Talk:Arain/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Arain. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Arab imaginings

POV statements, opinions claiming a reference which the reference doesn't support, and non-credible references, 193.115.70.9:

[ 2 ] "This view is not, however, shared by the Arabs themselves[ref]".

The reference is a sweepingly racist & untrue comment by a pakistani about arabs- ""Unfortunately, Arabs view all Pakistanis as dirt — our real and imaginary claims of kinship with them notwithstanding.", There is many a slip betwixt cup and lip, Ishtiaq Ahmed, Daily Times, Pakistan, 18/04/2006." This reference provides no support for the view that arabs think anything about the arain at all, so the statement "This view is not, however, shared by the Arabs themselves" is practically made up & POV

Point taken. That sentence could be omitted, but there is a caveat. The Arabs are noted for their passion (bordering on the extreme) for genealogy (Philip K Hitti, History of the Arabs, 10th ed.). Afghans settled in South Asia for well over a thousand years are still acknowledged as "Arabs" (i.e., of Arabic descent) by both the Arabs and the Afghans (cf, Idries Shah's biographical details). What the Arabs think therefore carries some weight, hence the statement is likewise not uninformed as it might otherwise appear.
Kneeslasher 15:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes the arabs WERE noted for the passion of geneology, not anymore, especially since Islam became ingrained in the arab mindset which forbade exreme tribalism. I can confirm with you that Arabs do not consider Afgans as Arabs, Afghanisatn is not part of the arab league, nor do they speak arabic, the main qualification. Also Afghans do not consider themselves Arab, rather the pashtun oral traditions hold the Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites of the Lost Ten Tribes of Isreal, who converted to Islam. There is nothing in the reference to that says anything about what the Arabs think about Arain, it is also an untrue Pakistani stereotype of Arabs, based on the poor experiences of Pakistanis in the khalij or gulf area. Pakistanis would be well informed if they acknowledged that any ill-treatment of them by Khalijis is not against Pakistanis but also of non-gulf arabs such as Egyptian, Moroccan and Yemeni arabs. Other arabs & non-Arabs are also treated similarily to Pakisanis in the gulf by rich khalijis 193.115.70.9 17:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You've grasped the wrong end of the stick here: the Afghan tradition that they are of Arab descent is a can of worms I don't even want to touch. My point was about one famous half-Afghan who was known to be of Arabic (the Prophet's own lineage) descent and treated accordingly by both Afghans and Arabs. However, that doesn't detract from your main point. I'll excise the POV based reference accordingly.
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The Bhutto debacle

Benazir Bhutto has stated in her autobiography that the Bhuttos are a Rajput clan.

From http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/Sindh.html:

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kneeslasher (talk • contribs) 17:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

Origin section -- statistical data re: religious breakdown of castes

I don't want to get into personal spat over this with everybody, I'm just trying to make sure the info reflected on this page is accurate.

As the "Origin" section currently states, "The Arain, despite being majority Muslim, do have Sikh and Hindu members[12], as do the other agricultural castes of the Punjab (the Jats, Gujjars and Rajputs)[13]. The Arab origin claim can therefore be largely viewed as a desire for claiming an unbroken practise of Islam through the ages, for current prestige rather than accurate genealogical designation[14]."

This is misleading, as it attempts to reach a conclusion ("therefore...") from a misleading premise, namely the inference that there is no significant difference between the Arain, Jats, Gujjars, and Rajputs when it comes to the proportion of Muslims in each of the castes.

As the referenced website (Joshua Project, which was originally cited in support of this mistaken premise) actually reveals if you bother to look at the data there, the Arains are 97% Muslim, the Jats are 53% Muslim, the Gujjars are 55% Muslim, and the Rajputs are 31% Muslim. If anyone disputes these numbers, please provide an alternative source.

If there is no dispute over these numbers, then it is clear that the conclusion drawn above is unsupported by these statistics, and the Arain, like it or not, are significantly distinct in their religious makeup from these other castes, a fact which can be explained in various ways, but which cannot simply be explained away by saying, "They're pretty much similar to the other agricultural castes and the Arab origin claim must be a lie."

The Arab origin claim may be circumstantial, but it is certainly not contradicted by the data cited here.

I welcome discussion about this point.

Nizamarain 20:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Why go from good numbers to vague information?

Before we have good information - Arain 97% Muslims - with reference. What is the basis for deleting? This should not be for petty infighting, it should be for facts and conclusions from those facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hangama101 (talk • contribs) 15:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Indian Arain

Why the Section about Indian Arains has been deleted. When There are More then 3 Laks Arains in Indian Uttar Pradesh Bareilly , Pilibhit, Udham Singh Nagar Distt. They Claim their Relations with pakistani Arains and have very disticnt and Unique culture like Paki Arains. Shabiha--Shabiha 10:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Arains are not, and were never, classified as a martial race

To the idiot who persists in peddling myths about the Arains contribution to the armed forces, you are twisting source material and presenting a ludicrous and disingenuous take on the Arains reputation vis-à-vis the military. Please consult the following:

“…Zia came from a community not heavily represented in the armed forces (the Arains from Punjab)…” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ruoBy5dqz1MJ:www.workmall.com/wfb2001/pakistan/pakistan_history_zulfiqar_ali_bhutto_and_a_new_constitutional_system.html+%22Zia+came+from+a+community+not+heavily+represented+in+the+armed+forces+(the+Arains+from+Punjab)&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

“Ethnically, General Zia was from a line of Arains, who do not have much presence in the army, unlike Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan who were Pathans. Pathans are well represented in Pakistan’s armed forces.” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:TBifkQ5dKv8J:yespakistan.com/people/past-presidents.asp+%22Ethnically,+General+Zia+was+from+a+line+of+Arains,+who+do+not+have+much+presence+in+the+army,&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

"The army was an unusual career for an Arain youngster; the British had not regarded the community as one of India's martial races..." (Pakistan under Zia, 1977-1988, Shahid Javed Burki)

If after reading the above, you still claim that Arains can be classified as a martial race – which is entirely your own, biased and unfounded viewpoint – then you are not only delusional, but devoid of all shame. The Arains have never been classified as belonging to those groups recognised as “martial races”, pre or post-partition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.165.145 (talk) 23:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Using a decent language does not hurt, it actually helps. Remember Bhutto was hanged by Zia. Any such comments were natural. Certainly there were no Arain regiments in British India Army, but for that we have to understand the history better. In the war of Independence 1857 there were not many Muslim names who fought Britishers tooth and nail. we can talk of General Bakht Khan and Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi. The latter was Arain who kept the Colonial army out of Ludhiana till he died. Similarly Maulana Habibur Rahman, was one of the founders of the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a movement of anti-imperialist nationalist Muslims of India. no wonder British did not want members of this clan in their army.^[1] —Preceding mmza comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

ADINA BEG KHAN

ADINA BEG KHAN (d. 1758), governor of the Punjab for a few months in AD 1758, was, according to Ahwal-i-Dina Beg Khan, an unpublished Persian manuscript, the son of Channu, of the Arain agriculturalist caste, mostly settled in Doaba region of the Punjab. He was born at the village of Sharakpur, near LAHORE, now in Sheikhupura district of Pakistan. Adina Beg was brought up in Mughal homes, for the most part in Jalalabad, Khanpur and Bajvara in the Jalandhar Doab. Starting his career as a soldier, he rose to be collector of revenue of the village of Kang in the Lohian area, near Sultanpur Lodhi. He obtained half a dozen villages in Kang area on lease and within an year the entire Kang region. After some time Nawab Zakariya Khan, the governor of Lahore, appointed him chief (hakam) of Sultanpur Lodhi. When after Nadir Shah`s invasion (1739) SIKHS started gaining power, Zakariya Khan made Adina Beg Khan nazim (administrator) of the Jalandhar Doab to suppress them. Shrewd as he was, he tried to strengthen his own position by encouraging Sikhs instead of repressing them. Under pressure from Zakariya Khan, he however had to expel them from his dominion. For nonpayment of government dues he was taken into custody under the orders of the governor of Lahore and subjected to torture. On being set free after an year, he was appointed deputy nazim under Shah Nawaz Khan. After Zakariya Khan`s death on l July 1745, his sons, Yahiya Khan and Shah Nawaz Khan contested succession. Adina Beg maintained good relations with both. Shah Nawaz Khan having captured Lahore appointed Adina Beg chief of Jalandhar Doab. Meanwhile, Nadir Shah died on 19 June 1747 and Ahmad Shah Durrani became ruler of Kabul and Qandahar. Shah Nawaz following Adina Beg`s advice invited the Durrani king to march towards the Punjab, warning at the same time the government at Delhi about the Durrani`s invasion. As Ahmad Shah advanced into the country. Shah Nawaz fled towards Delhi. Mu`in ul-Mulk (Mir Mannu), son of Qamar udDin, the chief wazir of the Delhi king, succeeded in checking the invader at Manupur, near SIRHIND. Adina Beg joined hands with Mu`in ul-Mulk and was wounded in the battle. Mu`in ul-Mulk became governor of Lahore, with Kaura Mall as his diwan and Adina Beg as Faujdar of the Jalandhar Doab as before. Sikhs again started plundering the country. Ahmad Shah Durrani launched upon his third incursion into the Punjab (December 1751), this time forcing Mu`in ul-Mulk to surrender. Mu`in remained governor, now on the Durrani`s behalf. He and Adina Beg directed their energies towards quelling the Sikhs. On the festival of Hola Mohalla in March 1753, Adina Beg fell upon SIKH pilgrims at ANANDPUR killing a large number of them. The Sikhs retaliated by plundering villages in the Jalandhar and Bari Doabs. Adina Beg was as quick in coming to terms as he was in opening hostilities. He assigned some of the revenue of his territory to the Sikhs and admitted several of them, including Jassa SINGH Ramgarhia, into his army. Mu`in ul-Mulk died on 3 November 1753, and during the time of his widow, Murad Begam (Mughlani Begam), Adina Beg assumed independent authority in the Doab, extending his influence up to Sirhind (March 1755). The Emperor of Delhi bestowed on him the title of Zafar Jarig Khan. The ruler of Kangra accepted his over lordship. In May 1756, he was appointed governor of Lahore and Multan by the Mughal government of Delhi on payment of an annual tribute of thirty lakh of rupees. Ahmad Shah Durrani came to Mughlani Begam`s help and Adina Beg took refuge in the Sivalik hills. The Afghans reappointed him faujdar of the Jalandhar Doab. During Taimur Shah`s governorship (175758), Adina Beg began to look around for allies with a view to expelling the Afghans. The Sikhs and Adina Beg`s troops joined hands and defeated the Afghans at Mahalpur, in Hoshiarpur district. Adina Beg expressed his gratitude to the Sikhs by presenting a sum of a thousand rupees as homage to the GURU GRANTH Sahib and a lakh and a quarter as protection money for the Jalandhar Doab. Keeping up appearances with the Sikh sardars, he wished to weaken their power and invited to this end Marathas who had taken Delhi to come to the Punjab, offering them one lakh of rupees a day on march. He also persuaded Sikhs to help the Marathas against the Afghans. The Marathas led by Raghunath Rao and accompanied by the forces of the Sikhs and those of Adina Beg entered Lahore in April 1758. Adina Beg got the subahdan of the Punjab at 75 lakh of rupees a year to be paid to the Marathas. The Punjab had now three masters: the Mughals, the Afghans and the Marathas, but in reality only two: Adina Beg and the Sikhs. Adina Beg brooked no rivals, and resumed his campaign against the Sikhs, increasing his armed strength and hiring a thousand woodcutters to clear up the forests in which the Sikhs were wont to seek shelter in times of stress. He laid siege to the Sikh fort of Ram Rauni at AMRITSAR. Before the Sikhs rallied to confront him, Adina Beg succumbed to an attack of colic at BATALA on 10 September 1758. His dead body was buried, honoring his will, at Khanpur. 2 km northwest of Hoshiarpur.

1. Gupta, Hari Ram, History of the Sikhs, vol. II. Delhi, 1978 2. Gandhi, Surjit Singh, Struggle of the Sikhs for Sovereignty. Delhi, 1980 3. Bhagat Singh, Sikh Polity. Delhi, 1978 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.72.215.225 (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a rather long account of General Adina Beg Khan Zafra Jang Bahadar, Ruler of Doaba and Punjab. It has been written from a certain perspective which is amply clear. This is a typical power game. Ascent to power is ruthless and uses all kinds of shenanigans and Machiavellian tactics. History is replete with numerous such heroes. Puritans and Utopians are hard to find. One thing is clear, however. Had he not died, there was no way to snatch power from him. A detailed account appears at http://www.lahorebazaar.com/lahore/dynasty/afghan_period.asp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)