Talk:Haltlose personality disorder

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Archive 1

To-do: E · H · W · R Updated 2021-01-14 Worth including "Haltlose Schizophrenia"? Migrating "Pub. Summaries" facts to other sections Find Hermann Stutte (1960) and Scholz (1912) discussing HLPD children Considering a FORK for HLPD similar to this Find Pyotr Gannushkin, Kurt Lewin, Peter Becker, Alf Ludtke and Christiane Rothmaler as below Possible section for "Sexuality"? (NB: Sexual Haltlose is different from HLPD) Tidy a couple bare references Talkpage archive? Currently over-use "Bleuler said", "Aschaff said", "Roth said", would it be better to avoid constant attribution? (Infer Urve would prefer to keep attribution to avoid sounding definitive?) Flesh out "Ivanov N. Ya., 1976" and "Lebedinskaya KS et al., 1978" and "Shostakovich Boris V., 1971" (his doctoral dissertation was that year) and "Aleksandrov AA, 1978" references, all taken from Lichko who repeats the claims.

Potential sources not yet found, but supposedly discussing Haltlose Personality Disorder

• P. Becker, 'Vom "Haltlosen" zur "Bestie". Das polizeiliche Bild des "Verbrechers" im 19. Jahrhundert' in A. Liudtke (ed.), 'Sicherheit' und 'Wohlfahrt'. Polizei, Gesellschaft und Herrschaft im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert (Frankfurt 1992), 97-132. ("From Haltlosen to Animals: The Policing Image of Criminals in the 19th Century")
• Lewin, K. : Trieb u. Affektäußerungen haltloser Kinder, Ber. ü. d. 4. Tag. für Psychopathenfürsorge, Berlin 1927.
• Becker, Peter (1992), «Vom ‹Haltlosen› zur ‹Bestie›. Das polizeiliche Bild des ‹Verbrechers› im 19. Jahrhundert», in:
• Lüdtke, Alf (Hg.), «Sicherheit» und «Wohlfahrt». Polizei, Gesellschaft und Herrschaft im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert, Frankfurt am

Main, 97-131.

• Rothmaler, Christiane (1999), «Von ‹haltlosen Psychopathinnen› und ‹konstitutionellen Sittlichkeitsverbrechern›. Dir

Kriminalbiologische Untersuchungs- und Sammelstelle der Hamburgischen Gefangenenanstalten 1926 bis 1945»

• Kaupen-Haas, Heidrun; Saller, Christian (Hg.), Wissenschaftlicher Rassismus. Analysen einer Kontinuität in den Human und

Naturwissenschaften, Frankfurt am Main, 259-303.

• Langfeldt, G. (1937). The prognosis in schizophrenia and the factors influencing the course of the disease. Acta Psychiatrica et Neurologica (KjøBenhavn), Suppl. XIII, 228.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/13372372/

Updates Nov 2020

• Changed short description from "Proposed personality disorder" to "Personality disorder" since it is in the ICD-10
• Restored the image for the shorthand symbol for haltlose as no other alt image lends itself to the page unless there is a proposal for another?
• I used the RQuote template instead of Quote template just because it's what I've seen in other Wiki articles and appears to "interrupt" the flow of the text less than having it full-width-of-the-page. I can't find a styleguide on it specifically, open to alts.
• Find it odd that I haven't been able to find any RS that references it being a favored diagnosis in Switzerland, Germany, etc but less so even in Scandinavia or the UK, etc. I understand the ICD/DSM distinction, but it's odd nobody seems to have "officially" commented on its geographic narrowness? Would love if somebody found an RS discussing it since I don't want to add my own OR. (found one)
• I did discover that Bleuler called it "Haltlose Schizophrenia" in 1911, (Der haltlose Schizophrene wird leicht Trinker. Wohl 10% unserer Alkoholiker sind zugleich Schizophrene), but I'm hesitant to add that under alternate-names unless I see it used more commonly. Schizophrenia is listed under the necessary differentials, but I think it would muddy the issue if we listed it as an alt-name. Open to differing opinions.
• Seen passing reference to it being possible to acquire post-encephalatic, but I think that's true of all/most personality disorders? Hesitant to add the information myself, but someone else might find a source and feel otherwise. (found better source)

HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Avoiding an Edit War, but this change removes the most recent addition to the article claiming it is useless because it is 100 years old. Obviously many of the sources in the article are that age, because it is of largely historic interest like female hysteria - and to make the reverts more silly, they are literally complaining that Kraepelin himself should not be allowed to be a source Haltlose Personality Disorder because he's "too old". Wherein it's Kraepelin, it seems absurd, but I am still dropping this notice here out of WP:AGF. Please do not remove Kraepelin-sourced statements as "too old". HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 15:00, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Using historical sources when talking about the history or etymology of the topic at hand is fine, but that's about all I can think of. When describing the current state of knowledge about something, one would obviously expect modern sources. There is literally no reason why someone should ever prefer a 120-year-old source over one from this decade when it comes to describing things like symptoms of a modern disorder. Just because many sources in this article are outdated does not mean that the problem should be made even worse. I still stand by my point that an effort should be made to use modern sources wherever possible as per WP:MEDDATE and WP:AGE MATTERS; I simply see no reason to go against these guidelines.--Megaman en m (talk) 15:40, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

"Use modern sources wherever possible" is fine, if it's possible feel free to add more modern sources - but Krapelin is basically the guy who "invented" Haltlose personality disorder, so it's like saying that we shouldn't be allowed to quote Freud or use articles from before 2010 in the article on Penis Envy...it just doesn't make sense. WP:MEDDATE is concerned about outdated information on whether Ciprolax is contraindicated in pregnancy, not about historical forensic psychiatric terms - and WP:AGE MATTERS likewise says absolutely nothing against this article. It suggests that a 2020 article is better than a 1994 article. Unrelated to your complaint. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 15:57, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Length. As the article gets longer, I'm trying to "combine" two discrete statements into one where possible. For the record, WP:TOOLONG suggests article splitting is not justified on the basis of length until approximatley 50kb of prose and this article is currently 31kb. If anyone sees an obvious fork potential that I don't, feel free to speak up ("Haltlose and family relations", etc). HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 05:52, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Updates December

“	I was very pleased that you wanted to forget everything that happened, and the condition was spoken from my heart. So I hereby promise you to start a completely new, honorable life from today, to live simply and obediently according to your wishes, to go into no more debts and, above all, to tell the full truth in all, even the smallest things . You should see for once that your young son, in spite of all youthful misconduct, is not irredeemable.	”
— Letter quoted by August Homburger[1]

“	"The scrapes into which the [Haltlose] may be led are legion...he never learns, and his losses and failures teach him nothing. He is always on the brink of a disaster...The treatment of such a personality is almost hopeles under the present ordering of society...the prospects of psychotherapy are forlorn and the best that can be obtained will be reached through social control and perhaps some attempt at training	”
— Diagnosis and Drug Treatment of Psychiatric Disorders[Updates-December 1]

1. Would like to find Aschaffenburg's actual writings on the subject rather than attributions to him by others.
2. Have started moving as much as possible out of "Published Summaries" and into more relevant categories, in hindsight I regret making that a subheading of its own since sorting opinions by author is not a great method.
3. Not sure if there's a need for a "Note" explaining Kraepelin's original list of three, then four, then seven subtypes of psychopathy as he broke apart the Triebmenschen, etc
4. Hermann Stutte (1960), August Homburger (1926), Scholz (1912) speak about HLPD in children. Need to find them.
5. Turned up soviet author Lichko who is fantastic as a resource on childhood - wish he wrote about Immature personality disorder as well. May negate need for above, or justify a fork if other childhood authors found.
6. Possible section for sexuality, pulling out the portions from other sections which are currently scattered.
7. Kraepelin, Lichko, Kramer, and Homburger have 14+ references apiece, nice to have a non-German in there.
8. Prose is up to 37kb from 32kb last month; doubt it will ever reach 50kb which is the FORK size
9. Tidy up a couple of references that are currently messy/bare
10. Created Wikiquote page, moved three rQuotes off this page onto there at suggestion of Urve

HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 03:43, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

1. Diagnosis and Drug Treatment of Psychiatric Disorders", page 169

Shorthand script

Why is there an image of the German shorthand script name as an image in the infobox? Is it related to the condition? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:08, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Same reason Psychology has a Psi (Greek) - it's the shorthand symbol for the subject. It's a better top image than a cartoon or letter or any of the other images in the article. HLPD (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Is it actually a symbol, though? Is it used elsewhere as a representation of this subject?

The Psi at the Psychology navigation is suspect, too, and I raised this at the navigation template's talk page.

It's fine if the infobox doesn't have any image at all. No image is better than having an obscure image that isn't used elsewhere. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:31, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

... OK, the Psi symbol was explained well on Template talk:Psychology sidebar. Do you have a similar explanation for this article? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:49, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

New sections

Could use some advice as I try to see how to get rid of "Published Summaries", add in "Sexuality" and possibly FORK out "Haltlose personality disorder in children"...main problem is that the "Childhood" really bleeds into the "Sexual life" (and slightly into the criminology in the sense of child-incest) and I cannot fathom how to either keep these sections separate...or a good way/name to merge them. HLPD (talk) 05:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Made a little progress today tidying up both "Criminality" and "Childhood" into subsections, invite opinions/improvements HLPD (talk) 19:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• Urve, saw this change (the one before it, no issue beyond asking if you think the Criminality might make a better potential FORK in the future than children?) - my question is pertaining to invoking Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Avoid_using_images_to_convey_text. I half-agree and half-disagree, I see the value of the argument not to list text in an image, but I think this is a unique case.

1) The "text" is the contents of a letter written by a mental patient to his mother, which one of the primary authorities holds is a perfect example of the subject matter. It was separated out in "blockquotes" so to speak in the original publication, and I think we generally prefer something like a letter have an image of the letter rather than the letter typed out in an article.

1.1) Since it seems quite relevant as a "perfect example" by one of the leading sources, and PD, if the image were removed I would type it all out and put it back into the article in an Rquote box or similar anyways. But that would require more reading, whereas right now we can let you just read the caption and click to enlarge if you want to.

2) The text is in German, so there's no value to it being typed out in the English-language article. it's preserved here so that readers in the future cannot slowly alter the wording (other than the caption if necessary) - it is preserved to see as an artifact of the subject matter, but even if File:Ebony plaque of Menes in his tomb of Abydos (drawing).jpg could be copied out in ASCII characters...there is value to having the actual image in the article even though it is not showing the original but a copy.

3) A typed-out format would be far more resource-intensive for the reader as it would require first the transcription of the text and then Bleuler's summary of why it is typical of Haltlose personality disorder. There is a reason File:Mrs Thomas Everitt automatic writing.png is simply represented as an image in Automatic writing rather than typed out.

Sorry if I haven't explained myself well or sound snippy, little frustrated by all of this when I can't get five minutes of actual help translating a stub or finding an answer or getting anyone else to take an interest in contributing rather than just campaigning to delete it. There are 200 people a day reading the article, if they all decide to act like this and remove their least favorite aspect while contributing nothing...we really won't last long. HLPD (talk) 01:52, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Hunting Ivanov NI

Lichko offered the footnote to Ivanov, NI, 1976 - I'm trying to track down the Russian study. Best I've got so far is that it's likely the same person, seemingly still alive, who goes by N. Y. Ivanov but not N. Ya. Ivanov...if anyone else finds the 1976 study first. HLPD (talk) 06:03, 13 January 2021 (UTC)