Talk:Paraiyar/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Paraiyar. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Haplogroup

There is no scientific reference researches NO SOURCE about haplogroup G2a found within the paraiyar community —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.159.167.41 (talk) 16:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC) - Second comment on the topic: Please provide reference that ALL Parayars belong to G2a3b1. If this is true, this would provide a significant contribution to the Haplogroup G project. As of now, not one Parayar individual is listed in it. - Third comment. The references added do not indicate the haplogroup of Paraiyars. Infact, the second cited reference is contradictory to the conclusion in the wikipedia entry. All paraiyars may be "caucasian", but nowhere in the references are their haplogroup confirmed to be G2a3b1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.183.228.72 (talk) 23:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Citations

Is it possible to get some sources and citations on the information in the article? I was going to tidy the article up a bit, but some of these claims look unfounded and unverifiable. It looks like it has been copy-pasted from elsewhere. InnocentOdion (talk) 14:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed - who are the Mr Clayton and Mr Stuart mentioned in the History section? The editor's neighbours? If this has been lifted without context from the cited source, the article needs to at least tell us who these people are and why we should care what they have to say Redset (talk) 12:38, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

NPOV

The article violates the NPOV in a big way, seems like a vitriolic rant against this particular caste. Calling Aryan beliefs 'idiotic' is not constructive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calanen (talk • contribs) 13:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Groupism i.e., Caste origin

The origin of groupism i.e., caste seems to have started with people trying to refer to themselves as one group. There was no divisions and sub divisions until different people started competing for the same resources and had to organize themselves into groups to improve their chances in competing.

News:Even if you are highly educated ,you wont get a lecturer job at Dr.M.G.R Educational and research institute,run by A.C.Shanmugam ,if the candidate belongs to SC caste.Its cruel to see such a person he doesnt deserve to be a human being.Lathead 12:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This article..

Goes into TOO MUCH DEPTH! It is not formatted properly, and it doesn't sound like soumething in an encyclopedia. It sounds like someone copied and pasted this from something. It is far too long, as well. 164.113.13.229 14:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The paraiyer community in tamilnadu is one of the worst affected society in whole india due to caste based politics ,discrimination,and police atrocities.Even it has nearly 30 percentage population their reprentation in council of ministers , higher posts of government services is minimum.The paraiyer alias Adi dravidar community has been exploited by the sucessive politicians for their political advantage and they adopted paraiyer to be barred from getting political awareness by splitting the dalith leaders or swallowing by giving free bies.The politicians in Tamilnadu will not allow the paraiyer to realise their power of being sizeable voters in all the 234 consitituency or get to know their discrimination in every political party.

What is the reason for their defeat,discrimination,supression and attrocities against them?      
Is the reason, as they are eaters of beef?
NO,they are suppressed in society due to lack of awareness in politics.
The reason is their inability to identify their leader.The reason is their innocency 
The other beef eaters like muslims, keralites are not discriminated ,supressed like paraiyers.
   
This is the right time to identify the correct leader for not only daliths but for the entire
tamil community eradicate the castism.The problem  among the daliths is their inability
to identify their leader.Nowadays the easiest work in tamilnadu is starting a dalith party and 
once again confuse and mislead the daliths in identifing their leader and becoming unity in 
politics.
HENCE I REQUEST DALITHS IN TAMILNADU TO IDENTIFY OUR CORRECT AND SUITABLE LEADER.
The search will continue. 
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kattaan (talk • contribs) 14:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Provide proper citation

The editors may provide proper citations for the notable people belonging to this social group. Thanks --Sureshmaran (talk) 14:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not necessary to provide citations for lists; rather, a statement that they belong to this caste could be made in the article for the individual. So, it is better that each individual in the list has an article of his/her own-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 12:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:LIST#Listed items / WP:PEOPLE#Lists of people Yes, citations are required for lists. -- The Red Pen of Doom 03:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Business leaders in need of proper sourcing

Our guidelines require that lists of people be notable and properly sourced. I have moved the following non-compliant subsection to the talk page until proper sourcing can be provided. -- The Red Pen of Doom 02:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Buisness

• Ramesh, Supertech Engineering
• Arunachalam, Director of Alstom
• Srinivasan, G.M OF Larsen and toubro
• Karthi, Chairman of Chennai electrical pvt ltd
• Ragavan, director of subhiksha

Valluvar

Please can someone provide me with a couple of decent sources that specifically connect the Paraiyars to the Valluvars. This article is a mess & I'll be trying to tidy it up before too long. - Sitush (talk) 18:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Sitush, If you have read the sources,

• Castes and Tribes of Southern India. VI & VII,
  
• Paraiyan and Legend of Nandan, by REV. A. C. Clayton, Madras Government Museum Bulletin, Volume V, NO.2
  
• Volume V20, Page 802 of the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911.Pariah - Encyclopædia Britannica 1911 ,Volume V20,Page 802
  

It clearly states that Paraiyars have more than 300 subdivisions, like other castes in Southindia they are endogamous, do not intermarry with other subdivisions, some subdivisions are treated very low by paraiyars themselves, british colonial Researchers/ethnographers have done deep research found that valluvars are subdivision of Paraiyars, Interestingly among Valluvars there are many subdivisions, in which some who acts as Priests for temples and marriages only among Paraiyar subdivisons which are considered equal to them, among valluvars there are lower subdivisions who have relationship with lower subdivision paraiyars only, this relationship varies place to place, So in order avoid this confusion and contradictions, researchers/ethnographers have clearely summarised/concluded that The facts, taken together, seem to show that the Paraiyan priests (Valluvans), and therefore the Paraiyans as a race.......[Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. VI. Edgar Thurston and Rangachari, K. 1909.(Page.89.)] valluvans are pariah priests and also as a subdivision of paraiyars.Pariah - Encyclopædia Britannica 1911 ,Volume V20,Page 802
1) why do you need other than these sources? everything is succinctly mentioned/summarised/concluded? by eminent authors/researchers/ethnographers
2) have you completely read these above quoted sources in article ?
3) why do you consider them not decent?
4) why do you consider this article(paraiyar) a mess & not tidy in this context?

A clear reply from you will enlighten me for futher contributions like Inscriptions with tamil translations mentioned about paraiyars.

regards --Thistorian (talk) 10:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, the link to EB 1911 that you provide seems not to mention the Valluvars at all and is a tertiary source. Thurston and Clayton are both very old and pretty unreliable (I pretty much wrote the Edgar Thurston article, as well as those for similar people such as H. H. Risley, H. A. Rose, Denzil Ibbetson etc.). It would be much, much better if we could find a modern source that explicitly says that V = P, since otherwise we are relying on dubious sources and, possibly, synthesis.

With regard to your thought of possibly using inscriptions, well, there is a problem with that. You need to be aware that inscriptions, which almost certainly will be ancient and are often fragmentary, are primary sources. We should not use them. If you can find a modern, secondary source that discusses the things then they may have their place but, for example, quoting the Archaeological Survey of India from over 100 years ago is unlikely to meet the Wikipedia standard. - Sitush (talk) 13:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Genetics

Please will someone explain the Genetics section. It is nonsense, it is overly technical, and it doesn't seem to be particularly relevant. - Sitush (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Autosomal DNA

This section promotes, 'Conflict of interest', 'Declaring an interest', 'Defending interests', 'Synthesis of published material that advances a position', 'novel syntheses of disparate material' , promotes editor's agenda', 'no neutral point of view', added comments in article, very dubious statements, This section is irrelevant and violates Wikipedia guidelines, This section therefore reomved . --59.99.10.48 (talk) 17:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

That is rather what I thought when I asked the question in the section immediately above. - Sitush (talk) 17:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Rewrite

This entire article needs to be rewritten. In particular, it comprises substantially of copy/pastes of Egdar Thurston's 1909 work, even when statements are attributed to someone else. This is simply not acceptable & I am half-minded to stub the thing. - Sitush (talk) 17:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Quoting

To follow on from my comment in the above section, does anyone know how to encapsulate what sources say without actually quoting them at length? This article is a ludicrous assembly of quotations, often from people who really do not deserve to be quoted to any great extent (Thurston etc). I have dipped in and out of it for months now but, believe me, unless someone else is willing to take on the task of cleaning it up, I will. The net result of me doing it is likely to be a halving of its length. I can hear the squeals of complaint now, so perhaps someone would like to get their attempt in first. - Sitush (talk) 00:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Adding further details

Found an interesting article one of these days. Would like to know your thoughts as well. Would like to improve the page based on the details. If the details mentioned is true, its a great miss in wiki. Almithra (talk) 23:39, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I have just reverted again. Please read WP:RS for information regarding what constitutes a reliable source, and also note that Wikipedia is neither censored nor bound by the laws of India. - Sitush (talk) 14:00, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Request

Please add information regarding the cast based marginalization that the paraiyar community had to endure. I am of the view that without that information, the article is handicapped. The opening statement about the Paraiyars is incorrect and politically biased. They were by caste or hereditary occupation drummers and thus, by virtue of their handling of animal skins, unclean and polluters of the higher castes. By the end of the 19th century the term 'Pariah', as adopted by the British, had become so loaded and offensive that another term had to be found for them. These two references below might help. Bishop Robert Caldwell in his pamphlet The Tinnevelly Shanars, 1849, habitually refers to the Paraiyars as 'slaves', as in the following ‘The castes to which the greater number of the members of our native congregation belong, form the bulk of the population in the south of Tinnevelly. Of the Christians the most numerous class is composed of Shanars, inclusive of the various sub-divisions and off-shoots of the caste. The next consist of Pariars and Pullers, the hereditary slaves of the wealthier classes; and last in the order of number follow the Maravers, with a still smaller proportion of Vellalers, Naicks, Retties, and other high castes.. . The caste of Shanars occupies a middle position between the Vellalers and their Pariar slaves.' See HOBSON-JOBSON, A glossary of colloquial Anglo-Indian words and phrases, and kindred terms, Col. Henry Yule and A. C. Burnell, 1886: PARIAH s. The name of a low caste of Hindus in Southern India, constitutionally one of the most numerous castes, if not the most numerous, in the Tamil country. The word in its present shape means properly ‘a drummer’. Tamil parai is the large drum, beaten at certain festivals, and the hereditary beaters of it called (sing.) paraiyan, (pl.) paraiyar. In the city of Madras this caste forms one fifth of the whole population, and from it come (unfortunately) most of the domestics in European service in that part of India. From their coming into contact with and under observation of Europeans, more habitually than any other caste, the name Pariah has come to be applicable to the whole body of the lowest castes, or even to denote out-castes or people without any caste. . . The mistaken use of Pariah, as synonymous with out-caste, has spread in English parlance over all India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.180.167 (talk) 14:54, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

English

( anglicised by Europeans as Pariah)?

Not every European speaks english so anglicised by English-speakers or idk but not by europeans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.196.145.2 (talk) 14:47, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Good catch! I've amended the wording. Thanks very much for spotting it. - Sitush (talk) 14:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

What is the Proof that formerly anglicised as Pariah; translated as "slave"? I have read Edger Thurston Books, as well as 1891 Census in both mentioned Parayar, Parayan. So why i should not delete above line? Karthikeyan Raju 08:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Because it is sourced to the Irschick work, which is far more reliable than the Raj "ethnographies". I'm pretty sure there are other reliable sources that make the same point. - Sitush (talk) 10:49, 19 December 2015 (UTC)