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Under the 'The Cold War era' section, the USSR and US comparison chart has incorect info under the Demographic section. The population of the USA was not "over 300 million" during the Cold War. Seince that is incorrect, I suggest someone also check to make sure the USSR population is correct as well. I suggest using a range from 1946 population to 1990 or 1991 (wichever was the final collapse of the Soviet Union), such as (just an example, this is not correct) 175 million - 350 million. Thanks, 68.57.110.172 05:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Lord Blaine
Someone needs to update the emerging superpowers map under the "emerging powers page". First of all Romania is now a full member and Turkey, sorry to say, is not oficially. Someone please change this missleading map.- Thanks
Brazil has now been added to the emerging superpowers section based on one Op-ed piece. The Brazil as an emerging superpower article will likely be deleted soon. I remain doubtful that Brazil the 10th largest economy as an emerging superpower. Why not France, which has a much larger GDP, UNSC seat and nuclear weapons? same goes for the UK. I think it will take more than one op-ed as reference to list Brazil as an emerging superpower based largely on it having an economy smaller than that of the state of California.CA's GDP Regards, Signaturebrendel 19:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
You want references? He looks at:
I would not be insisting if he was false. João Felipe C.S 21:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
See this: João Felipe C.S 22:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
What such to place the Brazil and the Russia in a section Emerging superpowers controversy ? João Felipe C.S 14:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that the population,and other atributes of USA should remain those at the time of the collapse of ussr.Not updated.--Pixel ;-) 17:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
If the EU can be considered a Superpower despite not being a sovereign state then perhaps NATO, NAFTA, OPEC, and even the UN should be added as potential superpowers. Each of these organizations encompasses vast amounts of economic and/or military clout that easily rival that of the EU. Zebulin 16:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks!
how does freedom of movement relate to superpower status?
freedom of movement did not exist (at all) in the USSR. Does this disqualify the USSR as a superpower?
In more general terms if we wish to highlight differences between the EU and other supranational organizations as the basis for excluding them from superpower status while assigning superpower status to the EU those differences need to be connected to the concept of superpower in some concrete way.
For instance if freedom of movement were granted between NATO countries this would certainly make them closer but it is difficult to see how this would make NATO function more as a superpower. Zebulin 17:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
IIRC There is nothing stopping NAFTA from agreeing to collectively ban products or practices from it's market as well. Could you help clarify how the EU exercises it's market influence? I had assumed that it's binding decisions required near unanimous consent of it's individual constituent sovereign state members.
Furthermore do we have any evidence of the term "superpower" having been used to describe a situation where power exists soley as a result of manipulating total global supply and demand of certain commodities? If so then I would still maintain that OPEC should be regarded as a superpower nearly on par with the EU given the crucial role of petroleum as a commodity in the world's economy. Zebulin 20:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Whether the EU is, or could be, a superpower is a matter for debate. I, with a typical Northern European attitude, say no, others with a more Franco-German axis attitude say yes - as a result of this dispute we make note that there is a debate. Whether OPEC, NAFTA, or anyone else is a superpower is not really up to us or our arguments here. What we need is to find reputable opinion, either for or against. I doubt that there are too many people around who would regard OPEC as a superpower, but if you can find an academic or politican of standing who does then we can consider the matter.
Xdamrtalk 22:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
IIRC the steel tarrifs were removed in response to pressures applied via the WTO by several WTO member countries and not due to any direct action by the EU. Perhaps it is the WTO which was demonstrated to be the true superpower in that case.
Zebulin 05:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
As to the suggestion that we have academics or politician of standing who consider the EU to be a superpower I hope there are better examples than the cited "The United States Of Europe: The New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy." reference. There is nothing to suggest that author is a credible academic or politician of standing that I can find. Zebulin 05:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks!
You appear to be asserting that for an organization of states to qualify as a superpower there must be a certain number of political ties between the individual states. However we must return to the original concept of a "superpower". All definitions revolve around the concept of the organization wielding some kind of "power" in the pursuit of a global agenda that is of it's own making. This means that whatever ties we are interested in (political or otherwise) between constituent members need only relate to the exercise of that power and to the formulation of a unified agenda to direct that power towards.
For instance freedom of movement did not exist between the constituent republics of the USSR but as this did not limit it's exercise of power or prevent the formation of a unified agenda this absent political tie was irrelevant to it's super power status.
The only political ties we need to see between member states of an organization to qualify them for consideration as a superpower will be those ties which are necessary to form a unified global agenda and those that are necessary to direct the power at the disposal of that organization towards serving that agenda.
In the case of OPEC the ties within the organization are entirely related to the projection of it's power in the pursuit of it's unified agenda. Adding freedom of movement or any other irrelevant ties between the opec members would in no way facilitate the formation of a unified agenda for OPEC or in any way facilitate it's pursuit of that agenda.
If we are to disqualify OPEC from superpower status consideration based upon a lack of political ties we must indicate how those ties would better enable OPEC to form and effectively fulfill it's own global agenda.
Conversely if we are to offer up a large number of political ties between members of an organization as evidence of superpower status, we must describe how those political ties allow it to better form and effectively fulfill it's own unified global agenda. Having done that we must also show that ties necessary for the formulation and fullfillment of it's own unified global agenda are not absent in a way that would disrupt efforts of the would-be superpower. If members of that organization are free to undermine the unified agenda by acting directly against it on the world stage then we cannot really consider the organization to be in any meaningful way a superpower.
For your example of the US, freedom of movment between the states is not what allows the consideration of the country as a superpower. Neither would we consider other political ties such as federal education standards, the social security system, federal oversight of broadcasting or any of a vast plethora of political ties that have *nothing* to do with the formation and fullfilment of a unified global agenda to be in any way relevant to it's consideration as a superpower. Removing any or all of those irrelevant ties does not in any way reduce the effectiveness of the US as an actor on the world stage serving it's own unified agenda.
Rather in the case of the US the only ties that will matter will be those relating to it's unified command and unified control of it's military capabilites, and to it's unified command and unified control of all foreign relations.
Essentially if we are to consider the EU in it's current form to qualify as a superpower then we have to allow that even if every US state were free to form it's own foreign policy and had exclusive control over it's own military and that the US itself lacked any military under direct federal control that it would *still* be a superpower. In the case of the recent gulf war for instance this would have meant only a fraction of the total US military being committed as several large states would refuse to participate. We would have to conclude that the US was a superpower exclusively as a result of it's potential military power (in the event that all it's constuent members happen to agree and act in concert) and as a result of it's ability to form and pursue a limited economic agenda through pushing some levers in the world market to influence the world markets towards a *unanimously* agreed upon agenda.
It was mentioned that whereas non of the US states are free to disobey the federal government or even to challenge it, that the members of OPEC have been known to disobey from time to time. Currently both Germany and France are willfully disobeying the EU by running up illegal deficits. If disobedience by OPEC members disqualfies OPEC then won't disobedience by EU members likewise disqualify it from superpower consideration as well?
The US would obviously be much weaker as an actor on the world stage in that condition and even more importantly we would have to admit that the residual abilities it would posses to form and successfully implement a global agenda would also be possesed by a number of other non state actors on the world stage.
If we are to continue to discount such non-state actors on the world stagge as superpowers on the basis of a mere difference in the number of ties between constituent members then we must explain how those ties specifically reduce the power of these actors on the world stage.
I believe I have shown how centralization of foreign policy and control of military is a tie that is of critical importance to the status of the US as a superpower but it does not appear that anyone has explained how various other ties increase that power and facilitate it's exercise towards a unified agenda.
Zebulin 15:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the notion that the EU can be considered a super power because credible academic references or high profile politicians regard it as such I must disagree. The vast majority of such references only conclude the the EU may be a *potential* future superpower based on an assumption that it will further unify. None of the references which appear to claim the EU in it's current form may already be a super power appear to be any more credible than a newspaper editorial.
Zebulin 15:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the claim that Phil Angelides vows he will remove troops from Iraq if elected is quite extroidinary. I couldn't find any mention of it in the Phil Angelides article or the California gubernatorial election, 2006 article. Could you help me find more information on this? I am not aware of any incidence of any state in the 20th or 21st century succeeding in defying the federal government.
The EU has a large GDP, but it is not indisputably the largest in the world (the US is often listed higher) and is certainly smaller than the GDP of NAFTA.
I think at this point in the discussion I am becoming less interested in adding new organizations as superpowers than in moving the EU entry into the "emerging superpowers" section as it would seem it cannot possibly function as a superpower without considerable change. Zebulin 19:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Reading the archives took some considerable length of time. How was this supposed to have been helpful? Nothing posted in the archives (whose pro EU as superpower content consisted almost entirely of restatements of your posts here by you and ruber chicken) addressed my main point. That point being that connections between members of an organization must relate to it's to it's unified command of it's military assets and unified control of all of it's foreign relations. Other forms of connections not relating those two abilities will not allow a non-state organization to behave more as a single state on the world stage. They may give a stronger impression of being a unified state to those within the organization but to all external appearances the organization will still behave as a collection of discrete individual states and not as a single state.
I have read your archives now please kindly read my posts in return.
Whenever challenged in this page or in the archives the status of the EU as qualifying as a state while other larger organizations are disqualified you have always replied that the EU qualfies as a superpower while the other organizations do not simply because it has more connections than those other organizations.
I have already replied that those connections are irrelevant for erasing the distinction between a state and a collection of states because those additional connections that make EU members "closer" do not at all improve the ability of the EU to form and project a unified foreign policy much less a unified military command.
Earlier I pointed out that one of the specific examples of those closer connections you gave, freedom of movement, was an ideal of an example of how a connection that draws countries in an organization closer together fails in any way to contribute to the countries superpower status. The same can be said of any connection that does not confer an ability to form a unified foreign policy or unified military command.
For example suppose that the states of the US were brought closer together by converting from a federation of states to a unitary state. The status of the united states as a superpower would not be effected one whit but such a profound unifying change. This is because both before and after such a change the united states foreign policy and military command would be unified to *exactly* the same degree.
What nobody has ever done in the archives or anywhere in this discussion is explain how closer connections between EU members than between the members of other organizations allow it to qualify as a superpower while simultaneously not recognizing any other organization of sovereign states as a potential superpower.
Furthermore for all the talk of the very exceptionally "close" connections between members of the EU, those who would call the EU a current superpower have never addressed how the great chasm of totally seperate foreign policy is bridged between EU members by these numerous other connections. Who makes foreign policy decisions for the EU? What levers does that body or individual have to pursue the EU's foreign policy? What can that indivudal or body do when one or more of the EU members pursue a foreign policy directly contrary to the one they have chosen for the EU?
As far as I can tell the no body of the EU even has the ability to form it's own foreign policy much less any means to pursue such a foreign policy once formed.
How can an organization that lacks any body to form a foreign policy possibly be a "power" of any kind on the world stage much less a superpower?
On the other hand if the constituent members were ever to surrender their power to form foreign policy to a body of the EU then the EU would at that moment cleary function as a super power. That has not yet happened but plenty of references can be found which indicate that such a transfer of power may occur in the future.
Why then do you oppose describing the EU as an emerging superpower when clearly it's superpower status is contingent upon changes not yet realized?
The EU cannot be considered a superpower for the mere fact that it does not have an army.
EUFOR 88.104.248.225 16:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to add a historical section on the superpowers, before world war 2. Please share your views and adjust. Remove if you believe it inappropriate. This comment was left by 68.6.230.65
Well I guess it should be removed. But before one does so, remember that the Roman empire was a superpower as it had the capabilities of a superpower of its time. The known world was well within its range and was economically, politically and militarily the most powerful nation and could challenge any. So could Alexander's Macedonian empire and King Darius' Perdsian empire. Superpowers are not invincible, but they do have Super power.
I think whats clouding our judgement is the fact that the Soviet Union and the United States had nuclear weaposn that could annihalate the earth many times over. Other than that, I cannot see why only the post 1945 period deserves superpowers. There have always been cold wars between superpowers often being hotter than the cold war of post 1945 in only that there was no nuclear technology. The Mongolian empire was at one time an unstoppeable superpower.
When Rome was at the height of its power, China wasn't even united and was in the Warring States Period of Chinese history, while Rome controlled the whole of Europe, China featured numerous kingdoms who were spread out like in the image I'm adding here. Compare with the pic at Roman Empire. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 05:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
http://www.chinainstitute.org/educators/curriculum/han/comparative.html
So why isn't there a section on the Russian Federation? I mean right now the country is showing some good growth rates and it has been the heart of the Soviet Union. It is definitely the most powerful Eastern Europe nation and given the right timing it will restore its superpower status. Remember that most of Chinese technology is from Russia and that Chinese military as such doesnt match Russian in terms of quality.
Some person just changed the "Superpowers Today" and claimed there aren't any. Is this just plain vandalism or is this true? Even if it is, it must be cited since it's commonly known that since the fall of the Soviet Union, the US became and still is the sole superpower of the world. NoItAl 03:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that Japan as second largest economy should be mentioned as potential superpower.--Staberinde 16:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that Japan should be considered a superpower especially if great powers such as the UK, France, Germany, and Italy merge into the EU, and the superpowers of the world are considered to be the United States, the European Union, Russia, China, India, and maybe then Japan as it would still be the 3rd largest economy, a G8 member and it also has a considerable defence budget and largest reserves of gold not to mention it being pretty much the most advanced country and weilding many of the largest companies and a huge trading nation plus a reasonable population size and world's largest city. Somethingoranother 02:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe if Japan loses its pacifist constitution in the near future as signs are beginning to show then having an economy the size that it has would allow it to spend very large amounts on its defence. It curently is limited to spend only 1% of its GDP on defence and already its defence budget is one of the highest. If it were to start spending 3% - 5% on its defence it would have the defence budget equivalent to a superpower Somethingoranother 20:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please fix it, I don't know which one we used...and next time could User:Somethingoranother discuss before pushing the POV that Japan, Brazil and Russia (out of all nations) are emerging superpowers. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 22:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Yer someone sort it out, please. 88.104.157.163 16:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I have finally got around to putting these surplus images up for deletion.
I think that takes care of all the problematic/obsolete Superpower maps.
This article has two French inter-wiki link. One of them is garbage. But when I go to delete it, I can't kind it in the code. I think I'm loosing it! Help. Kevlar67 02:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Dont think theres a need for this to be a separate article. -Ste|vertigo 06:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that the article should be merged into the main document - it does not stand alone well without an understanding of superpower, and should not be seperate.The7thone1188 16:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
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