Talk:Kike/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Dutch connection?

Kijken is the Dutch verb for "to look (at)" and it is common to hear children in Holland say, "Kijke, Mama" usually pointing at an item of interest. Possibly an immigration of Dutch Jews led to the usage of the ethnic slur. Carrionluggage 04:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good, but got a source? Tomer^TALK 06:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, no source except go to Holland and listen to kids on the street on a sunny day. I have raised this with a liguist once but he said the major Dutch Jewish immigration to the US was in time sequence after the term appeared. Just happened to hit this item at random in W'pedia. I am not sure the major Jewish Dutch immigration is central to the issue if there were some earlier, smaller ones. Am not a linguist - just a tourist struck by hearing "Kijk, Mama" on the streets of Haarlem, Amsterdam etc. Carrionluggage 07:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

This also exists as a cognate in Yiddish itself. My mother often would say "Gib a keek" to mean "Take a look." However, in Yiddish the word rhymes with "peek" and not with "spike". --Rpresser 05:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

"Kieken" is also Berlin dialect and rimes with "peek". (Berlin area was colonised by Flemish settlers). High German would be "gucken", which is a congnate of "to look". I can't imagine a connection to "kike". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.67.93 (talk) 15:03, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

Years ago, a good friend of mine claimed it was short for 'keichel' -- or however it's spelled -- which was supposedly for 'circle' and thus slang for a (vaguely) circular food, namely a hard-boiled egg. Theory goes that Jews became known for requesting and purchasing this food item, manifestly kosher when obtained uncracked. Have no source, but I thought I should pass it along it case it matched up with anyone else's actual research on the matter. BYT 19:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Some of my Jews say that the circle is for bagels, but after reading this page I'm not convinced it even means circle! --Brianmarx (talk) 06:22, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Fanciful, but almost certainly completely bogus. An egg boiled in pork brine is not kosher, since eggshells are well-known to be porous (if it were otherwise, webos ḥaminados would never have become such a delicacy). The "koikel for a circle vs. X as a signature for illiterate Jews" theory is, frankly, far more believable... :-p Tomer^talk 04:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

let's try again: in the medieval ghettos, Jews were required to wear yellow circles on the clothing to designate their religious and ethnic affiliation (like most of the anti-Semitic proscriptions of the Second World War, the Germans were usually not very original and used past anti-Semitic practices in their persecution of the Jews ... eg., the yellow STAR). The circle designation was therefore retained by Jews to donate that they were not Christians when they landed in New York, but could not explain this linguistically to the immigration clerks.♠ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.78.146‎ (talk) 18:15, August 17, 2009‎ (UTC)

Two spellings

The Interactive Dictionary of Racial Language lists this ethnic slur as having two different possible spellings. One in ky and the other in ki, due to the difference between the various Slavic langauges such as Russian, Polish and Ukrainian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.5 (talk) 18:50, January 4, 2006‎ (UTC)

Wherefore are they?

I seen many pages which mention "illiterate Jews." Jews tend to be well-educated people (e.g., doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists, &c.) I've never seen any "illiterate" Jews, so I believe that some writers are mentioning people who never, ever existed. Where are "illiterate Jews" at? Superslum 16:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It probably means illiterate in Latin, versus hebrew or cyrillic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.246.157.168 (talk) 09:40, June 22, 2006‎ (UTC)

Jewish immigrants were probably illiterate. —THIS IS MESSEDOCKER (TALK) 01:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Is the term used on this page? If so, you can fix it. If not, then perhaps you could go to one of the three or four pages where the term is used in Wikipedia and fix it there. Here is a list of them:

http://www.google.com/search?q=+%22illiterate+jews%22+site:wikipedia.org/&num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&as_qdr=all&filter=0

Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 07:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Jews are very well-educated TODAY, especially those who've been in America for several generations. However, that wasn't always the case, especially with many Eastern European Jews who came here as immigrants a century ago. --drumwolf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.171.237 (talk) 11:17, January 5, 2007‎ (UTC)

Even those early immigrant Jews, while illiterate in English, were nearly always literate in Hebrew and Yiddish! --Rpresser 17:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The level of jews depends on a few things You have to remember jews were spread all over the world and that they were treated as foreigners Because of that certain laws applied only to them Some of those were that they can only reside in a certain place And also the education they got they got fro mthe country they resided in and not all of thsoe countries were very developed and education wasn't as important as it is today So it's relative and i think illiteracy should be judged country by country and not globally since each country has different subjects that country thinks is important to learn And a jewish russian may immigrate to America without knowing english (but knowing russian and hebrew/yiddish) but an american growing up in America might know just english Leat's not forget everything is relative and an immigrant would most likely won't know the country and it's costumes

"Kike" in Spanish: not a "formal" first name

"The word is also a formal first name (with a different pronounciation) in Dutch and Spanish." In Spanish, it is not a FORMAL first name. It's a variation of "Enrique," in the same way that "Hank" is a variation of "Henry" in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.166.81 (talk) 12:18, November 16, 2006‎ (UTC)

Foreign names

I'm restoring these details as I believe its very important to the informational value of the article. I've observed more than one online forum exchange where a Dutch or Spanish person who is actually named "Kike" signs on as a new user, makes a perfectly innocent post asking some question or another and then gets attacked by a mob of other posters who think that their username means that they're blatantly anti-semitic and just won't believe the new user's protests that it is it in fact their real name. Bwithh 05:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the information should be in the introduction. It is not part of the definition. I'll move it to it's own Section. Nkras 05:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm okay with moving the bulk of the information to its own section (I've actually given it one now), but I still believe there should be some mention in the intro. The derogatory term may be the primary way this word is known overall, but in some cultures, its not, and the intro should recognize. Bwithh 06:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Added a reference in the intro. Nkras 03:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Ari Louis

I have reverted an unsourced addition by an anon. If it is somehow notable and there is a WP:RS, feel free to readd. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Does This Even Belong In An Encylopedia?

It seems to me that this is a purely Wikionary type term, and the general consensus is that these terms belong as such. Any thoughts on this? Padishah5000 16:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems that way Also it needs to be extanded to include the origin instead of referencing films that used that word to fill it up I have no idea of the origin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.189.119 (talk) 09:12, July 21, 2007‎ (UTC)

Two years later... mission accomplished! Also, what general consensus?  Aaron  ►  23:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of pop culture section

I find that the article is better now without it, good call Nandesuka. Until(1 == 2) 14:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Untitled

"common ending of the personal names of Eastern European Jews"

For example Itzik, Shmulik, it's not a real end of name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolf2191 (talk • contribs) 14:57, August 15, 2007 (UTC)

Zodiac Reference?

The reference to the Zodiac is in dire need of fixing. The cited source only refers to the term Zodiac itself, NOT to the application of the term Kike to Jewish people.

The additional comments about the bible and about Christians have questionable relevance to the etymology of the term Kike. DanGayle 23:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Pictures of Kikes?

Can someone post some pictures of kikes in the main section? Thank you. --98.236.11.20 (talk) 04:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Old Arabic Language is not checked

Supposedly the Arabs would called the Jews a word similar to kike meaning 'cockroach'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.191.211.248 (talk) 03:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Only among lower class Spanish speakers you will find that spelling, being the correct one Quique. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.103.173.231 (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

European Origins

I don't agree with this article's description of the term's American origins. In researching the holocaust in the Ukraine, the Nazis used the term in their notices advising Jews about "resettlement". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.96.143 (talk) 02:51, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

There were no Nazi resettlements going on in 1905. Chronology is a useful tool, if you are able to understand it. OTOH, one comment claimed medieval ghetto Jews were required to wear a circle. No follow up has occurred...173.189.75.8 (talk) 13:04, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Though the connection with "keikel" seems plausible

I have a hard time believing there have ever been illiterate jews, or anyone dumb enough to confuse an X with a cross. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.77.60.53 (talk) 16:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that within the parenthesis, it specifically says the Latin alphabet, which is the alphabet we use now. Also, it's not that they confuse the X with a cross, they just compare it to the cross. To many cultures, the cross is a sacred symbol of Christianity, and therefore the Jewish people felt uncomfortable using an X. MrBlu (talk) 15:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The only place that the term "kikel" has ever been heard is, in honesty, among juvenilles. Usually it has been some taunt on the name Michael, such as "Bob the Slob" "Tom the Bomb" and "Michael the Keikel", regardless of the person's actual religious beliefs. Has anyone ever heard that term anywhere else? USN1977 (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I've not observed that. Indeed, the literature refutes that observation and one citation is in the next section from this one.Wzrd1 (talk) 16:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Derivative?

When asked what it means, a response was "You can't help being a Jew, for they are born into that race. Being a kike is a choice they make, when they screw non-Jews, as if some piece of paper made them God's chosen people" 69.143.110.110 (talk) 04:40, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I'll refrain from asking what you asked to get that response.Wzrd1 (talk) 07:46, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Usage

The Usage section should be removed. First it is principally a simple abridged reiteration of the etymology section, second the only significant claim is that its usage is "rare" in the U.S. and "less commonly used" in the U.K. (less commonly than WHAT remains unstated). A simple sentence in the lede is better. I'd say the term is vulgar, derogatory, and applies to ETHNIC Jews...at least that's how I learned it. The only meaning I understood was as a "them" term (ie. "not us", outsider).173.189.75.8 (talk) 12:53, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Earlier than 1904

This Google Books reference shows "kike" in print in the year 1900. --Rpresser 20:24, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

That's great. I added that reference to the sentence about first useDavid Couch (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Considering Ellis Island opened around the same year as the printing of this book, doesn't this fact cast serious doubt on the Ellis Island circle etymology from Leo Rosten? Shouldn't the article be reworded to reflect this? --Whycantwebefriends (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Racist Term

It should be understood that the word "kike" is a racist term, analogous to the word "nigger." A Jew being called a kike is as offended as a black person being called a nigger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.43.173 (talk) 12:26, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

We don't need that dubious analogy, but yes, it's indeed offensive. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 06:50, 9 May 2016 (UTC)