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When you said that a night can move one cube rookwise then one bishoplike move it is possible for it to move through all 3 planes, ie, it moves one square forward, then one left, then one down. I sugest replacing that with it moves two cubes rookwise, then one cube rookwise in a perpendicular direction, thus meaning the entire move can take place on one plane, unless of course what can be interpreted from what is already written is true (moving through all 3 planes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by J4ck 7he Ripp3r (talk • contribs) 07:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Did you mean non-existent? And if so, that's not really true... if people have made up the rules for it and built boards for it, it's real. -- Wapcaplet
Takuya, are you sure that the 3d chess variant played in Ginga Eiyu densetsu is the same as the one played in Star Trek? -- Derek Ross 17:31 14 May 2003 (UTC)
I believe that Star Trek chess is NOT 3-d chess, rather, it is normal chess, on a normal board, with the only difference being that different parts of the board are at different elevations. Ive seen nothing on Star Trek to indicate that the rules are different, only the appearance of the board is different. Pizza Puzzle
Anyone know where a copy of the 3Dc chess rules can be found? How about a set? User:Green Herring
Anyone who thinks, that Star Trek Chess shall be removed from the Three-dimensional chess article should have a look at the history of this article. The article started in Oct 2002 with “Star Trek chess” only, which wasn’t called like that at that time. “Tri-Dimensional Chess” as name for all kind of Star Trek chesses appeared in this article for the first time in April 2004. And by the end of the same month “Star Trek Tri-Dimensional Chess” was mentioned for the first time.
93.134.143.161 (talk) 16:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
The Asimov story with 3D chess was actually A Perfect Fit. Pebble In The Sky had a normal chess game - Asimov deliberately used a real game and gave all the moves in the story because he didn't like typical fictional descriptions of chess games. Ekaterin 12:32, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that Dragon Chess should be mentioned as well. Actually when I read the article on Dragon Chess I came here to find out which was first, Star Trek Chess or Dragon Chess. The concept behind both is nearly identical, by the description of how it looks anyway.
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 08:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't seam to be noteworthy enough to have a whole section written about it, at the very least it should be split into a seperate artical. Its also written like an advertisement. Im going to remove it, if anyone objects feel free to tell me Googolplexed (talk) 04:48, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
The description of the unicorns is incomprehensible, and the layout of Asimov's hyperchess isn't much better (the typo that says "type 3 is like type 3" doesn't help). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.86.70 (talk) 09:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I drew ST Chessboard with google SketchUp. If someone want to improve actual design please contact me I'll send by mail actual skp file. OTAVIO1981 (talk) 19:10, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
To date, this article has been heavily loaded with irrelevant material by Star Trek and science fiction novel fans/fanatics about imaginary, non-existant, unplayable, incomplete and/or undeveloped 3-D games. This article must only be devoted to describing real, playable 3-D games that also meet the notability standards of Wikipedia. -DavidWatersHC —Preceding undated comment added 18:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC).
Tri-Dimensional Chess Rules – Standard Rules by Andrew BartmessTri-Dimensional Chess Rules – Standard Rules by Andrew Bartmess The link goes to a site containing "BUY RULES" link which goes to another site where Bartmess Standard Rules are available only via purchase. Is this COI? Or COI exception? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 00:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Most of the section "other variants" is dedicated to describing, in lengthy detail, a "variant of 3D chess simulated by the 3dchess program for GNU/Linux". Nowhere in the article is the name of this commercially-manufactured game given. This current state of affairs is pointless. If someone cares about this game, then its name needs to be put into this article soon. Otherwise, its orphaned description should be deleted. -DavidWatersHC —Preceding undated comment added 03:04, 24 January 2011 (UTC).
You completely missed my meaning. I just deleted the useless section of orphaned gibberish I was referring to.
Anyway ...
As far as external links go, it is preferable but NOT mandatory for games that merit external links to be noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the body of the article. Therefore, you are taking an extreme, destructive position not stated or supported anywhere within WP:EL.
The nature of this article is more artistic than scientific. Skilled people just arbitrarily create 3-D chess variants. "Reliable sources" from academic journals to prove they exist are, in fact, ridiculously rare as well as unreasonable and unrealistic to demand or expect. If a 3-D game is fully defined and playable, then it exists. This state of affairs is too simple to be confusing. Notwithstanding, I have only found three 3-D games with dedicated web sites that merit having their external links restored.
If you undertake a radical program to remove ALL chess variants (2-D & 3-D) that "lack reliable sources", there will only be a few-several left out of appr. 75 games currently. I will not stand idly by and allow you to destroy years of quality, constructive work by hundreds of editors. I remind you that the category of chess variants at Wikipedia exists with the approval of top editors more powerful than you. It is not your place to, in effect, unilaterally destroy it via your stated excuse. -DavidWatersHC
I don't know who ultimately runs Wikipedia, who has power over "admins" such as yourself.
Verifiability is a sound basic policy but going to the fanatical extreme to close your eyes to hard evidence (other than academic citations) of what obviously, undeniably exists is NOT intelligent behavior.
For example ...
If you can download a program (often Zillions or Axiom) that rationally plays a two-player chess variant (typically, computer vs. human) on an IBM-compatible computer running a modern version of Microsoft Windows, how can you possibly persist in denying that a playable game exists ... after you have repeatedly played it? To be sure, this is the case with one of the three external links I am attempting to include. Are you willing to fairly investigate my claim and when it proves true, allow this ONE select item to be added?
Verifiability concentrates on claims. The only claim a game makes is that it exists. -DavidWatersHC
"On Wikipedia, notability determines whether a topic merits its own article." -the Wikipedia guideline on notability
The context of my remarks concerns only whether or not a game merits an external link, not its own article.
-DavidWatersHC —Preceding undated comment added 06:55, 25 January 2011 (UTC).
Ohnoitsjamie- You always agree with MrOllie yet never have anything of substance to say, either about the subject matter of chess variants or Wikipedia policy. -DavidWatersHC
Bubba73- No argument from me. That policy means essentially that the number of external links should not be excessive and those chosen should be relevant and high-quality. Recall that I think only 1-3 need to be added. -DavidWatersHC —Preceding undated comment added 16:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC).
If it means enough to you to create and write an article for that game, please do so. Just stay mindful that there is always a looming possibility it will be deleted by other editors unless you can establish that it is notable.
-DavidWatersHC —Preceding undated comment added 03:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC).
When I mentioned 75+ chess variants, I meant 2-D games as well as 3-D games with Wikipedia pages.
If you sincerely care about applying Wikipedia policy correctly (instead of corruptly), please redirect your attention to WP:ELMAYBE, the section "links to be considered". Point 4 states, "Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.".
Did you really take the time to examine in detail and fairly CONSIDER all of the several external links you deleted?
Do you expect me to believe it is merely an unfortunate (to me) happenstance that you decided to delete every damned one of them that you allegedly fairly considered?
-DavidWatersHC —Preceding undated comment added 17:12, 25 January 2011 (UTC).
I realize that. I sent two messages in a series. My first message was directed at you. My second message was directed at MrOllie. Sorry for causing confusion.
-DavidWatersHC
From WP:ELNO, the section "links normally to be avoided"
4. "Links mainly intended to promote a website, including online petitions."
You summarized this as "links should not be used to promote sites".
Do you see any online petitions, promotions or advertisements on any of the three external links I recommend? Of course not.
None of these web sites are promoting themselves in any way. Their common, sole purpose is to clearly present a free 3-D game for anyone to play.
11. "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority."
You summarized this as "that we should not link to people's personal sites".
Do you see any blogs about personal lives, Facebook vanity pages or Star Trek fan pages? Of course not.
13. "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep linked."
You excerpted its most relevant part as "that we should not link to sites about a specific subject (one variant) on an article about a general subject".
Yes, this article is about the general subject of 3-D chess variants. Although a definition of 3-D chess variants or explanation of what all of them share in common is given within this article, most of its text is devoted to describing two specific 3-D chess variants that are notable. The three 3-D games for which I seek external links are of comparable quality, just not notable.
In summary, none of the points you are attempting to use are applicable at all to justify NOT included the desired external links.
-DavidWatersHC —Preceding undated comment added 23:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC).
If you sincerely care about applying Wikipedia policy correctly (instead of corruptly), please redirect your attention to WP:ELYES, the section "what should be linked". Point 3 states, "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to ... (a variety of reasons).". I took the liberty to fairly summarize the end.
In this case, any honest and intelligent editor can see the obvious- that all of the three desired external links are as perfect of a fit to this criteria as anything gets in the real world.
YES!
So ... Would you like to restore these external links (that you never should have been removed in the first place) or would you prefer me to?
-DavidWatersHC
There are only two editors, you & Ohnoitsjamie, provably against restoring these external links. You two have reverted the work of more editors than that (est. several) who originally placed these external links and/or tried to restore them. A 100% consensus for an edit is not needed and rarely exists anyway.
Please refer to WP:CONS:
What consensus is
Consensus is a decision that takes account of all the legitimate concerns raised. All editors are expected to make a good-faith effort to reach a consensus aligned with Wikipedia's principles.
Sometimes voluntary agreement of all interested editors proves impossible to achieve, and a majority decision must be taken. More than a simple numerical majority is generally required for major changes.
Note: External links are a minor change to an article.
It is important and relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject of 3-D chess variants to realize there that more than 4 games exist and moreover, to have a direct, convenient means of navigating to other games (i.e., external links).
Well, the exact rules of specific 3-D chess variants are usually included wherever you find them. Otherwise, people can't figure-out how to play the games. So ... What is your point, anyway?
I recently realized that you & Ohnoitsjamie think you have legitimate reasons, compliant with Wikipedia policy, for deleting all of the external links in a sub-section. Accordingly, I am compelled to apologize for misinterpretting your actions and calling them "vandalism".
-DavidWatersHC
I'm a little confused by this discussion ... If you take a look at article Chess variant, you will find many non-notable variants presented in the article, and most of the article Notes consist of nothing more than links to their respective game sources, some of which are very weak compared to the current article here. (For example, 'Evil Queen' variant has no presence anywhere I can find online or anywhere else; 'Jedi Knight chess' links to a personal space on a website; 'Doublewide chess' simply links to its entry at chessvariants.com; 'Dunsany's chess' has an article of its own and the sole basis for it is an entry in Pritchard's book; 'ChessHeads' requires a proprietary playing card deck and links to its entry at Boardgamegeek.com as well as linking to a commercial website selling the deck and other products; and another entry linked only to a personal blogspace. Etc.)
So my point is, why are we discussing the external link and related issue(s) *here*, when it seems the same issues exist to greater degree and in manifold ways already at the Chess variant article, making that article a better candidate or opportunity for the same discussion? (I.e. if policy issues exist here, then that article would certainly seem a more optimum & appropriate centerpiece or poster child for settling matters or clarifying what is or isn't consistent with WP, since the same issues seem much more severe/extreme *there*. [And any result/rectification there could of course serve easily then as model/precedent here for correction/consistency/uniformity, etc.])
It's also been suggested to stay away from level 3 sections, and also to perhaps use an EL to a site where article entries are listed & maintained, as alternative to individual specification in the Wikipedia article itself (if I understand correctly). Okay, again, the Chess variant article seems to be loaded up with level 3 sections already, and, is it also proposed to remove all those entries and replace them w/ a link to websites like Chessvariants.com, Boardgamegeek.com, etc.?
(If I'm not understanding something, please explain, thx.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:32, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Should we mention the appearance of the Star Trek Tri-D Chess Set on The Big Bang Theory? 173.171.48.130 (talk) 04:12, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Removing section--the "Star Trek" game is covered elsewhere in this article, other items are not sufficiently notable.
Someone deleted from the article the the mistake that many people make with 3D Chess,
they stack several Chess boards and think that works out fine.
It isn't that simple and diagrams don't highlight the point as thought you could make an article with just diagrams.
You have to state it in the article in writing that the cubes alternate color in all directions.
If you stack the boards wrong some of the piece move completely differently. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 20:59, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ As far as I can see there are three sections to this article, the intro which talks about generic 3D chess and states only that there are variations, the section on 5x5x5 Chess, and the section on Star Trek Chess.
I consider the first section to be deficient and the highlighting of the later two to be warranted, but not above the development of the generic idea of 3D chess. I wouldn't be surprised if Star Trek Chess was merged into the 3D chess article, but it shouldn't domiated the article now that it is here. Same for the 5x5x5 Chess, it's an idea that shouldn't dominate the article above the original idea of 3D Chess. I want to check the references for less specific (not Star Trek, not 5x5x5 Chess) ideas to expand the article in favor of the main article's title's subject matter. I believe it is important to have a description of how the pieces move that is independant of a particular variant. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 02:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ I added a new reference (Hooper, David; Whyld, Kenneth (1995), The Oxford Companion to Chess, Oxford University Press (USA), ISBN 0-192-80049-3
) which I hope will help bring better balance to the article. I don't live in the city anymore so it will be a while before I can look through it for nuggets of material, but I know their libary has a copy. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 02:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ Because we are mistakenly using diagonal movement synonymously with cube edge movement "Pawns capture diagonally as in chess, including one step upward (White) or downward (Black), through a front or side cube edge." doesn't clearly describe what I can visualize of the moves myself. I recommend separating the "normal" (as in chess) pawn moves from the vertical moves:
"Pawns capture diagonally on the same level (through the side edges of the cube) as in chess, plus the edge toward the forward cube, upward for White or downward for Black."
Not for the article but personally I don't think this is a generic 3D chess restriction, as that cuts the possible verticle pawn moves in half. It assumes only the farthest opposite-side edge be use for promotion, probably why the promotion rule is that way. It is already possible for opposing pawns (in 3d chess) to move around eachother so the extra restriction making it harder for pawns to block each other doesn't make sense to me. Just to ponder, on a parallel thought, if you follow the "Air, Land, Sea" 3D analogy through this, I don't see why White should start in the air and Black should start in the sea. . 24.79.40.48 (talk) 03:44, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Reverted the edit, since it changed pawn capture descript from correct to incorrect. (It dropped off pawn captures, say for White, in upward diagonal direction to the sides.) (There are other probs too, but let's agree re rules first.) Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 06:22, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ "Thx for the invite. I know I created that article (it deserved one), but it isn't really 'my game'."
- I see I misapplied your quote, you were talking about creating the Millennium 3D Chess article. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 21:55, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ I don't consider a tally of attributes to be original research or insurmountable. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 20:50, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
► I finally got to looking at the reference for 3D5/Raumschach Chess (http://www.chessvariants.org/3d.dir/3d5.html ), and I think I could have tried harder to visualize capturing through sideways vertical diagonals, it's easier if you just rotate the whole thing, but I see now with the acending/decending restriction how it makes five capture moves, although it is strange for the first set of pawns to have a row of pawns in the way to start. The fifth diagonal forward has to be there or you are only giving lipservice to the idea of movement in 3D as this move is the middle diagonal between the forward two diagonals and the verticle two diagonals. So I will make what I think to be the appropriate clarifications to the 3D5/Raumschach chess section to make is as easy as possible to understand without being too wordy. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 00:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ Does the introduction to this article adequately describe how most 3D chess variants are played and/or what they have in common,
or can more be added to this important section that expands the generic 3D chess idea and what all the variants have in common?
If one can answer the question "what is 3D chess?" then one can list the attributes, chose variants that fit that answer,
otherwise if one can't answer the question, then does the idea of "3D Chess" even deserve its own article?
There is an editor here who objects to changes or any improvements being made without the consensus of three or more editors.
So I am requesting help with the improvement of the introductory generic section of this article. Thanks. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 18:44, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ I don't consider a tally of attributes to be original research or insurmountable. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 20:50, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ I've played Alice Chess and there is nothing 3D about it (it's a mirror not a level), that's a nutty suggestion. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 20:50, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ I had no idea that in Star Trek Chess pieces don't have verticle moves, maybe that's why it should be called Star Trek chess rather than categoriezed as a genuine 3D game where pieces make real use of all "three dimensions." I was thinking there should be a redirect under the main title heading for all the internet search results for 3D Chess that are just for 3D graphics not 3D moves. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 20:50, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ I don't mean to be rude but 3D has a simple definition, and it seems like you are deliberately putting up stumbling block(s) against the improvement of this article. "3D Chess" in my mind is just what it describes. If you insist on calling something like Alice Chess 3D, then you can ascribe the 3D idea to anything, put a regular chess board on its side with platforms for each square so that there are 64 cubes instead of 65 squares and you could call regular chess 3D. I don't find your fear of change here to be justified or rational, despite your proposing exceptions and entaglements, the question "What is 3D Chess?" has to have an answer or it does not deserve an article, and if that question can be asked then the list of variants that fit that answer/definition can be tallied. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 20:50, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ Three chess boards, lined up so that they are 90° from each other, the corner "cube" where all three meet would have the same color on all three "visible" sides. This arrangment is what best illustrates three dimensional chess to me. Put any piece in that corner "cube" and you can easily see from a normal 2D move made in any of the three boards comprises all the 3D moves for that piece. It is a lot more simple to me than you describe. Just because someone puts the 3D label to their made up variant, like Tim O'Lena's 3D Chess, doesn't mean it really should be called a 3D Chess variant... And I would have to guess you haven't played the Notibility card because it doesn't apply to Content. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ I found this site that supports the idea the there are baseline rules that many 3D Chess games have in common. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 23:24, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
♦ "3. All squares in a single vertical stack are of the same color: for example, a1 is a black square on each of the 8 8x8 levels." - This tells me that the www.chessvariant.org site is garbage for use as any kind of example in the 3D chess article, as having all the cubes in one column one color is absurd as having all the cubes in one row one color. 24.79.40.48 (talk) 00:17, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
You opened this section in attempt to gather ... it's not really clear ... consensus for altering the primary emphasis of the article, to include a summary investigation table to uncover and describe "generic 3D chess moves". (See discussion above.) I suggested I don't agree, and that such plans for change should be weighed carefully, and consensus be found, considering 336+ views on the article per day.
Now, without any consensus, or even response to the section except mine, you seem to think you can just barrel ahead? (Yes?) And that because I've declinded any further content discussion with you, because of your constant stream of insults, it means I won't "be an obstacle to progress for the article"!?! Huh?!
Please let us all know *here* (below), where your consensus is, okay? (You certainly don't have agreement on my part. Duh.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 06:58, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
HEY!! Everybody calm down and stop using terms like "vandal" "fear of change" "[not] rational" "nutty" "full of BS" "Where do you get off?", etc. That kind of behavior is unacceptable here. Knock it off. See WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Also, reacting to such comments is generally considered to make the problem worse. See WP:IAD. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:52, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
::Now for my response to Ihardlythinkso.
Getting back to the question "Does the introduction to this article adequately describe how most 3D chess variants are played and/or what they have in common? I don't think the intro should describe all of that. Look at Chess and Poker. Chess describes one game and the lead gives a brief overview of some rules (but not how the pieces move), while Poker, like 3D chess, describes a family of games and has a lead that only describes what they all have in common. We need to first describe what 3D chess - the general concept - is and only later describe how various implementations are played.
So, what do all 3D chess games have in common? They are not 2D games. A 2D game is any game where you can only move left, right, forward, backward, or some combination (diagonal of Knight move, for example) and you can describe the start and end of a move with X and Y coordinates. What every 2D game has in common is that the words "up" and "down" have no meaning. In 3D chess you can arrange the board(s) so that those terms have meaning. Just because you can play on side-by-side boards, that's just a convenience - you can stack the boards and play the same game. So Alice chess is 3D - play it on two stacked boards and "up" and "down" have meaning. Doublewide chess is not 3D - no matter how you arrange the boards a destination square can be descibed by X and Y (no Z) coordinates.
That leaves things like cylinder chess. Cylinder chess is played on a 2D surface of a 3D object. I would call that 2D - the phrase "move your pawn down" has no meaning. Others might call it 3D - neither description is obviously wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
IMO, I see *no value* to the article, contributed by the recently added lede graphic. (It is eight 8x8 boards. So what? "An example of 3D chess"?! What example? Where's the ref? Where are rules?) This particular graphic was associated with an article that went AfD and was removed. So what game does the graphic associate to? Is there any content in the article about said game? What point does this graphic serve? What information is contained in: "An example of 3D chess"? And how is that true without tying the graphic to a specific game? I don't see any sense here.
I'm sure I'm being "obstructionist to the progress of the article" because I have an "agenda" and am just adding unnecessary "complexity and entaglements" by asking the above questions and having a view. Right. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:22, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Regarding graphics for the article, I see the anon wants to add to Commons "any way possible" a photo of "Batman 3D Chess", because he thinks the photo is "cool". Oh gosh, now I understand his true objective to make progressive improvement to the article. (How could have have been so dense?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
If not one of those photos, then back to this graphic.
To use this graphic what changes would have to be made. I could easily make a new one and upload it to Flickr.com 24.79.40.48 (talk) 21:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
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