Talk:Opus Dei/Archive 2005-1
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The founder's name was Josemaria Escriva, not "Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer": the title was an affectation.
- Why do you say that "Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer" wasn't his name. It was his name. The official page of the vatican for the canonization calls him Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer. So who has a problem with reality? Even people that are memebers of the Opus Dei (like many of my friends) know that.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I'm surprised that there is no mention of the him been the Marques de Peralta, a nobility title he fought for and got from the spanish crown. Truth is the title was used by his ancestors, and that some people say that he got it restituted so that he could give it to his brother (which he actually did). well probably this should be under his name and not here.. oops..
Anyway, people, when you make comments try to sign them. thanks Cjrs 79 05:11, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC) Cjrs 79 22:04, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
"Pope John Paul II made them his personal prelature". What does that mean?
S.
- Ordinary Catholic dioceses are organized within a specific physical location; they have one particular church as their bishop's seat, and their jurisdiction is limited to their delineated geographic area -- only those Catholics living within that area are subject to the bishop's authority. Personal prelatures -- Opus Dei is the only such organization, as far as I know -- are not limited by geography or tied to physical locations; a member might live in Poland or Peru, but s/he is subject to the authority of the prelature's leader (Javier Echevarria, in Opus Dei's case) who, like other bishops, reports directly to the Pope. (Should this be mentioned in the article, or would it be better placed under a separate heading, such as Personal Prelature?) Further inspection indicates that the relevant information is available in the prelate article; I have redirected the personal prelature link to prelate.
This page is so dreadfully long winded and unobjective that it is completely unreadable. It reads like cult literature.
Mike D. in Los Angeles [unsigned]
It would appear that it is essentialy impossible to present any view other than what Opus Dei wants to appear. It seems that they monitor this site quite closely; when something critical appears, it is removed immediately. Unfortunately, due to the open nature of the Wikipedia, it will be virtually impossible to maintain the neutrality of this topic. Matt in NYC [unsigned]
Someone (presumably an Opus Dei supporter) has replaced the previous article text with an entirely pro-Opus Dei article. Concatenating old and new versions for NPOV editing. [unsigned]
As this article has been edited, it appears to move closer and closer to the position that Opus Dei is a blameless, harmless, organization. Can we re-emphasize some of the anti-Opus-Dei POV, please? [unsigned]
It seems to me that "re-emphasizing" the anti-Opus Dei point of view wouldn't be a "neutral" point of view. [unsigned]
Of course it would, if the article expresses both sides. And yes this article is seriously biased pro Opus Dei. But then devotees of Opus Dei don't like criticism, so any attempt to criticise the organisation is guaranteed to be edited into becoming a pro Opus Dei fan club. (A friend of mine who runs a bookshop once had two thirds of a pile of a book criticising the organisation vandalised by Opus Dei members. And yes they were Opus Dei members, he caught two of them, one was the ringleader who set up the vandalism and both were not so much Opus Dei members as fanatics who threated him with external damnation for stocking the book. Their method of vandalism was simple; take the book of the shell, stick chewing gum onto its side, put it back, and when it dried the book could not be opened and stank of gum. In his thirty years in the book trade, no other book about no other organisation was so systematically vandalised. But five books on Opus Dei published over 8 years were each attacked and apparently the same thing happened in other shops in other cities to the same books. STÓD/ÉÍRE 01:11 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)
Jtdirl, can you tell me how the article is so biased in favor of Opus Dei? It seems someone took out all the pro-Opus Dei links and replaced them with anti-Opus Dei links. Is that "neutral"? Is that the only valid point of view? If I'm being biased in favor of Opus Dei, tell me how. If you can make a good case for it, I'll fix it. Either that, or fix it yourself.
If you take a minute to review the history of the article, you'll notice that I pretty much left untouched the clearly negative criticisms in the article. [unsigned]
Excuse me. My last edit said "minor changes" but I commented several things out. Why? Because they were
- a) irrelevant because they were included in the criticisms section
- b) saying "The Organization states" and quoting its Statutes is a subtle way of assuming malice.
- c) The section on "Members" was SO BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING I decided to comment out quite a few paragraphs and redistribute it a bit.
Anyway, I think I am going to add some more items in the "Activities", because it is not enlightening. Pfortuny 07:47, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I have reverted the previous edit, which was not a minor change, and totally changed the structure of the article. The current structure is:
- introduction: Opus Dei in its own words (holy workers for God, working for love and peace worldwide)
- introduction: Opus Dei in its critics' words (sinister pain-obsessed cult)
- pro-Opus Dei case in detail,
- critical case in detail
Please let us know what your proposed alternative article structure might be before making further changes, still less marking them as "minor edits". -- Karada 13:11, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Sorry for marking it as minor (really sorry, I realized it after committing). Now I think
- a) As for criticisms in the introduction... well, it is my opinion but I guess it is quite normal to postpone these things to the latter part of any article.
- b) In any case, I'd rather change the "The organizatio states" to "Its aims" because that is what its statutes say and the introduction "They say" is -as you are aware- a subtle POV.
- c) The section members is really boring and contains lots of uninteresting stuff (it can be summarized a lot, which is what I intended).
I want to stress that my marking it as minor was really a mistake (assume stupidity). Sorry again. Pfortuny 13:55, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The entry (at 30-11-03) claims that Cardinal Hume "criticised... infiltration of organisations, both secular and religious". That is not correct. His 'guidelines' say nothing about infiltration. Furthermore, claiming that they do, gives a specious weight to the allegation itself.
The entry also says Hume was a "vocal critic". This is incorrect. His guidelines, which might be taken as (implicit) criticism, end with an explicit warning precisely against taking them that way. He said and wrote nothing else that could be taken as criticism at all. Also, the guidelines make no mention of "unacceptable behaviour", so it is hard to defend the use the entry makes of that phrase.
All this will have to be edited to get the weighting right. (Edit now made)
The entry (as at 15-12-03) contains a sentence giving the names of three people in the USA who are supposedly members: Louis Freeh, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas. For the record, none of them are.
The least confusing NPOV solution would be to delete that particular sentence – which I propose doing unless another simpler NPOV solution is found. (Edit now made)
- All three are thought to be members (Google turns up a number of allegations); none have explicitly confirmed or denied such rumors. The stories about Freeh are somewhat credible, though Opus Dei denies them, but the stories about Scalia and Thomas are just tinfoil hattery: there's nothing to suggest a connection besides the fact that both Justices are, like Opus Dei, conservative and Catholic. I think it's fair to note the rumors, but it would then be necessary to state clearly that they are rumors, nothing more. (There's also a certain Opus Dei priest who is closely connected with a number of conservative politicians; if the other conspiracy theories are to be mentioned, perhaps this fellow should also be in the article.) --MIRV 19:30, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
But Louis Freeh has denied being a member. When asked whether he was a member, he replied that the questioner had been informed incorrectly. That's quite apart from the repeated denials issued by Opus Dei, so how can the rumour still be credible? As it's a conspiracy theory it should either be called such, or simply cut out. And including 'tinfoil hattery' about Scalia and Thomas here is just absurd. The paragraph still needs redrafting or cutting in the first half, which I propose doing unless a simpler NPOV solution is suggested. Asoane 16:54, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I have no objection to calling conspiracy theories what they are. If you think the rumors about Freeh, Scalia, and Thomas are crackpottery, feel free to label them as such -- though a more formal term, such as "unsubstantiated", would be preferable. --MIRV 17:01, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Personally I think they are fantasy. However, I doubt whether a NPOV approach can survive the inclusion of unsubstantiated rumours, even if the denials are also noted. I think you need to separate out the wheat from the chaff and eliminate the latter. The supposed membership of these three people is a good example. Asoane 17:54, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Just for the record, I was a member of a religious group for ten years. The congregation was founded in Spain. The practice of corporal mortification as described in much of the literature about Opus Dei and religious orders within the Roman Catholic Church are indeed accurate. I can attest to having taken many a discipline on a Friday night as well as the daily wearing of a "chain", as we called it. The marks were real and remained with me for months after I left the convent. It people want to really know the truth, they need to merely research church history. It's all there if we are willing to look. Along with my own former congregation, I can name others. Contrarly to what the public would like to believe, it's a much more common practice than not. Members are taught to not speak of it because it is "something that the world would not understand."