turks |
8. Stepan Verkovitch 1889 | Serbia | 1,949,043 | 1,317,131 | 222,740 | 240,264 | 78,790 | --- |
9. Von der Golts - "Balkanwirren und ihre grunde" (1904) | Germany | --- | 266,000 | 580,000 | 730,000 | --- | All Muslims incl. Albanians under Turks |
10. Amadore Virgilli "La questiona roma rumeliota" (1907) | Italy | --- | 341,000 | 642,000 | 646,000 | --- | All Muslims incl. Albanians under Turks; Refers only to the vilyets of Thessaloniki and Monastir |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia
See German and Bulgarian Flags!!! http://makedonija.150m.com/makedonija/bulgarianfascisticoccupiermacedonian.htm
Where are the People of FYROM as Macedonians??
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..." http://img39.exs.cx/img39/3769/goce.jpg
"what is the Macedonian Slav nation? Macedonian as a nationality has never existed, they will say, and it does not exist now. There have always been two Slav nationalities in Macedonia: Bulgarian and Serbian. So, any kind of Macedonian Slav national revival is simply the empty concern of a number of fantasists who have no concept of South Slav history."-Misirkov Krste
How funny, did you notice the 16-rey Macedonian sun of Kutlesh at the four angles of the picture you are providing? That sun was used as a official flag of the Republic of Macedonia from 1991-1995:. Just to remind you, Kutlesh is the Macedonian name for the place in Aegean Macedonia - Greece that is now officialy called Vergina, as your user name. Did you notice the date of the invitation on the picture? (1893). That itself is a proof that Macedonians have been using that symbol for 113 years (and longer), not like Greeks who discovered that Macedonian symbol in 1978 during the excavation of the tomb of King Philip II. Bitola 12:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutional Organization, founded in 1893, leaded by Goce Delcev) will fight for a free, autonomous, united Macedonia within the framework of the future European confederation, based on the ideals of Ilinden . . . [for] the spiritual, political and economic union of the . . . divided Macedonian people and state, within the framework of a future Balkan union and a united Europe. (Extract from the IMRO Charter)
Letter from Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev
Dear G(otze) ... In Krushevo and Bitola the night blocades appear almost every day, and a lot of affairs throw people in jail. We shouldn't wait anymore, Goce. It is time for us to stand up and fight. We shouldn't wait for freedom from Greeks, neither from Bulgarians, but we Macedonians should fight for our Macedonia, ... As i am concerned, nobody can take away my courage and my patriotism. I am proud to report to you, that all our men are prepared to fight, with guns in their hands. N(ikola)
Bitola 11:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Will some of the administrators react on this kind of nationalistic topic? How long will people like this be allowed to terrorise Wikipedia? Macedonian(talk) 01:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Due to repeated vandalism of this article's info box by anonymous editors, I've added a warning in the article source:
"NOTE TO EDITORS: DO NOT MODIFY THE COUNTRY NAMES USED IN THE INFO BOX BELOW WITHOUT FIRST DISCUSSING YOUR CHANGES ON THE DISCUSSION PAGE. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN YOUR EDITING PRIVILEGES BEING BLOCKED IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT FURTHER WARNINGS."
The names used in the info box are as specified by Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. I don't think there's any valid reason to change them, and certainly not to nonsense like "Republic of Vardar" or "Republic of Skopje" as our vandals have been trying to do. Changes of that significance should discussed on the talk page anyway, considering how controversial the article is. From now on, further vandalism of this nature will attract an immediate block. -- ChrisO 09:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
International recognition of ROM (FYROM) (change required)
The following factual correction is necessary; the correction is proposed on the fact that the term 'most' refers to over 50% and this UN member state has not been recognised by 'most' countries under its chosen constitutional name of ROM. Therefore: The text which reads: "International organisations and some countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but most countries now recognise it under its official name". Needs to be corrected to: "International organisations and many countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but a number of countries now recognise it under its official name"
This is not correct: some countries in particilar : USA, Russia, China and Turkey use the unofficial name. what is official? official is something that is accepted by everybody. so you can compare the whole issue like branding-copyright. who had the name first. indisputable the greeks. so if greece allows the r.o.m. to use the name it is official! e.g. nike allows to a no-name manufactor to use its logo or name-can you imagine that? off course not. but in this case we are talking about a country´s name with people etc. it is a very delicate topic and understandable because of the very fragile situation in r.o.m. , many ethicities, albanians hoping for autonomy etc. so the use of the name macedonia makes a compromise for all ethnicities there, it has a glory history etc. but nobody of its inhabitants whether albanians, bulgarians, turks, romas etc. neither the slawo-macedonians can be connected with the macedonian civilisation or culture. therefor the use is illegal but understandable. the r.o.m. people should understand this, it is no provocation by the greeks for the individual person but the greeks feel theft about the use of the name. so greece has to decide in negotiations with the r.o.m. about solutions fot the future. in the past the area was called vardarska banovina. what is so wrong with this name? the river of vardar is located there- no greek would dispute this name. why provoking the greeks on purpose? remember that the glory history of greece showed that they never took wrong positions (e.g. II world war etc.) and this will show also in the future that greece has a reason to not accept this name. imagine a part of mexico will gain independancy and they proclaim the name republic of texas or republic of california(there is allready a part in mexico which uses the name california- but this is not a country only a state in mexico) Nestore 08:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Well,Chris,do u know anything about real valdalism and who is doing it?this article have changed many times...and everytime that the greek point of view was added,it was immediately changed and'protected'.i do not know why it is so hard for people in wikipedia to understand that the country's name is 'FYROM' at the moment!wheather u like it or not,this is the internationally recognised name... Furthermore,in the demographics section,there is neither official estimate for the greek minority,nor unofficial estimates for the vlach and greek minorities...whereas in the section of the demographics of greece there is an 'unofficial estimate' for supposedly 'macedonian' minority-an overestimation,i have to say.this happens also in the section about 'Macedonians'.everything that u claim as 'protected' is just anti-hellenic.i can't get it...it is simply not fair!anyways,i have been sick with all the word usage of the name Macedonia,from people who have not a single knowledge of history...if u had made a bit searching and studying in history facts,u would be the one who would change this article(or at least let the others to do so).at least be wise and allow the opinions of both sides(till the dispute is solved)...but i guess your pro-skopjian feelings will not allow u to do so... what can i say?just letting u make some company with your ahistorical and antiscientific thoughts... if i have misunderstoond u,i will take what i say back,but i guess i haven't...
I made an edit to the first paragraph of the article while I wasn't logged in(IP:220.245.178.137) in which I changed the wording to make note of the fact that the name used by international oranisations such as the UN is being used provisionally ie. temporary until the dispute is resolved. It was edited by Macedonian citing propaganda, and I assume he feels it was POV in some way, which I see as unlikely as I am a Macedonian, and I hope growing up in Australia means I am relatively NPOV. Either way, RoM is in fact referred to by the UN as FYROM provisionally, in fact I believe the declaration welcoming RoM into the UN even states that.
Also something that has been edited two times recently is the word 'was' in the following sentence:
"Due to the naming dispute between the Government of the Republic and the Government of Greece (one of Greece's northern regions is also called Macedonia), the country was referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in its admission to the United Nations."
My edit changed the 'was' to 'is', which is factually correct as far as I can tell, seeing as Macedonia is still referred to by international organisations as FYROM.
I wouldn't mind some feedback here before I change this again, so that it isn't edited more times. --Gorast 05:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I would agree that the "was" should be "is" as ut is misleading. was meansn that the U.N. don't refer to Macedonia as F.Y.R.O.M but as something else that is not stated here, so... R.O.M. Sorry for changing before I see this discussion. Steve
The editors who are in favour of "was" instead of "is" are aware of an international treaty about the name dispute between RoM and Greece? I am not. +MATIA ☎ 17:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The admission to the U.N. is an event which occured in the past. Hence "was" is the correct verb; "is" is simply not ideomatic and sounds very odd in the context of that sentence to this native speaker of English. The article has info later about the continuing dispute where the present tense is used, so there is no need to stand gramatical use on its head in this sentence. Jonathunder 17:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
It still looks (to this en:2 editor) like a dejavu of the UN-is-not-official edit-war (or content dispute if you prefer) that took place two months ago. +MATIA ☎ 17:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I've protected the article from moves following the latest outbreak of anonymous vandalism (the vandal has been blocked, btw). -- ChrisO 08:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Matia's wording is more accurate - countries "now recognise it under its constitutional name for bilateral diplomatic relations" rather than "now recognise it under its official name". FYROM is an official name too; it's mostly used in multilateral contexts, where Greek delegations need to be kept happy, rather than bilateral relations, where they don't. -- ChrisO 00:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
User:Miskin wants to replace this:
with this, based on a Britannica entry:
This just goes to show that you shouldn't blindly trust Britannica - it's wrong. The FYROM name was adopted by the UN General Assembly, not by the Republic of Macedonia. See UN General Assembly Resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, which is where the name comes from. As I understand it, the FYROM name is always used by foreigners to refer to the RoM, not by the RoM to refer to itself. Perhaps our Macedonian friends can confirm my understanding of this? -- ChrisO 18:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The Britannica article means that the Macedonian Slavs accepted it and eventually signed the papers to accept its official use. It doesn't imply that they suggested it nor that they ever supported it. Miskin 18:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The Albanians shouldn't be talking here, thats between Macedonians and Greeks. Arne
When you say Macedonians, do you mean the Slavs? I'm Macedonian and I'm neither Slav or Greek! Svetlyo 01:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)Svetlyo
Yeah, aaaand...? Miskin 18:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that Bulgarians should stop editting Macedonian sites as YOU ARE NOT MACEDONIANS! - Arne
Macedonia is Bulgarian and the proof is that what you want to call "Macedonian" language derives from the Bulgarian Language, Both Greeks and Slavs rewrite the HISTORY, check this : http://www.macedoniainfo.com/10_Lies_Macedonism.htm Svetlyo 01:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
YOU READ THIS PAGE, ITS FROM CANADIAN SOURCES
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov1.html -Arne
I suggest that Bulgarians and Skopjans stop editing Makedonian sites as NEITHER OF YOU ARE GREEK, SO NEITHER OF YOU CAN BE MAKEDONIAN! Its as simple as that. Since you have no history of your own, that doesn't mean you have to steal you're neighbors!
EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT RESOLUTION ON WESTERN BALKANS At the same time, it voted down the amendments urging the Council to recognize FYROM under its constitutional name (139 in favor, 398 against and 26 abstentions). http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=522728
Government: conventional long form: Republic of Macedonia conventional short form: Macedonia; note - the provisional designation used by the UN, EU, and NATO is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) local long form: Republika Makedonija local short form: Makedonija former: People's Republic of Macedonia, Socialist Republic of Macedonia https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html
Vergina 19:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with FlavrSavr. Sorry, but from this endless dispute and POV pushings, all the good ideas are spinning around like the Earth round the Sun... Bomac 19:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
"Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is member of United Nations and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe . Vergina 19:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I made a small change. +MATIA ☎ 21:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that MATIA neutralised the article, so there is no need of the POV-tag. Bomac 19:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
To keep the record straight - UN does not refer to Macedonia as FYROM but only as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Both long and short names in use in UN are the same - "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Check these link:
UN site search for "former yugoslav republic of macedonia" - 17500 results and UN site search for FYROM - 606 results
I consider that usage of FYROM is just an error - Macedonia and Greece agreed on use of "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" not FYROM. Also, ISO defines this ISO 3166-1 record:
"Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of (MK, MKD, 807)"
We can see this at UN member states
By resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, the General Assembly decided to admit as a Member of the United Nations the State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over its name.
Considering the fact that more than 100 countries and 3 permenent members (out of 5) comprising more than 90% of Earth population recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name I suggest that we directly omit using "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" at all, but only the constitutional name. As Wikipedia does for every other country in the world.
There is no dispute about when to use RoI and Ireland, and clear rules about when not to use Éire. There is no comparison with the FYROM dispute. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
TITLE: Country Names
SERIES: Terminology Bulletin
No.: No.347/REV.1
LANGUAGE: M.
SALES #: 97.I.19
ISBN: 9210020685
SYMBOL: ST/CS/SER.F/347/REV.1/CORR.1
PAGES: 84pp.
PRICE: $20.00
DESCRIPTION: Compendium of country names in Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish listed in English alphabetical order. It includes names of the United Nations Member States and members of specialized agencies such as the International Court of Justice.
Therefore, I will remove all occurences of FYROM from the article.
Kirev 01:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a country which was a part of Jugoslavia,where a lot of people are Albanians,where they speak a bulgarian dialekt,and they want to have a greek name(makos in ancient greek means tall).user talk:makedonas--Makedonas 12:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
1. "a lot of people are 'Albanians'", not true, there are more 'Albanians' in Greece.
2. "where they speak a bulgarian dialekt" not true, beter see: "Cyrillic alphabet" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic) and "Early Cyrillic alphabet" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Cyrillic_alphabet)
question: the root of Cyrilic Letter is at?
3. "they want to have a greek name", and again, not true. It will be very very helpfull if anyone from Greece can write down Greek name for: Filip, Aleksandar, Elena, Gjorgji etc. ... then you will see the main difference between Macedonians and Greeks, and how can Filip or Alexandar be Greeks when Greeks don't have such names in their culture ... Exapmple 1: Filip = Filipos (or something like this) Exapmple 2: Alexander = Aleksandros (or something like this)
and at the end = FYROM = Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia, FY are just "markers" to distinct (by greek belives) Macedonia from their Macedonia, and the backend of this is that the greek are affraid that Macedonians will ask for peace of land which was taken by Greeks, anyway as they say "Former Yugoslavian", it can be said for them to: "Former Otoman Empire Of Greece" ...
Truth 1.25% of the population of FYROM is Albanians - in Greece the Albanians are economic emigrants!
Truth 2.in FYROM speak a bulgarian dialect - I speak bulgarian and I speak FYROM's dialect and I know the difference! It is very funny to say that it is another language. How can you think that you can make a new language by changing 2 letters in the alphabet and 10 words in the vocabulary? The Greek dialect we speak in my village in Greece has much more differences with Greek than your dialect with Bulgarian.
Truth 3.Macedonia is a greek name - see the etymology of the word!About the names Alexandros/Αλέξανδρος or Filippos/Φίλιππος see how ancient Macedonians and Greeks was writting them, and you will understand that Aleksandar and Filip are just the slavic translation.
Truth 4.FYROM is Tito's invention - what can I say about it? The history of this absurdity started last century and of course the FYROMians try with every way to convince that they have right. But the nations which don't have history or forget their history, don't have futur!--Makedonas 22:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Names and Alphabet
Names: Alexander, or Alekasandar, Philip of Filip, etc. These names are compound Greek words. Αλέξανδρος (Αλέξ and ανδρος) = He who repels/pushes men away. Many compound Greek words bear the same first bit (i.e. the words for waterproof raincoats, umbrellas, bullet-proof vests, etc because they are things that repel something, i.e. rain, bullets, etc). Φίλιππος (Φίλος and ίππος) = friendly to horses (i.e. horse admirer, tamer, etc).
Cyrilic Alphabet: Two Greek Orthodox monks Cyrilous and Methodius (Κυριλος and Μεθόδιος) from Thessaloniki (second largest city of Greece) went to Slavic countries (especially Bulgaria), studied the languages and dialects spoken and created an alphabet to incorporate all. The alphabet is refered to as Cyrilic. A lot of the letters come from the Greek alphabet. A great number of words are of Greek origin.
Without trying to be insulting here, i thing it is a wise idea to know hard facts prior to making any claims. The claim that the above names do not belong in the Greek vocabulary when they are actually Greek compound words that are used on an every day basis, is absurd. Furthermore, it would be a good idea not to write anything when not certain. In this way, phrases like "or something like this" (see above) will be avoided. --TheVirus 01:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Truth 1: In FOPOG (Former Ottoman Province of Greece) are between 800 000 – 1000 000 Albanians (many of them are from Cameria, a region in FOPOG annexed in 1912 inhabited with Albanians many centuries before).
Truth 2: Macedonian language is one of the six natural Slavic languages: Belarusian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Russian, Serbian, Ukrainian and you can check this here: . Probably you have no much connections with the real world in your village, so that is why you come with such a funny statements.
Truth 3: Ancient Macedonians are completely different from Ancient Greeks. Every historians knows that, only you are blinded by your propaganda.
Truth 4: Macedonia is Macedonian invention: nobody can create a country if the citizens (Macedonians) don’t want that!! The theory that Macedonia is Tito’s invention comes mainly from imbecilic nationalists from FOPOG and other countries. FOPOG wants to steel Macedonian history, but you will not succeed in that, be sure! Makedonec 11:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
You make a blind propaganda because you cannot proof nothing of what you say-that's why you are anonymus!!!--Makedonas 10:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
One of the main rights of humans, as well as countries is the right to freely choose its name. One of the biggest insults for me is when somebody is trying to change the name of another one. This time I will not respond to the insults posted by User:Makedonas, User:Nestore and User:Vergina because the language they are using is unacceptable for a serious site like Wikipedia (Just to quote the last comment by User:Makedonas: This is a country which was a part of Jugoslavia,where a lot of people are Albanians,where they speak a bulgarian dialekt,and they want to have a greek name)!!!???. For me it is very difficult to understand the offensive position of Greeks trying to change the name of its neighboring country, so I will try to dig in the history and in the recent events in order to find an answer why Greece is doing this.
--Bitola 14:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Take a look at the following sentence:Greece is a country which was part of the Ottoman Empire, where a lot of people are Turks, where they speak some dialect and they want to have the Macedonian name. Probably you would agree that the sentence is stupid, but I’m thinking the same for the sentence you are defending. This sentence is stupid because its only purpose is to deliver a personal insult to a person of Greek nationality. If for no other reason, it's stupid because it comes from a "Macedonian Slav" whose ethnic group was ironically for some 1000 years under Greek occupation, then some 600 under Ottoman and finally some 100 under Serbian. So seeing an ethnic "Macedonian Slav" making such derogatory insults towards any other nationality whatsoever, is just laughable. However the sentence that you initially regarded as a racial slur has no fallacy in it, Macedonia is a Greek word, FYROM was part of Yugoslavia, and its only arguable point is on the language/dialect status between Macedonian Slavic and Bulgarian. I think the parallel you brought up with Serbian and Croatian has the opposite effect from the ones you desired as it backs up my point rather than refusing it. Croatian is regarded as a separate language for purely sociopolitical reasons. Miskin 18:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
How do you expect to be taken seriously after coming up with such imbecilic statements? I bet you copy/pasted that from a Macedonian Slav nationalist site and brought it here as some kind of revolutionary evidence. Honestly, stop hating people and get a life man. Miskin 18:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a country which was a part of Jugoslavia,where a lot of people are Albanians,where they speak a bulgarian dialect,and they want to have a greek name(makos in ancient greek means tall). This is a discussion page,and this is my opinion about fyrom.These are facts,so I don't think I insult anybody.About the subject of 'language' or 'dialect' I can say that I speak the bulgarian language and the bulgarian dialect of fyrom and I know that the greek language and the greek cypriot dialect have much more differences than the two first.If you read well this simple sentence you can understand many things.user talk:makedonas--Makedonas 13:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Greece is a country which was part of the Ottoman Empire, where a lot of people are Turks, where they speak some dialect and they want to have the Macedonian name. This is my opinion about your country and these are also facts. You once were part of the Ottoman Empire, you have big Turkish minority in the eastern part of the country, every part of Greece uses some specific dialect of the greek language and you are claiming the ownership of the name Macedonia. About the Macedonian language: this language is recognized as official in our country and it is different from any other language in the world. That fact is recognized by many relevant international linguistic institutions. I can assure you that I have many friends in Macedonia that simply don't understand Bulgarian at all. Simply, Macedonian language is not a dialect of Bulgarian no matter how much you are trying to repeat your claim hoping that it will become true.--Bitola 15:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Greece is a country which was part of the Ottoman Empire, where a lot of people are Turks, where they speak some dialect and they want to have the Macedonian name. ok this is an opinion but you are trying to copy my opinion for making impression without any search.I lived some years in Bulgaria,and I came many times in Bitola because I have friends there and I say what I saw and I heard there.About your opinion I know that all Balkans were under Ottomas,that the muslim minority in Thrace are no more than 100,000,that we speak some greek dialects in Greece,and that Macedonia has about 3000 years greek history(Εστίν ούν Ελλας και η Μακεδονία(=Macedonia is also Greece)Stravon-geographer 1st century B.C.) user talk:makedonas--Makedonas 20:54, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
What about non- Macedonians (nation) Macedonians (region) whp still want to remain Macedonians (region). Do they have to stop calling themselves Macedonians (region) or do they have to rename the region where they leave? Move to Macedonia (state) from Macedonia (region)? How many years do you Macedonian region) Greeks, Bulgarian Macedonians (region) and Macedonians (nation) want to spend over this problem that has no solution? Lets break the rope with a knife like Alexander did, You need better politisians you Macedonians (region) and Macedonians (nation) Svetlyo 18:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
i didn't say that you don't have the right to call yourself Macedonian, I just say that this creates lifetime problems with the non- Macedonian (nation) Macedonians (state) populations within your country and causes them to be called minorities and causes problems with Macedonian (region) Greeks who also are taught in their (rewritten?) history that are Macedonians (ancient nation), just because they are speaking the same language (I'm not sure about that, but if we still don't know the language of Alexander then it is very dangarous to fight over whether the name of his nation, at least Hitler we know that was German). Don't you understand that you will always have an enemy (Greece) and one inside your country (non Macedonian nation minorities) and all the consiquenses of that for a new country? Why don't you chose a non-nation name for your state and keep the Macedonian nationality. Is nationalism the flag for your new country? GO and make HISTORY MACEDONIANS you have all your future ahead, show to all stupid nationalist Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians what a conemporary county is and how much you have learned from your recent past about how old-fashioned and stupid nationalism is. Conquer the world culturaly and wellcome whoever wants to join you. Be a prototype for the world, havbev your golden era ahead and forthcoming instead of 2000 years ago, take the example of Italy (no reference to Romans) and Greece (reference to Hellens), most people would love to move to advanced Italy , none to corrupted and underdeveloped Greece. Svetlyo 19:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Did you ever read about the Greco-Italian War? Miskin
Yugoslavia was like America? That's an interesting point of view... So how come I've always had the impression that Yugoslavia refers mainly to Serbia, in the same way that the British Empire refers mainly to England? FYROM was indirectly under Serbian rule, so I really don't see where does this pride come from. As for FYROM entering the EU... hmm I don't know... 40% of the people have no jobs, some 50% is below poverty level, and there will almost certainly be a veto from Cyprus and Greece... hmm, could be tough. Well at least FYROM is a superpower (in agricultural sense), right? Miskin 21:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
WhY do people have the right to block users, if they edit a pro-greek comment? do you only support the slawo-macedonian attitude? this shares not the free mind of the free encyclopedia wikipedia, both sides should be heard, so that neutral readers can make their own conclusions.such editors who block the truth-loving edits should be blocked and reported to wikipedia. whith your current version the article is not neutral, absolutely pro-slawo-macedonian. let people freely edit the article and after time the slawo-makedonian arguments will quickly vanish. Nestore 16:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I would like to appeal to all editors of this very sensitive page. Please, don’t add info in large amounts that are changing completely the look of the article. I know that everyone wants to explain the history the best he can, but regarding the sensitivity of the article, make just minor corrections. Any bigger changes to the article should be previously discussed in the TALK page! I also want to ask the editors to stop adding info to the page that can be viewed as insulting to the readers from the other side. I noticed that, unfortunately, this behavior is commonly practiced in this page. --Bitola 17:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
You know, you can't say that, demand that, or request that. It goes against everything that Wikipedia stands for. Yes, no one should or has the right to add point of view text, but anyone has the right to add as much factual and relevant information to any article as he or she desires. After all, our motto is Be Bold!--naryathegreat | (talk) 19:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, before someone goes off on the note, I'll make this clear once: There was a template which basically said and did the same thing a few months ago. It was deleted by community consensus because it was a tautology--the statement is true of its own logic-- that Wikipedia does not endorse either side. That is our policy. It doesn't need to be stated in any article to appease any editors, be they Greek or otherwise.--naryathegreat | (talk) 19:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
It is only disputed by a very vocal few who are blinded by nationalist teachings, mainly Greeks, but also some Macedonians. In that respect, the neutrality of the people who claim the article does not comply to the NPOV policy is easily non-existant on this subject. In the article's current form it clearly does not take any sides, and the tag should be removed as it serves only to mislead those not familiar with the subject.--Gorast 04:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
We all agree (I think) that "Macedonia" refers to a wider geographic region. This wider geographic region includes the FYROM, a huge part of Northern Greece (actually more heavily populated than the whole of FYROM) and part of Bulgaria. Hell, in anchient times it included part of India as well!
Keeping this in mind, isn't it a bit selfish for a nation to want to monopolise this name? Imagine for example that it wanted to call itself "Balkania". Wouldn't that be immediately offensive towards the other countries of the Balkan Peninsula? How about calling itself "Europe"! Wouldn't the rest Europeans object to that?
To give another example, imagine Portugal, wanting to change its name to "Iberia" (from the Iberian Peninsula). Wouldn't Spaniards object? What about Sweden change its name to "Scandinavia". You think Norwegians or Fins would be OK? Or even the mighty, huge and most populated country in the world: China, wanting to change its name to "Asia". Wouldn't that offend all other Asian countries?
I think the countries of the world should stop and think a little bit, before recognising this state with the name its leaders want it to be recognised. I think that nation itself should think about what Pandora's box is about to be openned if anybody in the world claims any name they want for their country to be called. -Nikolas
Bitola, Happy New Year to you too, even in the case you do not love my country. I gave you 4 examples of how it can be offensive for others to monopolise a name of a region (I can give you a few... hundred more -like Australia to "Oceania", South Africa to just Africa, Thailand to Polynesia etc etc) and you only came up with Luxembourg. If you read about Luxembourg and Belgium (why not in Wikipedia), you'll see that these two nations were founded at the same time around 1830 after splitting from The Netherlands.
As for Greece using to call "Northern Greece" our Macedonia, I must say that this whole story doesn't fit. Do you have a fact proving this? Or you just say it because you heard it from someone from your people? My father (65) was taught of the Macedonia district in his elementary school in 1947. Nobody has ever heard of... forbidding the word Macedonia (!!!). Greek Macedonia was liberated from the Turks in the First World War. After that, the Second World War followed, and after that Greece was in civil war (Democrats vs Communists). But, suppose for a moment you are right: Suppose, Greeks didn't want to call it Macedonia for a period of 3 to 5 decades. Does that mean that any neighbor can utilise and monopolise a name and a history behind it that lasts for 3 to 5 MILLENIA and it is all Greek?
Unless ofcourse you doubt that this history is Greek! The very name of Filippos (Filos=friend and ippos=horse) and Alexandros (Alex=proof like in bullet-proof and Andras=Man, meaning the guy was man-proof or invincible by men). Did you know that? Why wasn't he called "Maz^obran" (like your word "gromobran" for lightning arrestor)?
-Nikolas
Romani and Aromanian in Macedonia, where both languages were recognized as official in the Macedonian constitution of 1991. Is this true? The other languages were Macedonian, Albanian, Turkish, and Serbian. Bonaparte talk 10:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Nikolas, I think it would be better if you can create a user profile on Wikipedia if you already don’t have one and to sign properly after your edits on the discussion page. About the discussion, you have several assertions and I will try to provide the answers:
1 assertion: Keeping this in mind, isn't it a bit selfish for a nation to want to monopolise this name? Imagine for example that it wanted to call itself "Balkania". Wouldn't that be immediately offensive towards the other countries of the Balkan Peninsula?
My answer: What about United States of America? Isn’t America the name of a whole continent? Following your logic, USA is monopolizing the name of a continent. Moreover, if we follow your logic, then Greece shouldn’t use the name Macedonia at all, because it is also a monopolization of the name. I’m sorry to repeat again that the Republic of Macedonia never disputed the right of Greece to use the term Macedonia for its northern part, Greece is the one that tries to deny our right to use that name.
2 assertion: As for Greece using to call "Northern Greece" our Macedonia, I must say that this whole story doesn't fit. Do you have a fact proving this? Or you just say it because you heard it from someone from your people? My father (65) was taught of the Macedonia district in his elementary school in 1947
My answer: Yes, I have facts and I will provide 2 of them:
In the article written by John Shea in 1997 you can find this:
Peter Hill, professor of Slavonic studies at the University of Hamburg in Germany, makes a similar point: Funnily enough, northern Greece was for many years called just that, "Northern Greece"... and the name Macedonia was considered somehow suspect.... But three years ago that all changed. Now that name, Macedonia, is at the heart of it dispute that has paralyzed the foreign policy of the European Community and brought thousands of people on to the streets of Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra and Brussels.
In the article from the Diplomatic observer site you can find this:
Between 1912-13 and 1988, Macedonia of Aegean is officially called North Greece and “the North Greece Ministry was founded for the area, all these shows that Greece itself hasn’t mentioned this area as “Macedonia” for 75 years. Indeed Macedonia of Aegean was called “Northern Greece” until 1988 and after then it began to be called “Macedonia” Macedonia-Thrace” with a code of law. These lands have been called Macedonia for at least 1500 years by the Slavic and Macedonian residents as well as by the Albanian and the Ulahs peoples. On the other hand, not only the Hellenism of Macedonia but the Greece’s historical continuity which is taken back to 4000 years ago is imagination of Greek education policy and its historical perceptions.
3 assertion: Does that mean that any neighbor can utilise and monopolise a name and a history behind it that lasts for 3 to 5 MILLENIA and it is all Greek? Unless ofcourse you doubt that this history is Greek!
My answer:In the same article written by John Shea you can find this:
The name Macedonia was not used until the second century B.C., and it was applied to the country by the Macedonian king, not by a Greek. The term "Macedon' and the expression "land of the Macedons" were used long before that time, though there is debate about the origins of the word "Macedon." Philologists are not certain of its derivation, though Greeks prefer to think that the word comes from Greek. In any case, neither the ancient Macedonians nor the ancient Greeks thought that the Macedonians were Greek; thus the name the Macedonians used for their land must surely belong to them alone.
While it is true to say that the name Macedonia has been applied to Aegean Macedonia for a long time, "more than 3000 years" is pushing things just a little. Twenty-three hundred to twenty-six hundred years would be closer to the mark. However, most of the territory of the present Republic of Macedonia has also had that name for the same period of time. Although the boundaries of that land called Macedonia have changed from time to time under the rule of the Romans (this includes the period of Byzantium), the Bulgarians, the Serbians, the Turks and the Greeks, all historical analyses, even those emanating from Greeks, show certain territories to have been part of Macedonia since the time of Alexander the Great. Included in these territories are Skopje, Stobi, and Herakleia. (later Monastir/Bitola). These towns come close to the northern and western boundaries of the present Republic of Macedonia. They have been Macedonian since before the great empire. The territory that is now northern Greece has also been an important part of Macedonia since ancient times, though most of this territory was not a part of the first Macedonian kingdom, but was gradually incorporated into that kingdom as Macedonian power grew.
It is fine to say that Macedonia, meaning the history of ancient Macedonia, is an indispensable part of Greece's heritage. Given that the Greeks occupy a major part of ancient Macedonian territory, this seems fair enough. The fact that the ancient Macedonians and Greeks despised each other, and that the Macedonians conquered the Greeks, need not be relevant to this aspect of modern political life. However, it does seem quite paradoxical for Greeks to choose as a national symbol a recently discovered emblem used by the hated overlords of ancient times (the Macedonians). The implication that there is a coherent ethnic group existing today, living only in northern Greece, that we could recognize as "Macedonian"- people who have a strong line of descent from the ancient Macedonians - simply cannot be substantiated.
Nikolas, I’m asking you and other Greek contributors to this article to read more independent articles about the history written by neutral journalist and historians, because it is not correct to supply only Greek point of view on the issue. --Bitola 16:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Bitola,
Let's keep our answers short.
1. Thanks for the USA example. USA is NOT monopolising the name. That's why it has US before A. If you had North or Slavic or whatever you feel describes your un-homogenious population BEFORE Macedonia, I would be of those Greeks that would say OK. What I -personally- don't understand is ONLY Macedonia. The strict policy of Greece for NO Macedonia in the title is a diplomatic result of your stubborn foreign policy to be called Macedonia -period. And to avoid any misunderstanding, I would say OK, ONLY if it was absolutely clear from your part that the name has to do ONLY with geography. NOT with ethnicity, NOT with history, NOT with Megas Alexandros, NOT with Vergina and its sun, NOT with absolutely anything else. We understand that you as a multi-ethnicity nation need something in common to keep you united, but you cannot use Greek history to do so, because you are not Greek.
2. I don't need "independent" (???) historians to tell me how my father, his friends and his whole generation were taught Macedonia (within Greek borders) was called. I would make my answer too lengthy if I included texts from other independent historians that say the opposite from yours. Why does it have to be someone else from outside that tells me how he THINKS it was told when my parents and their friends will tell me what their OWN EARS HEARD?
3. Before 1988 when... the ministry was renamed, tell your "independent" guy that I was finishing school. I still have my ATLAS from first grade (1976). Guess what? MACEDONIA with big letters on it (published 1969 and unchanged since). By the way, Northern Greece has TWO DISTRICTS: Macedonia and THRACE. The ministry was renamed to what Northern Greece is COMPOSED OF. We also have STEREA HELLAS, PELOPONISSOS, THESSALIA and IPIROS on the mainland plus Dodekanese, Cyclades, North Aegean Islands and Heptanese. These all are DISTRICTS of the Greek nation.
4. It is as stupid to say that Anchient Macedonians were not Greek because they were the enemies of Anchient Greeks as it is to say that Anchient Spartans or Anchient Thevans were not Greek because they were the enemies of Anchient Athenians. They were ALL Greek, they all spoke Greek and they were fighting each other all the time. They would stop war to participate in the Olympics though, (as all Greeks and ONLY Greeks would) and they would unite to fight some bigger enemy, such as the Persians. My congratulations to the "independent" historian whose text you quote!!! Kindly tell him to take the time to read some Anchient Greek historians (unless ofcourse you think they were biased too because they... anticipated you would come some thousands of years later to claim a Greek name!!!)
5. Philologists are ABSOLUTELY certain that the name Macedonia IS Greek, like they are certain that the names Sparta, Athena, Thiva, Thrace, Ipiros, Lakedemonia etc etc etc are Greek. On top of that, the word MAKEDNOS means long-bodied in Anchient Greek, as first written by Homer in Odyssey, when he was describing a tall tree thousands of years even before the time of Megas Alexandros (was Homer biased too???).
-Nikolas (still not with a user profile, but not for long)
Greeks are famous by their myths and I understand your fascination with the myth that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. Even if that is true, it doesn’t give you a right to tell me who I am. Forgive me, but your intention to tell me who I am, what is my name, my nation, my language, my history are ridiculous for me. You would say OK for me and my country to use the name Macedonia if it has nothing with our ethnicity, history, Great Alexander, Vergina etc. I would say the opposite, Macedonia is our fatherland, we have Macedonian ethnicity, we have Macedonian history, Macedonian language etc. You are talking about your grandfather, parents and their feelings. I will tell you that I’m feeling as a Macedonian, my parents and their friends are feeling as Macedonians, my grandfather and my grandmother are also feeling as Macedonians, they told me that their parents and grandparents were also Macedonians etc. You know what, I have also an atlas from my primary school and, guess what, my country is also called MACEDONIA with big letters. Since I was born, I’m filling as a Macedonian and you can stand on your head, but that will no change my opinion and my identity at all. --Bitola 09:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Greeks are famous by their myths and I understand your fascination with the myth that ancient Macedonians were Greeks
I heard many times from slavians in fyrom that Macedonians weren't Greeks.However nobody gave me any proof for this.Why should I believe you?Why someone should believe you?The greek users say that Macedonia has 3000 years greek history, based on thousad ancient and recent historical texts,facts,symbols,language etc etc...And the answer from the other side is that all these,are greek myths(!)...and what is your opinion,which hasn't any base??? The only thing that we can't do,is to bring you live Great Alexander to proove that he was Greek.But I am sure that even if that will happened the slavians would say that Alexander is drunk,without-of course searching for alcohol in his blond.
It is very simply to say something-the difficult is to proove it,and Greeks proove every word they say!..The other side just say that this is only a myth(!)So is this a myth,that ancient Macedonians spoke greek?Is this a myth,that ancient Macedonians believed in greek Gods?Is this a myth,that Alaxander united all greeks against Persians?Is this a myth,that only Macedonians could take part in the olympic games,where only greeks could take part?Is this a myth,that the words Makedonia,Alexandros etc. has greek origin?Is this a myth,that slavians came in the region on 6th cent. AD?Is this a myth,that it was Tito's idea to rename the south part of Yugoslavia from Vardarska Bavodina to "Macedonia"?
I think that the fyromians,without any proofs for what they say,live their own myth and I don't understand why they are trying to convice,that they are right!They just say that the "bad" Greeks don't let them use the name they choosed to call themselves.
Maybe after many thousands years,the people will say a myth(like those of Aesopus) that some people in the center of a penislula tried to make a nation,by stealing something from each of their neighbours,but they didn't know that the nations which have no history,have no futur.Any similarity with anything in the story is just coincidense.
Except from the name dispute (I think that the solution now,should be something like "Република на Вардарска Македониja" only for separating greeks and slavians) I think that the two countries have many common thinks and the solution will be good for the two sides.--Makedonas 17:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Of course that you have an illusion that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. Can’t you see that only Greeks have that opinion and nobody other is supporting your position? You never believe in the independent historians that are telling opposite meaning than yours. Let’s for example look at the following writings presented by the Eugene Borza. If you don’t know who is Eugene Borza, take a look at the following site: . I will present some text from his article presented at the Annual meeting of the American Philological Association :
I’m little tired arguing with you (Miskin, Makedonas, Nikolas etc) because you don’t want to hear nothing different from you narrow-minded view on the problem and I’m planning to quit for a while this meaningless discussion with you. --Bitola 18:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Bitola,
You seem to like quotes. Get a hold of this:
"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])
"Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably." (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])
"Now, that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know." (Herod. V, 22, 1 [Loeb])
The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos" (Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)
"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek; so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."(Herod. V, 22, 2)
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."(John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)
"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek" (Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}
"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)
The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games "Men of Athens... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon."(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)
It is common for people who live in a lie to think that everybody else is wrong. I am not afraid that you may convince anybody, I am only afraid that you have convinced yourselves. Keep in mind though, the more you hold to this unhistorical and surreal propaganda, the more people will mock you and the more ridicule of yourselves you become!
I created a user account. Now, instead of Nikolas, I am NikoSilver 20:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Quite frankly, this is a joke. Wikipedia is NPOV without question. No, of course we do not take a position on the naming issue. I don't care if you are Greek or Macedonian or Mongolian, there's something blatantly wrong about it. It doesn't matter if consensus was supposedly established "2 years" ago. The deletion of the template confirms that the community by and large does not want this type of note, nor does it condone it. And, of course, the UN's decisions and resolutions have no basis or power here, we do not abide by them, and they are not in any way in authority over this project, but the inclusion in that location of the statment suggests otherwise. It's fine to include the note in the article that the UN uses the name FYROM; I'm not in any way disputing that, but it should be part of the article, not a note which suggests we blindly follow UN decisions (which are POV in and of themselves).
This article suffers from a lack of mature editors. It represents the way Wikipedia's system of compromise can fail when this page turns into a soapbox for Greeks and Macedonians to yell at each other about supposed ancient ethnic groups and language relations, subjects at which any of us, including me, are hardly experts. By clinging to childish notions of who owns a name and attempting to boss others around against their will makes Wikipedia look bad. The final say in the matter ought to have been long ago that the common name by an overwhelming majority in English is the use Macedonia, which nothing will ever change, hence my comment, "get a grip" (as in of reality!). However, if every controversial article on Wikipedia doesn't need such a note, then why does this one? There really is nothing special about this controversy. We should work together, not tear each other apart. It's time for some of us to be big, let go of our pride, and work to make Wikipedia better, which is simply the obligation of each and every editor here. Therefore, the note does not belong on this article and the Wikipedia community as a whole will never condone such things. Quite simply, it just makes us look bad. Again, no problem with including the UN's resolution or the fact that there's a naming dispute or a link to the article; but, lets be mature, do the right and honorable thing, and put the facts where they belong: in NPOV text which strengthens the article.--naryathegreat | (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Support. (I couldn't help it. The above comment summarizes all of my previous thoughts about this problem, given at various talk pages.). Also, there is a specific policy about naming conflicts - Wikipedia:Naming conflict. --FlavrSavr 03:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Support. Bitola 10:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
"New Democracy", a center-right wing party that was in power in the early nineties - and it again is now -, used the situation to gain acceptance. "We'll solve the macedonia naming problem soon" or sth they said. They didn't solve or changed anything whatsoever. "Pasok" the center-left wing party used that result for it's own propaganda about how horribly New Democracy failed and stuff. There were tv spots about it 24/7. Greeks here that remember 1993 know what I'm talking about. I suspect that the naming issue would be much less important in Greece if those two parties weren't fighting for votes.
ps. I've posted this story to the proper foreign relations of the republic discussion page as well but it seems lots of people like to make a mess about the naming issue all over the place, forgive me if I contribute to the mess, but at least here I sign it properly --Fs 07:28, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I’m admitting a new proposal about the look of the article that I believe can chill out the edit war that is occurring for months here. Namely, I’m deeply convinced (I believe other editors have noticed that as well) that this edit war is triggered by the naming dispute between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece. That causes different editors to make different changes on the same sentences that are related with the naming dispute and it causes the recent look of the article that, we must confess, is really bad written.
For example, we have the naming issue in the first section:
The Republic of Macedonia¤(Macedonian: Република Македонија) is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. It is commonly referred to as Macedonia, but this can cause confusion with the wider geographical region of Macedonia. Due to a dispute between the governments of the Republic of Macedonia and Greece, the United Nations refer to the country as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) (Macedonian: Поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија (ПЈРМ)) since it has become a member state in 1993. The UN, the European Union and other international organisations as well as individual countries use that designation. Other countries now recognise the Republic under its constitutional name for bilateral diplomatic relations.However, since then the country has been embroiled in a prolonged political dispute with Greece concerning its use of the name "Macedonia". Nonetheless, this situation has not prevented the two countries engaging in military and security co-operation, cross-border investments and cultural exchanges.
Also in the International relations section:
The Republic of Macedonia (with the provisional reference "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia") is…
The Republic of Macedonia, since its independence in 1991, has been embroiled in a dispute with Greece and Bulgaria over the country's official name, national symbols, and constitution. One of Greece's northern regions and Bulgaria's western regions areas also called Macedonia; overall, many Greeks object to the Republic using the name "Macedonia" for its constitutional name, and many Bulgarians object to its using the term "Macedonian" in reference to its language because they view it as a Bulgarian dialect.The dispute over the Republic's national symbols and constitution was resolved in an agreement reached between the Republic and Greece in 1995, but no solution has yet been reached on the naming issue. Athens has also accepted for the Republic to include the term "Macedonia / Makedonja" but only if it is accompanied by a qualitative that distinguishes it from the Greek province of Macedonia.
Also in the Ethnicities section:
The Republic of Macedonia is an ethnically diverse country. About 64% of its population - some 1.3 million people - belong to people how call themselves Macedonians, people of dominantly Slavic origin; their ethnic identity is disputed in name by Greece and in affiliation by Bulgaria.
I deeply believe that it is not correct to mention the naming dispute in every section of the article and for that reason I created a new section called “Naming dispute” and put everything related to the dispute there (and removed it from the other sections). I hope that this will be accepted by Macedonians and Greeks and it will introduce a good starting point for future improvements of the article. --Bitola 10:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Asteraki, please do not introduce again the naming dispute in the sections other than the section called "Naming dispute". As I can see, you are returning back the disputed content in the first section .I deliberately created the "Naming dispute" section because the mentioning of the dispute problem in the other sections caused the edit war that is going on for the past several months. Otherwise I will assume that you are doing that deliberately in order to start again the edit war around this article. Bitola 10:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Hallo, I am new in this discusion. All I want to say is this. Wikipedia is NOT the place where you can promote your propaganda Wikipedia is NOT the place where you deal affairs between countries. The northern neighboor country of Greece (selfnamed Macedonia, Rebublic of Macedonia) with the international name F.Y.R.O.M. should be written in the English version of Wikipedia with the name that is accepted from both sides and from International organizations. The name FYROM means what it means and it doesn't satiafy Athens and Skopje but it is the least painful solution for both, up to this time at least. We are not here to solve who is wrong and who is right. It's side believes is right. I suggest to leave the politicians find the solution, when they will find it. From now on when I refer to we, I will mean all the users who don't like what is written to this site. We should agree that the name that should be shown in the english (international) version of wikipedia should be the international name of the country. In individual language related sites we should follow the behavior of the countries that have this language as official. As I said before, we are NOT diplomats and Wikipedia is NOT the place where you deal affairs between countries. If we don't do these thinks every user that will come around this site will edit it accourding to his beliefs and we will end in a neverending story. Language related issue: The people of FYROM name the language of their country as Macedonian. This is also sth that insults Greeks but as long as there is no alternative proposal (officially), I suggest to leave it as it is. This is my suggestion, up to the day, whenever this comes, where diplomats will come to an agreement. Panos78 17:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
F.Y.R.O.M is not the official, internacional name of the country. It is used in several international organizations, including UN and EU, but the Republic of Macedonia is the official and constitutional name of the country and therefore it is used in the article. The Republic of Macedonia accepted to be named as F.Y.R.O.M in the mentioned international organizations under pressure of Greece, but the country never changed its constitutional name (Republic of Macedonia). The reference FYROM also insults the Macedonians, but it is still present in the article. Most countries in the world are using the country's official, constitutional name in the bilateral communication with Macedonia, including the United States, China, Russia, several members of the EU and all neigboring countries of Macedonia except Greece: Serbia and Montenegro, Bulgaria and Albania. Wikipedia does not represent the UN or EU and there is no need here to use the insulting F.Y.R.O.M reference for your neigboring country. Goran
Maybe we should define what international name means! For me international name of a country is the name that this country is recognized by international organizations. As you said "Rebublic of Macedonia" is your constitutional name. But it is not the international name of the country because: 1. It is not the name that United Nations is using 2. It in not the name that European Council is using 3. It in not the name that European Union is using 4. Your country accepted the name FYROM for international affairs with the agreement in 1995. Even if 100 sth countries has recognized your constitutional name, this doesn't mean that your constitutional name is your international name.
The hole problem has to do with violation of copyright of the name Macedonia. It's side claims that has the copyright of the name. When this problem will be solved from diplomacy it will be pointless to discuss about it. But now that this is under negotiation, we should write to this article what is already been agreed.
1.Deutsch (themselves), 2.Tedesco (by Italians), 3.Allemagne (by French), 4.German (by English) 1.Hebrew, 2.Israeli, 3.Jews 1.French, 2.Gaulle 1.Hellas, 2.Greece, 3.Yunan (by Turks and Arabs), 4.Helip (by Chinese) NikoSilver 20:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
This bickering is pointless. Please, control yourselves! You are acting like children. Wikipedia isn't here to settle any naming dispute. Panos is right, Wikipedia is no place to introduce your own point of view. However, let's be honest with ourselves people. No one in the English language calls it the FYROM. No one calls it the RoM. We call it Macedonia, plain and simple. Wikipedia's policy is to go with the most widespread name in use. The decisions of international organizations or any government have little bearing here (although I'm personally willing to stay at Republic of Macedonia just for stability's sake). We operate according to our own policies. Personally, I agree with Bitola that the Naming dispute, since it is so central to all things concerning Macedonia, should get its own section. It shouldn't be mentioned without an important reason again. And for goodness' sake, the note has to go. This has gone on long enough. It's time for us all to act like mature and responsible people.--naryathegreat | (talk) 21:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I remove this content Why, ( Bomac - Can't sleep, clown will eat me )
flag of the independent republic, and not to mention Ancient Macedonia, which many Greeks also claim that have so-called exclusive rights over it). Greece can lodge a request for exclusive property rights over Europe, but that is not a barrier not to put the Vergina sun flag here, as a vital part of the Macedonian history. Let me remind you (as you said before): Wiki isn't propaganda platform, but it's a platform for facts. Only with that you write "FYROM", you are spreading propaganda, caus', nevertheless, FYROM still contains the word "Macedonia". Regards, Bomac 16:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
When independence was obtained in 1992, the flag of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia was retained until it was replaced with the flag with the so-called sun of Vergina.
The Vergina Sun was found on a gold larnax in the main burial chamber of Philip, located at Vergina, Imathia, Greece. The larnax (gold casket) which Andronikos identified as containing the remains of Philip II has a symbol of a sun or star on its lid, and this Vergina Sun has been adopted as a symbol of Greek Macedonia.[]
The Vergina Tombs - (The Hellenic Ministry of Culture) Museum in Greece []
The Present Flag adopted was adopted in 5 October 1995 and has been in use until now.
Meaning of the Flags - A Political Glimpse
The evolution of the FYROM flags stems from polical movements in the region. This is based chiefly on events that occurred in the 1940’s. As is evident, the idea of a “Macedonia” to these Slavic people came quite late, and most of us were alive when this occurred. This is quite obviously not the same people that fought with Alexander the Great. Those people lie South, in Macedonia Greece.
How the Idea Began: STALIN TO BULGARIAN DELEGATION (G. Dimitrov, V. Kolarov, T. Kostov) The Kremlin, 7 June 1946 Cultural autonomy must be granted to Pirin Macedonia within the framework of Bulgaria. Tito has shown himself more flexible than you - possibly because he lives in a multiethnic state and has had to give equal rights to the various peoples. Autonomy will be the first step towards the unification of Macedonia, but in view of the present situation there should be no hurry on this matter. Otherwise, in the eyes of the Macedonian people the whole mission of achieving Macedonian autonomy will remain with Tito and you will get the criticism. You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness has not yet developed among the population is of no account. No such consciousness existed in Belarus either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that Belarusian people did in fact exist. …
Thank you! --Asteraki 17:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Yea! You are right! Maz^obran's father, Ljubovkonj, was an ancestor of the Slavs who came in the area around 600 AD.
Note for those who don't speak slavobulgaronic: "Maz^-obran" is "Αλεξ-ανδρος" ("Alex-andros" or "Man-proof") and "Ljubov-konj" is "Φιλ-ιππος" ("Fil-ippos" or "Horse-friend")
By the way, Slavs were an exception to the fact that only Greeks would participate in the Olympic games, so Megas Alexandros and his athletes did participate and made a speech too. It is a detail, ofcourse, that in his speech he greeted his co-patriot Greeks and tried to assemble them against the common Persian enemy.
I perfectly know what that means. It means that he is "friend of the Greeks". It doesn't mean that he is actually a Greek. Bomac 14:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Finally, Anchient Macedonian language was not Anchient Greek, like Cretan or Cypriotic or Pontiac (nowdays) is not Greek due to pronounciation and vocabulary differencies, and Spartan, or Thevan or Corinthian etc was not Anchient Greek because they had pronounciation and vocabulary differencies from the nowdays official version of Anchient Greek which is how they spoke it in Athens (Attic Dialect).
Dear naryathegreat, Erath and Jonathunder. You can see now clearly, from what Bomac wrote, that these people want much more than the name. They want the history, the heroes and the whole glory behind them. How would you like it if some people claimed that Shakespeare, King Arthur or the Duke of Wellington were e.g. Argentinians? Because, you know, it is that obvious what a lie that is. NikoSilver 01:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Finally, to make the long story short, listen to your own people:
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians." Quote from FYROM'S President Mr.Kiro Gligorov.(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35.)
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
And if this is not enough for you:
"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])
"Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably." (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])
"Now, that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know." (Herod. V, 22, 1 [Loeb])
The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos" (Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)
"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek; so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."(Herod. V, 22, 2)
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."(John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)
"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek" (Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}
"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)
The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games "Men of Athens... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon."(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)
Please stop ridiculing yourselves by supporting such monstrous LIES. NikoSilver 19:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
With respect,Bomac,all u are doing is simply reproducting propaganda.NikoSilver has provided far enough proof that Ancient Macedonians and Alexander were Greek,and all u say is that the greeks historians play a 'dirty game'.I wonder if u think the same for the ancient greek historians too:was Herodotus and the others forced to say that macedonians are greek?!instead of mentioning a modern historian(whose apparently u do not mention the name)-i am talking about the writer of "The Macedonian knot"-use the ethnographic and linguistic material that was gathered by the ancient historians.everyone will agree that they new better!--Hectorian 13:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
1. It is obvious that many editors are taking the Macedonia dispute emotionally. I understand the fascination by the ancient Macedonians, but, I think that it is not correct to see the history just from the one side. For example, NikoSilver presents "history" facts that are completely taken from the one of the leading Greek nationalist sites.
I once said that I would not involve in the pointless discussions about who were ancient Macedonians and that this issue should be left to the historians, but regarding the repeated attempts to force the Greek view on the history, I will again provide several sentences taken from the sites that are neutral by my opinion.
The website is called Livius and it provides articles about the ancient history. It is maintained by the Holland historian Jona Lendering (more info about the author is present on the first page of the website). There is a lengthy article about Ancient Macedonia: and I think it provides an excellent, neutral description. I will present just a few sentences:
2. ...There are also Macedonian names that have no Greek parallel (Arridaeus or Sabattaras)… In many semi-literate societies, there is a difference between the spoken and the written language. It would not be without parallel if a Macedonian, when he wanted to make an official statement (or curse someone really profoundly), preferred decent Greek instead of his native tongue. Thirdly, almost all our sources are written in Greek, and it was a common practice in the Greek world to hellenize foreign names….The fact that Greek sources use Greek names for Macedonian people and deities does not prove very much about the Macedonian language … For example, there is evidence that Greeks were unable to understand people who were makedonizein, "speaking Macedonian". The Macedonian king Alexander the Great was not understood by the Greeks when he shouted an order in his native tongue and the Greek commander Eumenes needed a translator to address the soldiers of the Macedonian phalanx.
3. The Macedonians did not speak a Slavic language, which belongs to an altogether different branch of Indo-European, called Balto-Slavo-Germanic. Macedonian and Greek were related but different languages. .. Finally, it must be stressed that, unlike modern politicians and some modern scholars argue, language says not much about ethnicity. (People can speak Frisian and have a Dutch passport, whereas people speaking Dutch can live in Belgium and Surinam and feel offended when they are called Dutch.)
4 …These years were decisive for the development of the Greek and Macedonian self-image. Until then, they had probably seen each other as different but related nations; after 479, relations worsened and two new cultural and ethnic identities started to grow. Darius and Xerxes had grouped the Macedonians of the plain into one political unit with the mountain tribes, and Alexander kept it this way. At the same time, the Greeks, who had only been united by religion, their legendary cooperation during the Trojan War, and their language, started to recognize that they also shared their cooperation in the Persian War. As former allies of Xerxes, the Macedonians could not be Greeks.
5. Of course, the separate development of Macedonia and the Greek cities did not prevent close ties. Greece needed the timber and cereals that Macedonia exported and Alexander needed support to control the mountain tribes. He tried to deny the increasing differences by calling himself philhellenos ("friend of the Greeks"), and claimed that his family descended from the Greek city of Argos (text), a claim that was recognized by the authorities at the Olympic Games. Still it must be noted that the title philhellenos itself implies that the nation that Alexander represented was not Greek (no Greek king needed to call himself "friend of the Greeks"). Alexander also claimed that he had never been fully loyal to his Persian overlord, but this is contradicted by his behavior during the war, by the marriage alliance, and -as late as the 460's- by his support of Themistocles, who had been exiled by the Athenians and was on the run to Persia.
6. Men like Alexander and his successors, who had received a Greek education and sometimes claimed to descend from legendary Greek heroes, were responsible for the expansion of Greek culture to the east. They accepted the Greeks as partners in rule. At the same time, the Greeks accepted the Macedonians as one of the Greek nations. What in fact happened was the creation of a new type of Greekness. One was not only born as Greek, but could also become a Greek by accepting a Greek education. The Macedonians were the first ones to be assimilated, but Egyptians, Jews, and Babylonians followed, and later, Romans and Gauls were also accepted as "culture Greeks". Bitola 13:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, you are pointing that I have no further arguments and that is why I don’t answer to your responses. The real reason is that I don’t want to end up in an endless discussion with you. But, because you are so pushy, here are my responses to your responses… This time I would use several sentences written by Ernst Badian (Department of History, Harvard University). His article about Greeks and Macedonians is too lengthy: and I will use just a little from it.
1 I’m trying to provide evidence by neutral authors from non-Macedonian sources. I object your evidence, regardless true or not, because it is completely taken from Greek sites that are trying to proof the Greek origin of Ancient Macedonians.
2. I didn’t include the rest of the article I used because it is too lengthy. However, I provided a link to the site and suggested to all to read it as a whole(). About your comment: check the letters on the coin with his name (you are suggesting that use of Greek alphabet is a proof of nationality), I would use following Badian’s comment: In this case, unfortunately, as every treatment of the problem nowadays seems to show, discussion has become bedevilled by politics and modern linguistic nationalism: the idea that a nation is essentially defined by a language and that, conversely, a common language means a common nationhood--which is patently untrue for the greater part of human history and to a large extent even today. The Kultursprache of ancient Macedonians, as soon as they felt the need for one, was inevitably Greek, as it was in the case of various other ancient peoples. There was no feasible alternative…
"When Eumenues saw the close-locked formation of the Macedonian phalanx ..., he sent Xennias once more, a man whose speech was Macedonian, biding him declare that he would not fight them frontally but would follow them with his cavalry and units of light troops and bar them from provisions”. …Now, Xennias' name at once shows him to be a Macedonian. Since he was in Ambiance' entourage, he was presumably a Macedonian of superior status, who spoke both standard Greek and his native language. He was the man who could be trusted to transmit Ambiance' message. This clearly shows that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian, if one wanted to be sure (as Ambiance certainly did) that they would understand. And--almost equally interesting-- he did not address them himself, as he and other commanders normally addressed soldiers who understood them, nor did he send a Greek. The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was a difficult, indeed a foreign, tongue to them. We may thus take it as certain that, when Alexander used Macedonian in addressing his guards, that too was because it was their normal language, and because (like Ambiance) he had to be sure he would be understood…
3. You are asking what is my benefit of proving that Alexander wasn’t Greek. I will tell you that what I like the most is truth, the real truth, not the nationalistic one that causes one country to force another, neighbouring country to change its name for something happened several thousands years ago.
4. This claim was not mine, it is a fact provided by a historian. E. Badian also says this: There is no evidence whatsoever of any Macedonian claim to a Greek connection before the Persian War of 480-479 B.C… As we have seen, no Macedonian (king,baron,or commoner) appears in the Olympic victor lists. Nor do we find the Macedonian people ever regarded as a political entity, transacting business with Greek states.… The Macedonians as such do not appear, any more than, for example, the Persians or the Thracians do. We have to wait until the time of Antigonus Doson, it seems, before the Macedonians are attested as a people in the political sense. This in itself, of course, may not be relevant to the issue of their presumed "Hellenism," any more than the king's presence at a congress was to his. For obvious reasons, congresses were political meetings, and attendance at them would be ruled by political needs and convenience. The king of Macedon would be asked to send representatives, just as the king of Persia did, when the Greek states though this desirable or even when he himself did. There is no record of tests by Hellanodikai at such meetings. It does, however, show that for political purposes no difference was seen between Macedonians and (say) Thracians and Persians, i.e., other nations under monarchical rule. This may have been a contributing factor in unwillingness to recognize Macedonians as Greek.
5. E.Badian: We find him described in the lexicographers, who go back to fourth-century sources, as Philhellen--surely not an appellation that could be given to an actual Greek. No king recognized as Greek, to my knowledge, was ever referred to by that epithet.. Characteristically for Alexander despite his thorough Greek education and obviously genuine interest in Greek literature, was nevertheless a Macedonian king... The Demosthenes in its Third Philippic (9.30 f.) claims that suffering inflicted on Greeks by Greeks is at least easier to bear than that now inflicted by Philip, who is not only not a Greek and has nothing to do with Greeks, but is not even a barbarian from a place it would be honorable to name--a cursed Macedonian, who comes from where it used to be impossible even to buy a decent slave.. In these tirades we find not only the Hellenic descent of the Macedonain people (which few seriously accepted) totally denied, but even that of the king. It is not even mentioned merely in order to be rejected: the rejection is taken as a matter of course…As regards the Macedonian nation as a whole, there was (as far as we can see) no division. They were regarded as clearly barbarian, despite the various myths that had at various times issued from the court and its Greek adherents, perhaps ever since the time of Alexander I, and demonstrably ever since the time of Perdiccas II.
6. As I said before: read the whole article, not just the end of the article.
NikoSilver, I really don’t intend to continue this endless session. The article is already 145 kb long (Wikipedia suggests the size smaller than 50 kb) and If we continue this way, we could block the Wikipedia server. Why don’t you just simply accept the fact that there are many modern historians (Eugene Borza, Peter Green, Werner Jaeger, Ulrich Wilcken, N.G.L.Hammond, A.B.Bosworth etc) considering the Ancient Macedonians as a distinct nation from Ancient Greeks? Bitola 13:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Kiro Gligorov should not be taken as a reliable source, science can tell everything. Regards and... LOL... Bomac 22:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Comment. This discussion has indeed been going on for too long. I just want to make a small comment here: Has it ever occured on anyone that the ancient culture of Greeks, Cretans, Babylonians, Egyptians, Gauls, Romans etc actually belongs to every cultured man on Earth?? Does it really matter what their ethnic alignment really was?? Our northern neighbors indeed have the right to claim heritage from Alexander, as every civilized man has, from Chile to Japan. The values of antiquity are not copyrighted. They are universal! It seems there is a claim that ancient Macedonians were not Greek tongued. Many would disagree, but is it again that any kind of important claim?? It has been like 3000 years since, peoples hove come and gone, cultures have mixed and mingled and fused. Why is hellenization, the process of adoption of the Greek cultural heritage demonized? Was indeed Marcus Aurelius, the philosopher Roman Emperor any less Greek than, say Sophocles? Or was Ioannis of Damascus, a prominent byzantine theologian any less Greek?? Greekness was and IMHO still is a matter of culture. Please try not to view ethnicity as the black and white thing we have today. It has always been a grey, if not fuzzy thing in the past. The concept of nations as we have today is a relatively new idea, dating back to the Enlightment. Prior to that the very concept of ethnicity was very much different from what it is today. If we were having this discussion in say 1000AD we would be doing so sharing a common identity both Greek and Makedonski speakers as Romans, as subjects of the Roman Emperor of Constantinople. Only after the advent of the concept of Nationalism (try to understand that without negative connotations, as a concept) did the people start to draw lines. I will get off of the soapbox now. -- Michalis Famelis 08:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I love our northern neighbours too, but I also love history and facts. So let's stick to the facts and write an encyclopedia. talk to +MATIA 13:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The beginning of the article states that this is about the country and that other uses may be found at Macedonia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone will be at Republic of Macedonia if they were looking for the geographical region or the Greek state known as Macedonia. Usually such notes are used only if the article and the mistake have the same or almost exactly the same title, such as at photon. But here this isn't the case. Is the note really necessary? If you type in Macedonia, you can't have come here without having been there, so what's the point?--naryathegreat | (talk) 22:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Try this experiment: type the single word "Macedonia" in a google search window and click on "I'm feeling lucky". Jonathunder 02:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
You may try another experiment as well: go to a library. One can find wonderful things there. talk to +MATIA 13:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that there are now too many pictures in the article. And, for sure, some of them must be placed on the opposite side. But I can do that without mentioning it; I just want to gain consensus that this many pictures can't be on an article of this size.--naryathegreat | (talk) 06:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The pictures look nice, but I'm quite concerned about the copyright status of many of them. The ones Bitola took himself are fine, and he deserves our thanks, but most of the others appear to be copied from websites, I'm afraid, even though marked as GFDL. (One has a watermark across it, even though it's on Commons.) If we were rigorous about removing the ones with dubious copyright status, I don't think we would have the problem of too many images. Jonathunder 19:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following images from the article because they appear to be copied from websites and the copyright status is questionable. Jonathunder 14:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm Ok with that Bitola 17:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
People who have a tendency for reverts should stop for a while and think what is meant with the term International Organizations. The paragraph Republic_of_Macedonia#International_relations can be helpful to distinguish the difference between country and associations or organizations of that country... talk to +MATIA 19:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Seamless Wikipedia browsing. On steroids.
Every time you click a link to Wikipedia, Wiktionary or Wikiquote in your browser's search results, it will show the modern Wikiwand interface.
Wikiwand extension is a five stars, simple, with minimum permission required to keep your browsing private, safe and transparent.