Talk:Hawiye

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The Hawiye are the largest population in East Africa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.145.170.196 (talk) 09:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Size

There have been a number of back-and-forth edits regarding which Somali clan is the largest (e.g. Darod or Hawiye). I haven't been able to come up with any good numbers, myself, but I did cite a couple of sources. This didn't seem to help with the back-and-forth edits. However, in the absence of other citations I will continue to revert to a version that includes them. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC) Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

That text cites its source. Can you explain how you think this should be corrected, and provide a different source to support it? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:30, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

According to Hawiye traditions and elders, Hawiye ancestor is irir and Irir ancestor is Samaale, Irir Samaale ( Irir Samaale) is the oldest ancestor known and there is no such thing as Ram nag, its very much an insult coming from the arab darod clans who lately find out the only real Soomaali people are hawiye whit direct Ancestor of Iirir Samaale who are related to Galla and oromo People. The evidence is not only Galla oromo and hawiye have same DNA,which every one knows but you can also read it hawiye History that " According to tbe accounts received by Sottiro, the Hawiyas have a large infusion of Galla blood, to which may perhaps be attributed the fact that their complexion is of a lighter shade than that of the seaboard tribes." http://operationoverload.wordpress.com/category/hawiye-history-before-the-somali-republic/ not only that But also Hawiye clan names " Hawiye, Gorgarte, Jambeele Karanle Murale " are all oromo and have no Somali meaning all Originated the Original cushitic Languages which have meaning in Oromo Language but not in Somali.

According to the linguistics Soomaali and Oromo and other east african cushitic languages split 3000,000 years ago when people who use to speak same language move apart and migrated from inside eathiopia to kenya and Somalia coast therefore Hawiye was the most important Somali clan who was present in split and split from Oromo and other cushitic tribes to created the Somali section of the eastern Cushitic language, there fore Irir Samaale is the Olderst Known Ancesstor of Hawiye, who related to the great people of Galla and Oromo sources are every where,

Here you can read the Orinigs of Galla and Somali , clearly Galla and Somali" hawiye" originated southern Ethiopia, Somali expanded east and north. and not from North as you cited, on the link i told you to remove. The first written of any Galla or Somali group is found in the wrings of the Arab geography the link below from reliable source, and Hawiye is the first written of any Somali or Galla group. This indicates fist written History is recoded is only after hawiye and Galla Oromo split and clearly this are same people.

http://wisc.academia.edu/HerbertLewis/Papers/188960/The_Origins_of_the_Galla_and_Somali

so please kindly remove it and leave as it was from April this year as shown in the link below. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hawiye

Thank you.

Please note that we can't cite blogs, like the operationoverload.wordpress.com site – better to cite the book from which this was obtained (). In any case, you haven't really demonstrated why the "Ram Nag" information is wrong (other than offering your own word about it). I don't know if it's correct or not, but it is sourced (which is what Wikipedia policy is concerned about). Here is exactly what it says: "Dir, the father-in-law of Darod, is said to be the uncle of Esa Madoba and brother of Hawiya Irrir, who founded the Esa tribe of Zeila and the Hawiya of Somalia respectively. Ram Nag, the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi, are of unknown origin, but probably Arabians who landed at Zeila." (It's only a limited preview so I had to search Google a couple of different ways , ). That said, it does appear to be a footnote and/or part of an Appendix, so I can't tell what the entire context is. For now, at least, we can flag the text in question. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Note also that I. M. Lewis mentions Ram Nag, but curiously cites Hunt as saying Ram Nag was Hindu (). Hunt (assuming it's the same author) speculated Ram Nag was Arabian, at least in the source that we've cited. Again, though, I have flagged the statement in question. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:13, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that the complaints may have more to do with ideology than with sourcing (viz. "its very much an insult coming from the arab darod clans who lately find out the only real Soomaali people are hawiye whit direct Ancestor of Iirir Samaale who are related to Galla and oromo People"). As discussed at length by the linguist Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi on pages 12-16 of his book , it's actually the Herbert Lewis theory above that's the dubious, newfangled one as to the origins of certain Somali clans. The clan genealogy cited in this wiki article is primarily based on an official survey by the colonial administration in British Somaliland, not on private convictions or speculation. As such, I don't think it's dubious. The notion that Ram Nag may have instead been of Indian extraction is also another common account (e.g. ). A third, less common account, is that Ram Nag was of Abyssinian background (I.M. Lewis talks a bit about this as well in that book linked to above ). Also, please note that the wiki passage states that Ram Nag is the supposed great-grandfather of the Hawiye's progenitor, not that he himself is the clan's immediate forefather. The latter would still be the Hawiya Irrir that the user above refers to. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, I believe this ("According to an official Military Survey…") was an important clarification. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

not only ideology but also its very much not related to hawiye and hawiye people.

as you say ("According to an official Military Survey…") by the colonial administration in British Somaliland? Clearly this has nothing to do whit hawiye, because british Somaliland, is not hawiyeland, therefore you should not cite non hawiye related Survey to Hawiye people History and oringin. hawiyeland is Italian Somaliland and Not british Somaliland and you should not cite non hawiye for hawiye.

This is second time I am writing this you should not delete my facts.

If Ram Nag is the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi ." Then that is thier History and Origin and not Hawiye,therefore i am asking you, as a Hawiye Elder reprecentetive remove it and not delete my arguments.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.30.45.98 (talk) 22:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the Hawiye indeed traditionally did not inhabit British Somaliland. However, per I.M. Lewis, the Military Survey in question was conducted in 1945 . That was during the British military administration of both British Somaliland and Italian Somaliland (where the Hawiye did live), just prior to the start of the Trusteeship period . Further, Ram Nag is held to be the father of Zumali/Samale (c.f. , ). And Zumali/Samale, I think you'll concede, is believed to be the founding father of many Somali clans, including the Dir and Hawiye clans. If you know of a reliable source that disputes Ram Nag's association with Hawiya Irir, please cite it. I reckon it would take some doing though since that would also involve disassociating Ram Nag from his putative son, Zumali/Samale. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 11:52, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no such Survey took place in South Somalia where Hawiye live, or even Digil and Mirifl, My own Father was working both Italian and British Regimes from 1940 till late 50's , not only he remember but he knows very well, there is no such Military survey took place in south Somalia where hawiye live, This was only is conducted in The north Soomalia where DIR Isaaq and Darod live. I argue other people who reading to digthis and read the British military History books in British Somali land how when and where and who this survey is conducted, and I will also do my own research and find out, i can guarantee you The Story of Ram Nag is mainly came from the North Somalia clans therefore is their own ancestry and their own History and not the History of the great Hawiye people.

Hawiye ancestor is Samaale/Samaalo and not Zumali. No Hawiye elder ever use such word this terminology it only comes from the North Somalia clans and not Hawiye clan or nation if you ae Somali you know this.

Hawiye people are proud and don't hide their ancestry roots. The Hawiye ancestor Samaale/Samaalo and Hawiye are both related to the great people of Galla and oromo, Not only they where once a same people who split but also Samaale/Samaalo and his sons Hawiye him self and his sons Karanle, Gorgarte, Jenbeele Murale and so on all have names that have meaning in Galla Oromo Rendili Languages. Ask Galla and Oromo and Rindile what are the meaning of these words and they will all proudly tell you what it means in their own languages.

Do not write other people History and origin and link to the great Hawiye people who are Proud who they are and where they came from so kindly Remove it and leave it as Irir Samaale just the way it was.

The Survey you cited have no evidence that any Hawiye person was involved, and you cannot use non Hawiye survey to hawiye people, This is false and mainly other peoples survey not related to the Hawiye people and Hawiye History and their Origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 12 August 2011

Moved from subsequent section

(As this is part of the same discussion it really belongs in this section. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC))

If Ram Nag, the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi, are of unknown origin, but probably Arabians who landed at Zeila. then say it so but you and I and every one else knows he is not Hawiye great great grand father, there fore i still kindly advise you to Remove it.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.30.45.98 (talk) 22:08, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I think you meant to place this in the previous section? Actually, I didn't know that he is or is not Hawiye's ancestor. That's the point of verifiability. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

If you dont know then why argue whit me? , we Hawiye people know it and you should not cite non hawiye history to hawiye and refuce to delete and still argue whit us.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 07:51, 12 August 2011

Please see WP:IKNOW, and if you haven't already, WP:V (which starts by saying: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."). Thanks. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

All the citing and Survey you listed said Ram Nag is the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi, This has nothing to do whit Hawiye, the survey is British Somali-land, Again Nothing to do whit hawiye, Misleading people, that a survey took place that said Hawiye great great grand father is Rag nag and placing same one else History and Origin to Hawiye is not acceptable and should be removed Immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The source mentions Dir and Hawiye were brothers, thus they would have the same great-grandfather. And the text in question has already been re-worded to specify that this is all according to a military survey. Again, though, I.M. Lewis mentions Ram Nag as well. Can you provide a reliable source, other than your personal knowledge, that refutes both Hunt and Lewis, and/or supports a different genealogy? If not, I don't think we are going to get much further with this, though you might consider Wikipedia:Requests for comment. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:29, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Why do I have to supply reliable source ? When you the one who make the change and Introduced Non Hawiye to hawiye History and cited unreliable source " The British Somalialad Military Survey " Hawiye have nothing to do , no evidence such survey took place in Hawiye territory.

The Military Survey is not Hawiye survey, You have no Evidence any hawiye involvement in the British Military survey therefore you cant use non-Hawiye survey to Hawiye History and origin full stop. show me the source ? or simply remove it you should not even question me that and remove it immediately before we even go further.

Ram nag is Dir's ancestor and not Hawiye, place that history where it belongs to "the Dir clan".

Both Hunt and Lewis clearly said Ram Nag the great great father of Dir Samaroon of unknown origin. This is NOT RELATED to HAWIYE there fore you should not mislead PEOPLE Remove it Immediately.

Are Dir and Hawiye a biological brother ? or alliance brotherhood ? This is Totally another topic Even DIR it self don't have same ancestor according to your own wiki citing the Issa clan, therefore i ask you to Remove it Immediately. Do not Place Dir's history to Hawiye people.

The only way we can rest this dispute is two option.

1. Remove it or

2. State the facts as its written in the books and not a twisted word that are misleading.

Here is Facts are quote and quote " according to Survey by the colonial administration in British Somaliland, Ram Nag,is said to be the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi. full stop.

Hawiye and Dir are said to be brothers.

you ether remove, or simply state that facts and we done.

You asked, "Why do I have to supply reliable source?" That's Wikipedia policy, that's how things work around here. So, again, can you provide a reliable source, other than your personal knowledge, that refutes both Hunt and Lewis, and/or supports a different genealogy? For the record, I'm not the one who added the information in the first place. As for the full quote, I did put that in the citation and it is visible down in the "References" section. I'm not sure if there's a way to directly put it in the text without making it look clumsy. Perhaps re-word as follows: "Hawiya Irrir is held to be the brother of Dir, himself the great-grandson of Ram Nag" (I underlined the new part). Otherwise, once again, you might consider Wikipedia:Requests for comment and try and get someone else's opinion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

P.S. The context of the sentence is mentioning great-grandfathers, uncles, etc. so I can only deduce that its author meant "brother" in the biological sense. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:00, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

As you can see, I am new here, and thanks for info, i need your help to request Wikipedia:Requests for comment on behalf of me Wikipedia:Requests for comment to re-word as : "Hawiya Irrir Samaale is held to be the brother of Dir, himself the great-grandson of Ram Nag" for the time been, if you cannot remove it as, Its not directly related to Hawiye.

Thank you once again — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 03:02, 14 August 2011 (UTC) We are waiting, your replay? can you request Wikipedia:Requests for comment on behalf of me and the Hawiye elders that are whit me? the person who put Dir History to Hawiye have to take it out they have no evidence any hawiye in the history linked hawiye to rag nag. Hawiye are not related to rag nag and have nothing to do, please take that history where it belong to. you cannot forcibly link same one tto another person they have nothing to do whit it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Whoever added the content cited two sources to support it, and another editor has provided a third. Can you offer any source that refutes Hunt, Lewis, and Hassan Ali Jama; and/or supports a different genealogy? In the meantime, I'm updating the text to use the wording that I suggested (diff). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hassan Ali Jama is Darod very well known Hawiye hater,who is been writing all over the internet, its very much the guy who wrote Hawiye is " abgaal habargidir" the rest are not related to hawiye, now he realised " Hawiye Girgarte the father of abgaal habargidr' Jambeele, Gugundhabe and all the direct six sons of hawiye and hawiye him self allhave Oromo names and all related so this is why he started the Ram nag story of Dir to hawiye.

Hunt, Lewis both clearly said Ram Nag, the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone find me where they said Hawiye ? therefore you cannot use citing that are not hawiye, and and place Dirs History to hawiye.

We already provide you tons of Irir samaale citing and that is why it stayed that way, so why change? and add Dir granfather to Hawiye and Mislead people? even the wording is wrong.

Dirs ancestor is Aji and great great grand father of Ram nag

Hawiye is Irir Samaale.

Here you can see book citing mixing up all even digil mirifle and sab in clan three that does not exist. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=eK6SBJIckIsC&pg=PA12&dq=hawiye+irir+samaale&hl=en&ei=gDBJToOHC47RrQftrMGMBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hawiye%20irir%20samaale&f=false

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=IPbZAAAAMAAJ&q=hawiye+irir+samaale&dq=hawiye+irir+samaale&hl=en&ei=gDBJToOHC47RrQftrMGMBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA

Hawiye have nothing to do whit Ram nag even if Darods you support and you self keep posting stuff on wiki and other places. Hawiye is Hawiye and related to the great people of Galla and Oromo.

Unless I have missed something, these are the first two reliable sources you have provided (other than, the Herbert Lewis source, to which Middayexpress already responded, and your own personal knowledge). I think these could certainly be cited in the article, although I don't see how they refute the existing sources (just as the existing sources do not refute these, either). In both cases they point to an Arabian ancestor. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:06, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Do my source say ram nag? Irir samaale is the olderst known hawiye ancesstor ever recorded so please dont play games on me so take it out simple is that. Hawiye is not DIR you citing Dir and posting to hawiye is all wrong. and dont start another topic of this Arab thing. the whole arab is the idea of the darod and same dir, we hawiye cannot forcibly be who they are. Hawiye know who they are, the oldest knonw Hawiye ancestor is Irir samaale, so please take it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 15:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hawiye have nothing to do whit Ram nag. please take it out and put that History where it belongs to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Gyrofrog thanks for fixing it. even thou we would love to see it removed but much appropriated for the wording. From the Hawiye elders. Geele, Sadaq Ali Hashi and Oday Dheere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Digil and Mirifle Clans

Digil and Mirifle clans who inhabit most of the Southern portion of Somalia are considered to be the largest clan all over Somalia. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 203.135.0.66 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reference for it somewhere? Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 18:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Digil and Mirifle clans (sometimes collectively known as Rahawein) are the largest clans in Somalia. They inhabit the southern portion of the Somali penninsula. They are about 25% of the Somali population of 10 million people. Generally, they are very peaceful people. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 203.135.0.66 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, a reference would be helpful. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Population estimates

An anonymous editor had added the following:

"The Hawiye population in east Africa is viewed on the whole 6-8 million people, 1.3 million in Somalia capital Mogadishu."

This really needs to cite a reference. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)