Talk:Markos Botsaris/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Markos Botsaris. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Albanian

Arvanitika is a linguistic term deliberately ill-defined as belonging to those populations that spoke a language, ascended primarily from Latin and secondly Greek. In fact Arvanitika is simply the Albanian language in the Tosk dialect spoken today in the south of Albania. Any Albanian from the south or the north of Albania can easily understand Arvanitika. Arvanites are Albanians now completely assimilated into Greeks mostly forcibly in order to artificially keep together the country called Greece today that in the 1900s was a multinational country with multiple languages spoken and multiple religions followed. Today, some Arvanites naturally consider themselves Greeks and they know nothing about their former Albanian heritage after centuries of living in Greece and after repressive ethnic policies of the Greek State against Arvanites.

Actually, Alex, Arvanitika is simply an Albanian language despite its huge number of loanwords. I personally don't know if it has the huge amount of Latin/Balkan Romance ones that the other varieties of Albanian do (I believe the biggest part of their lexicon comes from Romance), but indeed Arvanitika acquired a lot of Greek ones (some texts that record speeches made in Arvanitika in the early 19th century are half-Greek lexically, just about). 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, he fought for Ali Pasha as well and Ali Pasha fought the Sultan as well so "he fought against Albanians" doesnt; make him Greek. Mark Bocari is his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 03:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, arvantika is a language spoken before albanian. Secondly, an amalgam of languages older than albanian, such as greek and latin and most of all wider than albanian cannot be considered albanian. About Botsaris. He was a Souliot, and the greek origin of Souliots is granted from Lord Byron himself who lived among them and made troops of them. Also, in a letter written in greek to Catherine the Great of Russia they were considering themselves Greeks, despite they spoke arvanitika too. Keep it Fake referred to Ali Pasha, whose Albanian commanders were taxed by the Souliots and that was Ali's main problem.

And at last, you simply cannot consider somebody Albanian when he fought at will, against Albanians in a National Independence war. Also i did not erase the phrase about Botsaris origins from Scanderbeg, because it might be. How are you sure of that? As far as history says Skadenberg himself had his titles from Byzantine origins. His father was Greek and his mother Serbian. He is Albania's National Hero, simply because Albanians also descend their origins of him. PS: Lord Byron. Byron comes from the Greek name Βύρων. Was lord Byron Greek because of that? -I do not think so... Alex Gerakis, 6:45 8 July 2008 (UTC)

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"First of all, arvantika is a language spoken before albanian."

Duh! The modern Albanian was set much later and borrowed from each dialect, but that doesn't mean Arvanitika isn't Albanian. We can still understand Arbereshe and Arvanitika.

"His father was Greek and his mother Serbian."

You're a funny guy. Are you mad because Greeks didn't fight the Turks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 02:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

"And at last, you simply cannot consider somebody Albanian when he fought at will, against Albanians in a National Independence war"

What Albanians? Did you know that Greeks supported Turks too...in that war? You need to read, read and read books other than what your church hands you.

You just made o completely POV adittion to the subject, also considering every person that has a deal with this, as "church book readers". In fact, you have no objective argument to mention in all that, than high-sky-hanged accusations and personal points as far as conclusions. And this is something i am mentioning on you contributing in these subjects. Above all, you do not even make a try to overwhelm it. Alex Gerakis, 4:43 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Boçari fought for the Greek state independence during Greek nationalism awakening. While there were Albanians fighting on each side, he too was an Albanian speaker that even created the Albanian-Greek dictionary. One may try to downplay that but it is a well documented fact. It is also a well known fact that the Arvanite language is simply a dialect of Albanian written in the Greek alphabet well documented by Robert Elsie and more. This article should mention his Albanian-Arvanite identity right next to his name. See p.225 of The Tribes of Albania by Robert Elsie that is more than sufficient evidence of his Albanian identity. We do not need to hide the fact that part of todays Greek ethnos is composed of Albanian Arvanites and migrants from Asia Minor. Do not confuse Ethnicity with Nationalism. Boçari was an Ethnic Albanian yet indeed also a Greek national. This is something the whole world knows and it doesn't make him any less of a hero to the Greek state. I motion that we include "Albanian" and will do so upon no reasonable objection. Cheers!! JoeTBA (talk) 15:26, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

When will you accept history beyond nationalism? The greek wars of liberation were led mostly by Arbanites (southern Albanians), this is documented beyond any doubt. The greek state was founded on nationalism and ethnocentrism and this hasn't changed ever since..trasforming one nationality into another by simply wading the magic wond. Just pitiful!!! Etimo (talk) 10:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Your communist turkalbanian fantasies would be hilarious if they were not pathetic. The fact that the artificial 'albanian nation' did not exist before 1912 obviously escapes you. At least the Arvanites can see through your pathetic propapanda.

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Keep it Fake (talk) 02:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The Cham thing

I have reverted the Cham template from the arcticle because it seems at least grotesque for Botsaris, a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece to be qualifed alongside Aristidh Ruci, Ali Demi, Kristo Meksi, etc. I do not think that there is any serious source that disputes his Greek consciousness. Being a Souliotis, he was bilingual coming from a group of people, that of whatever origin, where incorporated into Greek nation by will. It's simple logic and I honestly can not understand why this template was introduced anyway, is as absurd as placing a She was German template next to Queen Victoria's article. Kapnisma (talk) 23:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Please, there was a long, (when I say long, I mean too long) discussion on Talk:Souliotes about this issue. Brittanica is a tertiary source, as per WP:RS, it may be there, only if secondary sources exist. Also, there are sources about the Cham thing, and you should not revert them. By the way, Aristidh Ruci, Ali Demi and Kristo Meksi, are just some of them, other being, Markos Botsaris et al :-). The Macedonian page you showed was too serious and thus should be included in this page. But, the Cham thing, is sourced, and thus it has place in here.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Look, my intetion is not to start edit wars or verbal quarrels, but try to follow my logic, Botsaris, of whatever origin was identified with the Greek cause being a prominent member of the War of Indepedence, don't forget that contemporary people considered him Greek, just check the poems written for him and furthermore I do not think that there are sources saing he was Cham Albanian. To qualify his as Cham Albanian is just absurd...

Apart from the above if we follow your logic then, as I wrote above, Queen Victoria was not English but German, Napoleon not French but Corsican, Chester W. Nimitz also German, etc If you disagree then we have to invite a third person to avoid meaningless reverts and edit wars. Kapnisma (talk) 11:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The point is that the sources (and I mean WP:RS, look at the Souliotes talk page) consider him as a Souliot. Now whatever the contemporary people may consider a person (although the majority of that time still consider him like a Souliot), it does not mean that this person is like that. Imagine the people consider someone like son of a Good (case of Alexander the Greata) or like a God disciple or Mesia, it doesn't mean that it should be like that. That's why WP:RS, is used throughout Wikipedia, otherwise it should have been called Gossipedia. May I advise you to look at WP:RS first, then bring and discuss sources to the talk page as a second step (especially for the pages which have a consensual version) and then propably in the end to make the changes to the main page? Aigest (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Read again carefully, what I have written above, before reproducing something over and over. So repeating myself once more, Markos Botsaris, as he is known and listed to all sources, (and not as Marko Boçari) as a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece who had linked his actions and finally his life with the Greek cause was by definition Greek, as Napoleon was French although of Corsican origin, Catherine II of Russia Russian, even of German, etc, etc, etc. It's so simple, of course the fact that he originated from a hellenized albanian speaking community should and must be noted, but not as him belonging to Cham Albanian, Chams were, are and will be forever linked with Albanians beacause they never expressed a different consciousness, on the contrary Botsaris, Tzavelas and the Souliotes, regardless of origin became integrated into the Greek nation, is it so difficult to understand it, or you don't want to understand it? And I can't understand why are you insisting on it by placing his name in Albanian or by the Cham template, do you see any German editor going to Catherine's article messing it up, adding her German name next to her Russian and placing a she was German template? Kapnisma (talk) 15:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That what we are talking about: "An ethnically Albanian community which became integrated into the Greek nation", and as it is an ethnically Albanian community, it belonged to a branch of those Albanians, which is called Chams. You say your self that he became integrated into the Greek nation, but you do not agree that he was An ethnically Albanian who became integrated into the Greek nation. As too many editors, you just try to put only one part of the wiki-truth in the page, and leave every other parts. That is not what wiki is about.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

You contradict yourself, how someone who feels and acts as Greek, regardless of origin is not a Greek? As the perfect examples of Catherine II of Russia, Napoleon, Chester W. Nimitz, Queen Victoria and many, many other are proving the one who is trying to pass an agenta is not me... :) And since you like wiki rules, it's called WP:COMMON Kapnisma (talk) 15:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

By the way, common sense, means common sense, you cannot wait for people to agree with your sense, by saying that this is a common sense, since others have their sense.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

On your logic, Lord Byron, who fought for the Greek cause, (precisely as Markos Botsaris, to be more acquarite was the leader of the Souliot forces, when Botsaris died, and who by the way says that Suliotes were Albanians), is a Greek? But, can you source it? I can source that Souliotes were Albanians, can you source the opposite? Is this just another say-so, if yes, stop it, if no, give Reliable sources in this talk page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Ήμαρτον!!!! I am afraid you do not want to understand, let's wait for an admin... Kapnisma (talk) 16:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Ήμαρτον!!!! Your argument was that they were called Greeks by others at that time, now that I proved to you that Byron, a personal friend of him, calls Souliotes, Albanians, you just do not like it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: But I can not resist just telling you this, how on earth can you misrepresent what I say about Botsaris by the Lord Byron's poor example? Did he come from a hellenized population? MY GOD,HE WAS BRITISH!!!!!!!!! NOT SOULIOTIS... And since you like wiki rules, check Wikipedia:How many legs does a horse have?Kapnisma (talk) 16:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

You seem not to get it. It is clearly unsure when this population became hellenized. The major possibility is that they were hellenized after the Greek War of Independence, as till then they spoke Albanian, were considered Albanians by others, were conscripted in the Albanian regiment of the French army, etc etc etc.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

You said: "don't forget that contemporary people considered him Greek" in your second comment. Do you always forget what you write, or only occasionally, otan se sinferi?Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Παντα προσπαθω να τους εχω κατα νου, αντιθετα απο εσενα που εχεις μαθει μονο εναν και τον επαναλαμβανεις :)

Oh, check this it's Fitz-Greene Halleck, oh! also Henry Martyn Baird ...That Christians, armed in favour of the Koran against the disciples of the gospel, instruct and lead on the barbarous hordes which devastate the land of Cymon, Leonidas and Bozzaris...' oh! and Thomas Gordon ...Marco Bozzaris was a leader of the Greeks in the late revolutionary war: he was killed in the assault of a Turkish camp. oh! and Charles William Smith ...Marco Bozzaris was a hero of the Greek war for independence.; he gained fame for the defense of Missolonghi against the Turks and was killed in action in 1823... Kapnisma (talk) 16:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Pitfully, none of them speak about his ethnicity. They say either that "Marco Bozzaris was a hero of the Greek war for independence" (dah, really?) or that "Marco Bozzaris was a leader of the Greeks in the late revolutionary war", (oh, I thought he was the leader of Turks. Thanks for clarifying) on the other hand Lord Byron a friend of Botsaris say that they were Albanians. In every case Byron is not in the list, since he is a primary source.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh! There are interesting sources about Souliotes

• ] by William Miller ...In Epirus, the Souliotes, an admirable blend of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians...
• Helen Angelomatis-Tsougarakis ...The Souliotes, Christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks...
• Christopher Montague Woodhouse The Souliotes, though Christian were not strickly Greek by race...

Thank you, that is exactly what I mean "The Souliotes, Christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks", "were not strickly Greek by race", ad by the way, do not give me general references on Souliotes, as we have discussed them too much on Talk:Souliotes, where we had this consensus, "ethnically Albanian community, which became integrated into the Greek nation", so you are not providing any new source. I provided Byron, because he was a friend of Botsaris, and talks about the Souliotes of the time when Botsaris lived, more precisly he talks about the Botsaris clan, which he leaded aftermath, not about Souliotes in general. But, neither Byron, nor the three of yours, and neither a bunch of others, do not fulfill WP:RS, as they are primary sources, pre-20 century books and written by non-historians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I advise Kapnisma to try to understand the difference between a Hero of a revolution and Hero's ethnicity may be this will help you [] or even [] I don't see there an american and a greek:) Aigest (talk) 19:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Albanian orthodox?

Really? the Albanian orthodox church was formed in the 20th century (1900-onwards)--85.72.87.202 (talk) 19:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)