Talk:Chitpavan Brahmins/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Chitpavan Brahmins. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Removal of Chitpavan Caucasoid characterstics

If anyone has objections to the removal of references to the fair skin, light colored eyes and the Caucasoid characteristics that have been used to describe the Chitpavan in the article, please state your disapproval and reasons you think they should be kept in the article. In there are no objectors, I will remove those references in a weeks time. Thanks. Authentickle (talk) 03:59, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

What are the sources for it? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 11:24, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Do we need sources for dropping text? Authentickle (talk) 01:10, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

More concerns

Authentickle, the Gandhi section seems inappropriate as others have said, as though a whole group of people is being blamed for it. And this section:

The BBC reports that a small but growing number of young Indians admire and idolize the universally despised Adolf Hitler. Mein Kampf, his autobiography sells the most amongst other memorabilia such as T-shirts, key-rings with his photo or name.^[1] A shop in the city of Pune nearly sells 100 T-shirts a month with an image of Hitler on them and a popular bookstore in the same city keeps at least four editions of Mein Kampf. The popular bookstore chain , Crossword, sells three copies per day on an average in the affluent Bandra district of Mumbai.

Does the source mention the Chitpavan? If not, this is a WP:SYN violation. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:52, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for the SYN violation. It's been removed. I will find an appropriate Wikipedia page/home for this BBC report. Regarding the Gandhi assassination, if you could point to the line/paragraph that you think implies the whole community, I will be more than glad to fix/remove it. Thanks. Authentickle (talk) 21:50, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact that it's on this page in the first place is a bit of a red flag for me. Have academics discussed the Chitpavan community in terms of the assassination (attacks against them because of it, etc)? We don't discuss the Holocaust on the page about German people, for example, because it wasn't committed by the German people, but by a subsection of them at one point in time. All the more reason to be very leery of introducing one murder, unless there is evidence that this was somehow planned by the Chitpavan as a people, or that it was seen to benefit them in some way, but I can't imagine such evidence exists. And even if it did, I would be cautious in handling it. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:07, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Who is the source for this exactly? What is the relevance to the Chitpavan people as a whole that the wives of two particular killers support the killing, and which source is saying it is relevant to the people as a whole?

The last of the immigrant groups to arrive on the Konkan coast^[2] from an unknown foreign country and late to emerge from obscurity to integrate with Hindu Brahminism,^[3] it is an irony that the Chitpavan community was among the first to embrace the Hindutva ideology^[4] which they thought was a logical extension of the legacy of the Peshwas and caste-fellow Tilak. The Chitpavan felt out of place with the Indian social reform movement of Mahatama Phule and the mass politics of Mahatama Gandhi, which they found effette. Large numbers of the community looked to Savarkar, the Hindu Mahasabha and finally the RSS for inspiration resulting in the likes of Narayan Apte and Nathuram Godse who assassinated Gandhi on January 30, 1948.

Vikram Savarkar whose uncle Vinayak Damodar Savarkar was the ideological guru of Godse and Apte endorses the murder of Gandhi by saying the samaj or community has realized the significance of Nathuram's act. The wives of the assassins emphasize that they have no regrets and in fact feel and express pride in their husbands' acts. Reassurance for such feelings comes from the high level of support provided by Pune's closely-knit Chitpavan community.

SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:35, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted to the May 11 version before this series of edits began, and I removed the DNA section from that version because there was no citation and it was a copyright violation.

I find this version (the version before I reverted) worrying because of the emphasis on violence and the Gandhi killing, the unsourced material, and the SYN violations. It looks as though an agenda is being pursued. There have been complaints on this talk page about the editing, a request at RfPP to protect the page, and I've received a complaint by email too.

Each and every edit to expand the article must be sourced to a very reliable source, with no original research, no violations of SYN, no violations of neutrality, and in particular no undue emphasis.

Authentickle you may be right about some aspects of this, but I'm sorry, you're not being persuasive about it. We need to see good sources in a transparent way for anything contentious. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:52, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

The May 11 version is quite bad in terms of organization, pseudohistory etc. I think we should stick to the June 2 version with removal of contentious stuff about violence etc. utcursch | talk 03:06, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to go ahead and do that, Utcursch. I'm not familiar enough with it to be able to judge what's what. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 03:16, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

The Chitpavan superiority complex

I am not sure I understand what was being conveyed here by the use of the words "superiority" and "inferiority"

To me, "traditionally" (all the elders i have seen) kokanastha brahmans had a tremendous superiority complex (note that this is different from trying to prove that one is "superior" (which imo is a manifestation of an inferiority complex)).

Anyone care to explain? Thanks. Authentickle (talk) 01:07, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

This? It is in general a "brahmanical trait". imho the superiority complex that "brahmans" have is because of so-called-emotional-'perfection' (reaching "godliness" (as a feeling) etc.), i.e. being free of things like jealosy, envy, arrogance, greed/lust, hypocrisy etc etc (which are considered social and personal evils) -- thus brahmans are those folks whose attitude is geared towards tranquility of the senses, extremely tuned senses (i.e. not allowing senses to be under intoxication -- because all intelligence comes from the senses) -- and essentially living in the state of god (as a feeling)- such kind of a psychological state often gives rise to a state of "superiority", because one is "detached" from more worldly things. However, lets not get into the intricacies of these things. Today, as i see it, many young kokanastha families/people lack the austerity to qualify for "brahmanism", and thus in today's kokanastha brahmans i often see a sense of superiority that is false (or "made-up"/facade or inferiority complex really). Tamil Brahmans today are better in that sense. I understand that describing a community is tricky business (esp. a community that prides itself on "individualism"). --Kanishka 03:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kanishkajoshi (talk • contribs)

Are you suggesting that brahmins (Tamil and Chitpavan in particular) are superior and that other castes like the Kunbi, Maratha, Mahar, etc inferior for whatever the reason? If you intend to include the claim of Chitpavan superiority in the article, I would ask that you provide sources. Thanks. Authentickle (talk) 21:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

 :-) Trick question! Maybe we all can contribute in deflating egos and help everyone become superior (and have superiority complexes), rather than feel inferior, try to compensate and be cruel, sadistic etc. Why fight here ? We live in an age of equal opportunity. Let hope that the most-noble people win . Regards,--Kanishka 20:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Controversial Content

Please discuss these claims/comments removed from the main article before adding them back into the article.

(many berbers settled in india were actually shipwrecked traders of Greek origin SETTLED IN EGYPT IN PTOLEMIC REGIME.their religion was confused to be a shaiva religion form by locals . they were employed by local officers as PIRATE WATCHERS they did not enjoy high status in society. they were called HERKARU/ HARKARE mean watchers/informants. GRANT DUFF in" HISTORY OF MARATHAS" has refered to this term specifically. Peshva Bajirao 2 destroyed all copies of first version and caused to plant planted story of resurrection of 14 dead persons.south india copies preserved first version translation by GARCIA DA CUNHA DOES SURVIVE. WORD CHITPAVAN does not in that version exist because berbers called themselves as '"EGYPTAAN"which got corrupted to chitpaan &thence due to nasal accent of coastal people to present .

The above legend probably suggests that the ancestors of Chitapavan Brahmins came to Konkan by the sea.^[5] The Chitpavan are classified among the Pancha Dravida Brahmins. It is said that the fourteen Deshastha Brahmins of different gotras accompanied Parshuram to Konkan and settled at Chitpolan (modern Chiplun). Their descendants came to be known as Chitpols or Chitpavans.^[5] siltation needed.

those on coastal vicinity are dorian types taller than rest pinkish white in compexion .their are some ionian types also in raigadh district with least percentge of light eyes.idol at koleshwar temple kolthare has distinctively non indian features.only two sanskrit texts exst. both refer to their berber origin.(which is a distnct term.) berber most probably refers north african coast on account of port of berbera. indo greek trade used to be via berbera port till berenis port was used after about100 years of ptolemc rule. inspite of overwhelming appearances of foreign looks chitpavans will not admit that they are converts to hinduism. ^{[citation needed]}

that is the reason for reinventing origin from kashmir to andhra pradesh as also from sindh/ coast to bihar.some chitpavans known as kilvant in shatprasnakalplatka are now called kirvant brahmins. peshva family was most probably kilvant.that is why BAJIRAO I coined the term konkanastha.one LELE OF ALIBAUG had tried to ostracise kirvant from brahminikal fold only to embarass first chitpavan peshva. antropological charecters of some kirvant still resemble chitpavans however chitpavan still avoid inter marriage with kirvant as aginst deshastha/karhade brahmins. this recearch based on actual observations is being published. Some one named Dandekar wants to remove MY edt . he is not aware that contents are based on1) shatprasnakalplatika of 1690 A.D. a snskrit text by one madhav of rajapur written before peswai .that book finds corroboration in 1) history of Egypt of ptoleMic era.2)article on socotra island from vikipedia itslf. 3)saraswati mandal nirnay sagar press.1884 by R. B. GUNJIKAR AMONGST OTHERS. IF SUCH IGNORANT CHITPAVANS ARE TO BE ASSOCITED TO SIT ON JUDGEMENTS OVER EXTENSIVE REASEARCH BY PEOPLE LIKE ME THEN CREDIBILITY OF VIKIPEDIA WILL BE !!!!!! AT STAKE. Ihave written 2 BOOKS ON THIS SUBJECT WHAT COMPETENCE THAT DANDEKAR POSSES! CAN I KNOW!LEAST ThAT IS EXPECTED IS FOR HIM TO prove EXISTANCE OF MATERIALS BASE ON WHICH SECOND VERSION OF SECOND VERSION OF RESURRCTION OF 14DEAD IS CLAIMED. BAJIRAO 2 HAD DESTROYED ALL sahyadrikhand copies . THIS FACT IS RECORDED IN saraswti mandal. that book is also most likely to be destroyed from bharat itihas mandal very soon.that is why i am contemplating of republication of saraswti mandal from copy in my personal collectionmy marathi book has sold out like a hot cake. non chitpavan scholars have applauded my reasearch . if some chitpavans do not want to admit to be converts to hinduism they can alway. using crimnal way like destruction of books. Chaphekar also mentions their origin from a Rajput warrior caste. Defeated Rajputs never used to return to their homes, he says. A group of defeated Rajput warriors came down to Konkan and settled to start their new life. These men married women from the Ambejogai region. ^{[citation needed]} Chitpawanas are related to Kashmiri Pandit community. A large group of Kashmiri pandits migrated from Kashmir to south Konkan via Karachi (presently in Pakistan). It is interesting to note that a 'Bodan' ritual of chitpawanas and 'Kanakipooja' ritual of Kashmiri pandits are similar. Both the communities are Shaivaites. Kashmiri pandits have anthropological origin from Kushans, a race from Europe.

According to one theory, the origin of Chitpavans lies at or near Ambajogai in the Bhir district, where their titular deity Yogeshwari is located.

-- Dandekar (talk) 19:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The content listed above was not removed because it is incorrect. The content was removed because it is very poorly worded, unnecessarily capitalized, misspelt, grammatically incorrect, extremely POV and it flouts almost every standard agreed upon in Wikipedia. If you want to add any content regarding any article in Wikipedia, please have someone help you out on how to present the content in proper English. Also, feel free to edit the sections of Wikipedia that adhere to languages familiar to you, so that you can better present your content in your own language. Also, I have no authority in Wikipedia. I am just an editor such as yourself. -- Dandekar (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Rename to Konkanastha Brahmin

The more commonly used name for this community is Konkanastha Brahmin, not Chitpavan. Can someone please rename the title of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.14.9 (talk) 10:52, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

POV

Much is wrong with this article. Intead of facts the article is filled with vain comments and unverified claims. Please clean-up.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.63.89 (talk • contribs)

I agree but I don't know how to edit correctly some who knows about the topic should!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.145.189 (talk • contribs)

The article is a mess. It is full of caste POV: "A typical Chitpavan is usually fair of complexion... He can be called handsome.", "Chitpavan girls possess good physical features", "Chitpavans came to India from Egypt, while others say they came from Greece", "Chitpavans are generally extremists, hence their behaviour is full of contradiction", "A Chitpavan may sacrifice his life for his country but he will not easily part with his purse", "Chitpavan's are generally assumed to be tidy, clean and industrious". Even the references cited include seemingly POV works Chitpavan writers such as Chapekar, M.C. Dixit, Jagannath Dixit etc. utcursch | talk 09:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And I must add, Patwardhan, very much a Chitpavan last name, is my own last name, and my dad definitely isn't fair-skineed nor does he have gray eyes. And you can't make stereotypes about people's personalities, which this guy has unfortunately done. Also, the spelling and grammar are atrocious.

199.111.189.140 05:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)KMP

This has to be one of the lamest articles on ethnic groups of India, infested with weasel opinions on appearance and intellectual abilities. Please provide references to your sources. Also, please DO NOT paste random posts from anonymous users on various internet forums that have no way of being verified("one elizabeth writes"??? Are you frikking kidding me??) .All such sections have been deleted. Do NOT attempt to reinstate these sections without references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.56.128.74 (talk) 06:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

---

I want to make a few statements here which might be a taboo, but yes, there is a politics here and it's simple. There are people out there who try to divide the society into halves on the basis of Brahman - Non-Brahman basis by deliberately spreading hatred against Brahmin community with very objectionable language and very questionable issues. And as one of the important source of reference, they are using our very own WikiPedia.

Some of the statements made in this article are subtly misleading. For example A 2005 study conducted by Sonali Gaikwad and VK Kashyap for National DNA Analysis Center, Central Forensic Science Laboratory, Kolkata, suggests that the Chitpavans may have roots *outside of India, in either Iran or Turkey*.

Here, this is a very well known fact that the lands now known as Iran and Turkey was unquestionably a land of ancient Indian culture, when Brahmins might have originated there. But with this statement, they have been confirming their POV that "Look, the brahmins are Foreigners, rather Invaders who destroyed our land".

अभय आनंद भावे (talk) 06:25, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

If the Persian word Ksatrapavan means a governor or viceroy, then on similar lines what does Chitpavan means?

Many Persian words have been amalgamated into Marathi language. We are so used to it that we hardly notice. What does Chitpavan indicate then? Is it a Persian word too? If the Persian word Ksatrapavan means a governor or viceroy, then on similar lines what does Chitpavan means? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.26.177 (talk) 08:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

You would need to ask at out Reference Desk as this page is for discussion of improvements to the article, not the subject in general. - Sitush (talk) 12:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Shocking!

How poorly this article is written and reeks of insecurity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.221.25.79 (talk) 11:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Login and start editing. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 12:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)