Talk:Saini/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Saini. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Quality Improvement - Article almost rewritten but needs more work

This article has been almost 80% rewritten now and continuous attempts are being made to improve the quality of the content and citations. It is now better cited than 90% of the other wikipedia articles about ethnic groups from India. Our aim is to turn this into a top notch academic tract with foolproof references and citations. In a year from now , this article will be among the best written and best cited wikipedia articles on the web. I know the citations still need more work but relatively speaking it is now still better than most of wikipedia articles about Indian/Pakistani castes on quality scale.

Following sections are waiting to be included, pending availability of reliable citations:

1) Queen Sheetla Saini  
2) Banveer Saini 
3) Pre-Jat period Saini rulers of Bharatpur  
4) Saini General in Hemu's army in 2nd Battle of Panipat 

Let us not dismiss the above lightly. These are trails worth following. With the availability of an unimpeachable citation about Rajput General Gurdan Saini from Amir Khusro's work, the existence of credible citations for the above characters seems to be a distinct possibility. It is just a matter of getting hold of the right textual sources. --Internet Scholar (talk) 23:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussions

There were a couple of ignorant caste bigots who had sought to vandalize this article few days ago. A lot of insults and threats of physical violence were exchanged which have been deleted for a good reason as they were devoid of any intellectual merit and were open violation of wikipedia guidelines. A death threat was hurled by a paper tiger much like Cervantes' Don Quixote flailing at windmills. Or if you would allow me some more poetic license, his tongue was perhaps longer than his sword. I am speaking in Freudian terms. So you know what I mean... Anyways, it does not take a lot bravery to indulge in bombastic and vainglorious bluster on internet when you know there is no way of experiencing consequence (atleast physical ones) of one's speech. Even a jackal can hurl a death threat at a caged tiger. It won't make it a tiger howsoever it might want to be thought of that way:-)

These deleted exchanges can be found here for anyone who has an interest in wading through a drain of filth to recover a pearl or two lost there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Saini&diff=288567913&oldid=288428270

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Saini&diff=287744100&oldid=287743843

Hey, i am ur Daddy. This paragraph was taken from your history and it clearly indicates that your ancestors sucked up to the muslim invaders rather than fighting againts him. Now u call urself Sardar. So just shut up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.32.170 (talk) 01:19, 8 May 2009 (UTC) whatsoever ,i m from the most ancient family of rulers mah dear.and i do not think it necessary to indulge in such vulgar filth frm u,u r not surely an indian and if u an american u deseve what happens in ur country,and if u r british u were a nation of merchants and will always be.its written nowhere that sainis were rajputs and mah fathers phd was on rajput divisions i wouldnt obviously mind sending u a copy.on the death threat mah dear,publish it and face the consequences urself,i dare u as u r a jackel urself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.1.185 (talk) 06:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Most respectfully, if your dad is a scholar of history ask him where did the ruling Rajput Surasenas (Shoorsainis) vanish suddenly from the history after ruling Mathura right up to the time of Ghazni's and Ghori's invasions? They are even mentioned in Mahabharata as the foremost Yadava tribe of Lord Krishna. This Rajput dynasty held Mathura at different times right up to 11th century? Respond with maturity if you respond at all. Otherwise, G'day.

The one who thinks that we can just talk like a Jakal on the internet can see me at any time at the Raj Vilas Bhawan at Jadla, Nawanshar, Punjab, just make a phone call before you come. I can provide my phone number here if you want that, and the kind of vulgar language you have used goes to to show how much a scholar you are, and your arrogance comes out thru your addressing yourself as a scholar. Well till now we made no personal comments against you...anyway, we're bringing this out through the media here since you foreigners are trying to change the demographic identities of india. Karan112 (talk) 06:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

BTW , where is this kingdom of Jalda? [ its not a Kingdom, its a principality ] Are you a Ghorewaha of Ghorewala? Why did the Ghorewala present a horse to Sahabuddin Ghori when his soldiers were slaughtering your fellow Hindus, imposing Jaziya, destroying temples, abducting their women as 'right hand possessions', and torturing, humiliating and blinding their proud and heroic king Prithvi Raj Chauhan? Don't you think Ghorewala would have met same fate as Prithvi Raj if he had fought Sahabuddin insread of sucking up to him to get a Jagir? it was a Kingdom then, not a Jagir

okay I stand corrected - kingdom it be then, but you are admitting when the brave king of Hindus Prithvi Raj Chauhan was being tortured and humilated, his Rajput followers being slaughtered or being converted to Islam at sword's edge, their women being taken as the booty of war, your Gorewahas joined his enemies instead of supporting him and facing the heat of the battlefield and persecutions. In USA , we call this the House Negro phenomenon.

"Man, came from Kot Kurman or Kurwan on a pilgrimage to Jawala Mukhi. Near Awak or Rakh, a place in Ludhiana, close to Rupar, they met Shahabuddin Ghori, who was then the ruling monarch. They had a fine horse which they presented to the king, who, in return, gave each as much country as he could ride in a day. Hawaha took this side of the Sutlej, and Kachwaha took the other side; and at night-fall, the former threw down the spear (sela), where is now the village of Selkiana, to show the limit of his domain; while the latter marked the spot he had arrived at by his bracelet (kangan), on the site of the present village Kanganwal. After this Kuchwaha returned to Udaipur, but Hawaha stayed here and held both territories. The accounts of the successors of Hawaha are very various."

How did so many Ghorewalas end up converting to Islam? Did Ghorewala Kachchwahas like the Kachchwahas of Jaipur give their daughters to Muslims? I am glad you want to bring things our in the "media" because a lot needs to come out. There are too many unanswered questions which I hope your endeavor will get answered. It will bring out the true and realistic Rajput history out of the wood work the way it needs to be.

First of all, its not Ghorewala, its Ghorewaha (its not someone's name, its a sub-clan name), 2nd Raja Man never came to Ark, Raja Hawaha and his brother came to Ark , 3rd you are talking in a childish manner, the disscusion was not about my family history but rather about Sainis being Rajputs or not, third Yes i am a Ghorewaha, third the media is only a medium to show how people who have no idea about indian culture and demos are giving the impression that Sainis ARE Rajputs instead of stating that they claim DESCENT from a specific Rajput. And also, the "media" does not about asking people from ex-rulling houses - "Why did your ancestor ally with the Mohamad Ghori or Akbar ?" since these are questions settled in History. Yes, a majority of the Ghorewahas did convert to Islam but you probably dont know, Jadla was a junior prince's estate but when the Rana of Rahon, who had succeded the Raja of Machiwara converted to Islam Shri Tikka Rana Fateh Singh ji of Jadla had severed his head for the act and his Jagir was confiscated but later during the time of Alamgir Aurangzeb the grandson of the Rana's survining son was made a Chaudhry or Governer and he built a Fort at Rahon that still stands there. What i'm trying to say is that if its a question of Islam, it was done by greedy and ambitious men who were more often than not checked for the same. Karan112 (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this response. You have in principle agreed that Ghorewahas gained the principality from Muhammad Ghori who was in his time the greatest enemy of self-respecting Rajputs. The point is that you are admitting that the Rajput tribe that are connected with turned the collaborator of invading Muslims instead of fighting them. Do you agree that not all Rajput tribes were ready to make this compromise and as a consequence got pushed out of power equation , forcing them to take up other professions to survive Muslim onslaught with dignity? You would probably not agree that even Meos, Sansis, Mehtons and many Jat tribes such as Brars and Siniswars have any Rajput ancestry. Did you know that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was from a gypsy tribe of Sansis which had spun off from Yaduvanshi Rajput descendants of Sans Mal Bhati after battle with Khilji. You say it is not history that is the issue here. It is precisely history that is the issue and ethno-history to be more precise. Popular perception as a source of social and historial identity is not always a reliable parameter. The issues of identity is much more complex than you think.

There are three broad sources of history and identity, i.e., self-perception, popular perception and textual sources. Out of these three textual sources are most reliable, the other two are not always reliable. With regard to Sainis , all textual sources seem to indicate a strong Rajput background. The citation provided is explicit that Sainis were Rajputs who relocated from another part of the country to Punjab after the defeat of Rajputs in successive battles with Turk invaders and maintained their Rajput character despite the migration. Nothing is denied regarding their taking up of agricultural profession which was a necessity for any Rajput tribe not ready to curry favor with Muslim invaders. The classification used is 'Rajput agricultural' which is indicated by the secondary source. The same source is also used by Encyclopedia Britannica as a reliable citation. So your frustration appears to be with the textual source primarily. You are not likely to gain much traction on this forum if you are going to attack reliable textual sources and present your 'common sense' as your argument. You are on the wrong forum then and wrong media. Textual sources, citations and references are the stock-in-trade of this encyclopedia.

On another note, if Rana Pratap's desecendants had not compromised with Moghuls , they too would have ended up in a similar professions like that of Sansis, Meos, Ror community, Sainis, etc who put up a brave fight but lost. There is no shame in losing after a brave fight. There is more shame in "if you can't beat them, join them' kind of ideology which many morally degraded Rajput tribes adopted. Rana Pratap died in poverty too. The Rajputs who were able to cling to the power structure during Muslim era did so through compromises which were unacceptable to many others. And this kink of history shaped their identity as they live and express it in the conteporary social milieu. So history is very much an issue here. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.132.217 (talk) 15:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI, I found the following on Ror community article which is interesting:

Rors are the only Kshatriya group in India who did not give daughters to either Turks or Mughals and there is not a single recorded case of a Ror ever converting to Islam. Furthermore, there is also no record of any Ror ever serving a mughal/turk/afghan in the history of India. It has been recorded that Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars are big communities among Muslims and they also gave daughters to Mughals. In similar situations, the Ror decided to fight to the last instead of giving in to the invaders' demands. For this reason, the Ror consider themselves the foremost Vedic Kshatriyas and do not intermarry with Rajputs. Rors uphold and cherish the ideals of Maharana Pratap, who in his time had banned intermarriages with those Rajputs who had given their daughters to Mughals.

Mayankraj Singh Tomar,DHOLPUR HOUSE,opp rawatbhata road rac headquarters,kota rajasthan,ph no 9712342974,lets find out who shoots whome,maleech.

Swell! What chivalry! Now also send me money for air ticket from USA so that I am fly down into your mushy country to fight a duel with you. Or should I ask US army to provide me an ICBM? Go on kid! Don't waste your time here.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.1.185 (talk) 07:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Mr Internet scholar,Cant you even afford a ticket to India. . .why dont you admit that you have nothing to say, you seem to be a kid who has taken to personal attacks when you've lost the argument. Karan112 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC).

Again there is no content in your post worth a response. Bye. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.132.217 (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mr Scholar, the Jat tribes you mentioned descend from Rajputs but please bear in mind that their ancestor at one time was a Rajput, not that they still are Rajputs. You on the other hand are trying to give the impression that sainis indeed still are Rajputs whereas they are not accepted as such anywhere, the Rors explicitly are accepted as a accentric rajput group but the sainis are not Rajputs and are not accepted as such either . Note - They might have had a Rajput ancestor at some point in time. Since you dont have much to say, why are you trying to shift the attention towards the Rajput-Mughal equation ? I'll give a lil quotation too, this is From Sir Alfred Lyall - Rajputs are born worriors, and no family of human race ever possesed so liberal a portion of reckless daring Ever heard of Jaimal Singh Rathore and Patta Singh Jugwat, Jaimal after being wounded numerous times was carried on the back of Kala Singh Rathore as the former wanted to die fighting ..ever heard of Raja Dullah Bhatti who forced Padshah Akbar to shift his capital to Lahore for 20 Years or of the Durga Das Rathore who commanded 30,000 cavalry and of whom Aurangzeb was scared, I'll quote again R S Sharma - Familial and racial pride is said to be more developed in the Rajput community than in any other community. General Knott at Kandahar during the Afghan war in 1841 wrote- It was the Finest thing i ever saw, these 8,000 afghans could not stand our 1,200 Rajputs for even one hour . . . have you heard of Veer Amar Singh Rathore, when he stabbed salbat Khan , the mughal cheif of army, Shah Jehan ran into the Zanan Khana or the women's quaters to hide, after that, Amar Singh killed 100 mughal soldiers before he jumped with his horse from the Agra Fort walls.....could you be kind enough to write about a so-called Saini Rajput Ruller ? Karan112 (talk) 18:32, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

i'll quote more -

1. Dear Mr.Karan here is your Questions answer for Saini Rajput Warrior:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdan_Saini

2. Saini also listed here:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput_clans

Clarkpoon (talk) 21:08, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

You got the stick by wrong end. Nobody questioned the bravery of Rajputs but not all were brave. The brave ones fought to the last and persihed like Prithvi Raj Chauhan, Gurdan Saini, Hamir Dev Chauhan , Rana Pratap, Bappa Rawal and so on. The coward ones betrayed their own and joined the invaders , some even gave up their religion, begged Muslim masters to give them Jagirs, assumed pompous titles, gave away their daughters into their harems. These ones- the very moral scum of Hindu society- are the ones who were allowed to remain in power so long as they were loyal to their masters. You are making a case for them and others make the case for those who fought to the last and went out in a blaze of glory in the battle field like Gurdan Saini. Shoorsainis never accepted the legitimacy of the Turk rule. They remained in perpetual rebellion, first as Rajputs and then as part of the Khalsa....you are the one who is dodging the issue. Please answer again when Hindu temples were being torn down, Rajputs were being slaughtered, Hindu king, Prithvi Raj, was being tortured and humiliated, Hindu women were being taken as sex slaves, what business did your Ghorewaha ancestors, unless they were traitors and cowards, had in receiving Jagirs from Ghori who is the biggest villain of Hindu/Rajput history? Lastly, no Saini has asked you provide them certificate of Rajput background. The textual proofs and opinions of scholars is enough. Your opinion means nothing.--99.233.132.217 (talk) 22:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all Remove the saini guy's name from amongst Rajput Warriors, i dont see how is the question of if sainis are Rajputs or not comes down to knowing of why my ancestors sided with tyrant Shabubudin Ghori, provide me a reaon why i would tell a mere commoner that why did HH take a certain decision. My opinion matters a lot dude. Get it straight Sainis are not Rajputs. They can keep wishing. And soorsaini ? LOL i live in punjab and i've never heard that before. The bible says the earth is flat. Its a textual source, please make the appropriate changes in the wiki page concerning the planet earth. Karan112 (talk) 22:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

And mind you language you serf when you call my ancestors traitors or cowards, you dont even know their names, would you like me calling your ancestors beggars and theives for what they did in India. Karan112 (talk) 22:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Please accept my apologies if that question hurt your pride but it is still an unanswered question. Its okay if you don't want to answer it here. People will understand it given your personal feelings. But look at how you had begun on this discusson. You began with insulting and threatening attacks and from your last post it does not seem you to still recognize your excess. Your problem is that you are not comfortable with textual sources of history. Unless somebody gets you to work with them, it is futile to discuss anything with you with the hope of a constructive outcome. This is an encyclopedia. References , citations and textual soruces mean everything here. If you have a problem with this , you are on the wrong forum. The above refrence about Gurdan Saini is from Amir Khusro's work who was eyewitness to the battle of Ranthambore. If you think that Gurdan Saini was not a Rajput then you are concluding that Sisodia Rajputs were fighting under a commander from a lesser caste. This contradicts your own stand and dogma. This reference has been scrutinized by a number of modern scholars (all mentioned in that article). None has questioned the authenticity of the account or the text that contains it. You are shooting the messenger because you do not like the message which upsets the world view you grew up indoctrinated with. But thats your problem not of those who instead choose to work with the methodological approach prescribed by wikipedia and other encyclopedias. You don't want to believe Sukhvir Singh Gahlot's reference on the Rajput ancestry and character of Punjabi Sainis and this is an author cited by Encycolopedia Britannica as an authority on Indian ethno-histories. In other words you have pithced yourself in battle against all accepted standards of modern scholarship, not just wikipedia. Good luck! Let others know when you have become successful with it. I am unlikely to have further exchanges with you unless you show change in your approach. Thank you for the time you spent this page. I wish you well. Regards.--99.233.132.217 (talk) 14:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

    Are You Agree That Yadu & Yadav's Are Rajputs? Saini's Are Descent From Yaduvanshi Rajputs.
    Yadu -> Yadav -> Saini

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadav#Saini_or_Surasena_Yadav_history

    Hope This Helps! Clarkpoon (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I suppose you still dint get my point. Agreed, Saini is a tribe the origin of which lies with the Yaduvanshi Rajputras, but as of today they are not Rajputs. For being a Rajput, one's mother and father both must be Raajputs. The sainis openly intermary with Jats, Chamars and all other ethenic Groups, how can they be considered rajputs ? Karan112 (talk) 18:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me answer this for the sake of order on this page before some Saini overreacts to this insult and another fist fight breaks out here. You obviously know very little about the history of Sainis as an ethnic group. Intermarriage with other castes has only begun after the independence of India with the growing trend of westernization in the community. I don't think they intermarry with Chamars even now because as late as 1994, there is a report of Sainis involved in the honor killings of their girl who dared to marry outside the caste. There is a Times of India news story of Sainis going to prison for killing their girl and her Ahir husband (reference cited in the article). Very regrettable thing indeed but it shows the rural section of their populace has not modernized as much and are perhaps is as backward as any other tribe of Rajput background in this respect. In Rajputana , some Rajputs are heavily involved in female infanticide out of the issues of pride and honor. Is that a sign of progress or backwardness? The caste pride you value as a Rajput virtue is a sign of cultral darkness. If Sainis, Khatris, Jats, etc have been moving away from it in the urbanized and educated milieu, it only shows a sign of progress. Among Sikh Sainis it is the influence of casteless teaching of Sikhism. There is nothing to be ashamed about it.

A hundered years ago Sainis were as conservative as any other caste on the issue of intercaste linkages. British records indicate that they had been strictly endogamous to the extent they would not even have liasions with Rajput Malis of Rajasthan who are of pure Rajput blood, leave alone other castes of non-kshatriya background . Further, they also practiced regional endogamy within Saini community itself, with Sainis of Hoshiarpur and Jalandhar claiming superiority over Sainis of other areas for right or wrong reason. Sainis like other tribes of Rajput descent have never practiced 'Karewa', while many other Rajput tribes who took to agriculture have practiced this custom leading to their assimilation with Jats. I think in this reference only the cited scholar concluded that Sainis of Punjab and around maintained their Rajput character to full extent, i.e, they never practiced 'karewa' and never gave up carrying arms. Mere involvement with agriculture does not take away Rajput character of a tribe. All Rajput tribes of Punjab were involved with agriculture and were designated as agricultural tribes in Brtish era without exception.

But I don't understand your convoluted reasoning. How can one Hindu tribe fall down by marrying with another caste but within the faith but other Hindu tribes can claim the status quo despite giving their daughters to Muslims who are technically 'malechchas'. How did serving Sahabuddin Ghori, who was a 'malechcha' , did not lead to loss of Rajput status of your forefathers? Why the Jaipur Kachawahas, and all other Rajput tribes of Rajputana except Sisodias, are still Rajputs despite sending thier girls into Muslim harems while other Rajputs who never co-operated with Muslim rulers and fought them tooth and nail lose their status just by marrying with Jats or Khatris who are still people of their own faiths? Maybe you can answer this for me. I have never been able to put my head around it. Hindu society has developed absurdities and contradictions peculiar to its own.--99.233.132.217 (talk) 22:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Sir,if u say sisodias were the only one who didnt send their daughters to the muslims,then u must include Tomars,as there is no such incidents which tarnish the clan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.15.246 (talk) 07:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

My apologies. I think you are right. I checked my sources again and found that Tomars are no where recorded to have followed this practice which led to many Rajputs being excummunicated by Maha Rana Pratap.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 17:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

One looses his Rajput status when he intermarries and mixes his blood with lower or even a higher caste, when you know nothing about how caste calculations then why do you wish to needlessly argue. Sainis are not Jats nor Rajputs, they are Malis, i suppose whom you are calling sainis are the Sens who are called Seni in songs and popular usage sometimes.For example Raja Ratansen, it was common earlier for Rajputs to use the suufix of Mal, Varma, Sen. But even with Sens, most are not Rajputs today and in Rajasthan and Bihar you can find certain communities who name themselves in such a manner that they seem to resemble Rajputs and even in Punjab certain chamars use "Chauhan" now. The ruler of the clan giving his daughter to a non Rajput makes not much difference, a regular practise by the royalty and nobility makes the clan a "halki jaat" or a lesser clan and when such a practise by all the members starts, the clan ceases to be Rajput. And what you call "backwardness" is preserving our ancient pure blood "Chatees Raj Kul". Karan112 (talk) 18:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

"Chatees Raj Kul" list varies from region to region. Colnel Tod gave up the effort compile a list which did not contradict the other. I would be surprise if Shoorsaini dynasty which ruled Mathura upto Gazni and Ghori invasion would not be one of them. The name of the dynasty is inscribed in the Choansat Khamba iron pillor in Bayana. I find your statement "The ruler of the clan giving his daughter to a non Rajput makes not much difference" interesting. This means if a Rajput gives his daughter to a dalit Hindu, he would still be able call himself a Rajput? Strange logic indeed, to say the least. Some would call it situational ethics but hypocrisy is more appropriate word. Thanks.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sen is a totally different sub-caste which is came under Kayastha Caste. If Saini's are malis then how there medals (Army) are more than Jats/Jaat? I'm not comparing to Rajput b'coz rajputs have too many sub-caste under the tile rajput. You can also think it if Mali's start fighting then what wouldbe future of INDIA!!! Rest you are a wise person mr.karan.

98.200.90.193 (talk) 18:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Please do not under estimate the medal tally of Jats. It will be easily more than any other groups based on their overwhelming numerical superiority. They outnumber Sainis by 1:25 ratio on all all India basis. You could say Saini medal tally is proportional to that of other martial groups in reference to their numbers. The comparison with other martial groups has to be based on proportionate numbers. Otherwise, the comparison is not fair. I must also caution you not to belittle the contributions of other groups which are not represented here. Contribution of Jat community against Muslim invasion and British rule are outstanding and second to none. Lets us write about other groups respectfully. This is an encyclopedia and not a social networking website. Please keep your commentary relevant to the topic. We should not be discussing Jats here on this page unless they are relevant to the topic. They are not relevant to this topic. Thanks.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 21:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sen was a suffix used often by Rajput rulers. And India is a democracy who can stop the malis from fighting ? and Mr Scholar, do you want me to provide evidence to show that the Rajput sub castes were classified as "Martial raceor group" and not agriculural. Karan112 (talk) 19:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Malis and Sainis were clearly designated as separate groups in all Census reports of British era. Malis were not enlisted as 'Martial Race' while Sainis were. Don't forget there are Malis who call themselves Kachwahas too. So somebody can wrap this libel around your name as well using your own broad brush style. Refrain from statements which can be easily contradicted by references because they undermine your credibility and waste other people's time. Here is the link to colonial period record from Punjab government gazette. Punjab Alienation of Land Act explicitly enlists Rajput as agricultural tribe

http://punjabrevenue.nic.in/cust8.htm

Scroll down to the end of the page. It says: "(n) Rajputs—An essentially agricultural tribe following custom."

For your information, in order for a group to be enlisted as a 'Martial Race' it had to earn the status of 'Agricultural tribe'. 'Martial Races' were hand picked by British from the broader group of 'agricultural tribes'. For this reason Khatris did not make it to this list despite having a kshatriya ancestry. You need to understand the British administrative policy before making assertions which can be easily disproved. Kindly do not post in this reference again unless you have some reference to back up your claim. Your personal opinions are insufficient to continue this discussion further. Thanks.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 21:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Here is more on the topic. There is no way on earth you could refute this reference. So save yourself the effort for going to look for a refutation. It was impossible for a tribe to be enlisted as a 'Martial Race' unless it was enlisted as 'Agricultural Tribe'.

"A district-by-district classification was published. The 'agricultural tribes' included were Ahir, Arain, Baluch, Dogar, Gakhar, Gujar, Janjua, Jat, Kamboh, Khattar, Khokhar, Labana, Mahton, Mughal, 'Musalman Jat', Pathan, Quereshi, Rajput, Saini, Sial, Syed, Thakur. The siginicance of 'agricultural tribes' is that ones so notified were synonymous with the 'martial races' which the army almost exclusively recruited from.

Source: The Indian army and the making of Punjab, pp 105, Rajit K. Mazumder. Orient Blackswan, 2003

Thanks

--142.142.25.83 (talk) 21:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

First, the statement about the Ruler givving his daughter is regarding giving them to other rulers, second, all you are doing is finding the loop holes in my statements, also, could you be kind enough in providing the oroginal text of the inscription to prove that the dynasty's name is Shoosaini and not Shoorseni and that the Sainis in Punjab are from this Shoorseni ( whom u call Shoorsaini ) clan. And the malis use Kushwaha and not Kachwaha. Karan112 (talk) 22:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Again you are not aware of your illogic. The other ruler in question is not even a Hindu but a 'malechha' who was a destrpyer of Hindu temples and openly an enemy of vedic religion which defines the very idea of kshatriya which you claim to be. Dalit Hindu is still a Hindu and a believer in Vedas. A non-Hindu ruler who is essentally defined as a 'malecha' is worse than a dalit Hindu on a relative scale from the standpoint Vedic shastras. You think that you could give your daughter to a Malecha and still call you yourself a Kshtriya or Rajput, while another Rajput who marries a non-Rajput Hindu somehow becomes lesser of a Rajput. This is the irony! Hello! Wake up! You don't see your own loophole. That is why somebody else had to point it out. Even your Tomar friend from Kota is also aware of this basic fact. BTW, Maha Rana Pratap who is considered to be the epitome of Rajput identity had rejected your convenient argument too. He had declared all Rajputs who gave daughters to Muslims as 'contaminated' or 'polluted'. Accordingly, some would say that your linage ceased to be a Kshatriya or Rajput, as per Hindu Dharma Shastras, the day you accepted servitude of 'malecha' like Ghori. This is not necessarily my reasoning but somebody who identifies Rajput ideal with Rana Pratap could easily reach this conclusion with a good basis.

Here is an interesting correspondence between Prithvi Raj Rathore and Rana Pratap which speaks to this point:

The hopes of the Hindu rest on the Hindu surya yet the Rana forsakes them. But for Pratap, all would be placed on the same level by Akbar; for our chiefs have lost their valour and our females their honour. Akbar is the broker in the market of our race; he has purchased all but the son of Udai (Singh II of Mewar); he is beyond his price. What true Rajput would part with honour for nauroza [the Persian new year's festival, where Akbar selected women for his pleasure]; yet how many have bartered it away? Will Chittor come to this market ...? Though Patta (an affectionate name for Pratap Singh) has squandered away wealth (on warfare), yet he has preserved this treasure. Despair has driven man to this market, to witness their dishonour: from such infamy the descendant of Hammir (Maharana Hammir) alone has been preserved. The world asks, from where does the concealed aid of Pratap emanate? None but the soul of manliness and his sword.. The broker in the market of men (Akbar) will one day be surpassed; he cannot live forever. Then will our race come to Pratap, for the seed of the Rajput to sow in our desolate lands. To him all look for its preservation, that its purity may again become resplendent. It is as much impossible for me to believe that Pratap has called Akbar his emperor as to see the sun rising in the west. Tell me where do I stand? Shall I use my sword on my neck or shall I continue my proud bearing?

Pratap replied to him:

"By my God Eklinga, Pratap would call the emperor Turk alone (the word 'Turk' carries a pejorative flavour in many Indian languages) and the sun would rise in the east. You may continue your proud bearing as long as Pratap's sword dangles on the mughal head. Pratap would be guilty of Sanga's blood, if he was to tolerate Akbar. you would have the better of it, no doubt Prithviraj, in this wordy quarrel."

Kushwaha is just another way of writing Kachwahas. Some malis use Kachwaha while others write Kushwaha. Kushawaha is actually purer form of the term coming supposedly from "Kush" , Lord Rama's younger son.

Shoorseni and Shoorsaini are two different ways of translating the same Sanskrit and Prakrit words. Shoorsena becomes Shoorsaini or Shoorseni in Prakrit. Some Enlish translations use one form while others use the alternate spelling. They mean the same and point to the same word in vernacular. Here is a text from another source regarding Shoorsainis' link with Bharatpur/Mathura region whiere Chonsat Khamba inscription was found:

Before the formation of Bharatpur state the capital of Sinsinwars was at Sinsini. Sinsini earlier was known as 'Shoor saini' and its inhabitants were known as 'Saur Sen'. The influence of Saur Sen people can be judged from the fact that the dialect of the entire north India at one time was known as 'Saursaini'. Shoor Sain people were Chandra Vanshi kshatriyas. Lord Krishna was also born in vrishni branch of Chandravansh. A group of Yadavas was follower of Shiv and Vedic God in Sindh. Some inscriptions and coins of these people have been found in 'Mohenjo Daro'. ' Shiv Shani Sevi' words have been found engraved on one inscription. Yajur Veda mentions 'Shinay Swah'. 'Sini Isar' was found on one gold coin. Atharva Veda mentions 'Sinwali' for Sini God. The above group of Yadavas came back from Sindh to Brij area and occupied Bayana in Bharatpur district. After some struggle the 'Balai' inhabitants were forced by Shodeo and Saini rulers to move out of Brij land and thus they occupied large areas

Source: http://www.bharatpuronline.com/history.html

I hope the above reference will satify you in case you are sincere and not pushing this discussion with defamatory intent. Thanks.

--142.142.25.83 (talk) 17:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Saini's sub-castes

Surnames of Saini's (Hindu and Sikh)

Adhopia, Agarwal, Annhe, Attar, Badwal, Banait, Banga, Banga, Banwait, Baria, Basuta/Basoota, Bawal, Bharal, Bhati, Bhela, Bhele, Bhogal, Bhowra, Bimbh, Bola, Bondi, Budwal/Bodwal, Caberwal, Chandan, Chandel, Chande, Chandolia, Chaudhry, Chayor, Chelley, Chepru, Chera, Chere, Chibb, Chilne, Dadwal, Dakolia, Darar, Daurka/Dhorke, Dhamrait, Dhand, Dhanota, Dhek, Dheri, Dhaul, Dhole, Dhoore, Dhorka, Dola, Dolka, Dolle, Dulku, Fharar, Gaare, Gahir, Gahunia, Galeria, Galhe, Garhamiye, Garhania, Garore, Gehlan, Gidda, Giddar, Gidde, Gillon, Girn, Gogan, Gogia, Gogiaan/Gogian, Golia, Haad, Hadwa, Hansi, Hans, Hoon, Jagait, Jaget, Jagit, Jandauria, Jandeer, Jandor, Jandoria, Janglia, Japra/Japre, Joshi, Kaan, Kabad, Kabarwal, Kabli, Kadauni, Kainthlia, Kalia, Kaloti, Kamboe, Kamokhar-Khatri, Kapooria-Kapoor, Kapoor-Khatri, Kariya, Kataria, Keer, Khabra, Khad-Khatri, Kharga, Khargal, Khatri-Andhaia, Khelbare, Khobe, Khube, Khute, Kuchrat, Kuhar, Kuhare, Lata Longia, Lularia/Loyla, Manger, Maheru/Meharu, Masute, Matoya, Mundh, Mundra, Nagoria, Nanua, Nawen, Neemkaroria, Pabe, Pabla, Pabme, Pama, Panesar, Pangeli/Panghliya, Panthalia, Papose, Partole, Patrote, Pawar, Pharar, Pingalia, Pundrak, Puria, Saggi, Sahnam, Sair, Sajjan, Sakhla, Salaria/Salariya, Sandoonia, Sangar, Sangowalia, Saroha, Satmukhiye, Satrawla, Satrawli, Satrole, Savadia, Sehgal, Shahi, Sinh, Sona, Sooji, Sukhayee, Tabachare, Tak, Tamber, Tandoowal, Taraal, Tarotia, Tatla, Tatra, Tatri, Thind, Tikoria, Togar, Tondwall, Tonk/Tank, Toor, Tuseed, Ughra, Vaid, Vim, Virdee.

Who are Reddy? Saini's sub-caste or other?

-Clarkpoon (talk) 19:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I request you not post this in the Saini sub clan section. Their source remains unclear and it is possible that more than half of them are not Saini sub clans but those of other groups who claim to be Sainis but are not. If you post this then we will have to enforce strict rules to require a citation from a reliable source for each one of these clans. Thanks for your co-operation.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 21:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

And no Reddys are not Sainis.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 21:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

But i read somewhere that Reddy of South claiming descent from Saini's or Yadav. I'm searching for it.

There a lot of people and websites writing nonsense about Sainis and other groups without any basis. If you take another loose approach, then every caste can be traced to some other. Reddys are a separate group. I have checked in all the scholarly works. There is no connection between authentic Sainis and Reddys. Please discuss your source here before posting it on the article. A credible source in this reference does not exist. I would be surprised if there is. Thanks.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

What about Sub-caste Salaria? Are thay Saini's sub-caste?

Clarkpoon (talk) 03:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a refernce is also provided for it. See Geographic Distribution section. They are the largest Saini clan in Gurdaspur. --142.142.25.83 (talk) 14:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Here is a Video song on YouTube which proved Saini's are Rajput.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF_kpcivucM

Rajput Hunde Surme - Sunny Salaria —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.177.102.248 (talk) 06:13, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I am afraid a 'proof' like this is inadmissible. Pop culture is notoriously unreliable source for articles of this nature. Lets focus on citations from Reliable sources only. It is Bollywood and other pop stuff in media which has prevented proper representation of Rajput history and identity by larger-than-life glamourization of questionable clans and rank distortion of some historical events like Jodha-Akbar marriage, etc. With regard to Rajput ancestry and character of authentic Sainis (found only in Punjab and North and some parts of Haryana now) Gurdan Saini's reference as commander of Rajput force, Chonsat Khamba inscription and testimony of noted post-colonial social-anthropologists (Sukhvir Singh Gahlot, Banshi Dhar, et al who are also cited by Encyclopedia Britannica) is a sufficient academic proof. (the only kinds of proof admissible on wikipedia). The pop culture stuff like above proves or disproves nothing. Thanks.--142.142.25.83 (talk) 14:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Mr.142.142.25.83 Salaria is a Rajput sub-caste Then what about Saini? -59.177.101.163 (talk) 05:46, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Sainis differentiated from Punjabi Khatris

Punjabi Khatris are a community who were largely concentrated in West Punjab before the partition of India. They are largely a business community but are also said to have had kshatriya ancestors who later took to commerce during the period of Turko-Pathan ascendancy. They are primarily said to be of Suryavanshi lineages although some Chandravanshi clans may have also merged with them over a period of time. Apart from Bhatias, who are technically not Khatris, but a similar mercantile community, none of the Khatri clans claim Yaduvanshi descent. They are different from Sainis in the sense that Sainis are exclusively Yaduvanshis and were largely based in the rural areas, and involved in agriculture. Khatris on the other hand were rarely involved in agriculture.

Khatri clan name 'Sahni' is sometimes mistaken for 'Saini'. Although both communities were strictly endogamous until a few decades ago, the inter-marriages between Sainis and Khatris are not now unheard of, especially in the bigger cities and Punjabi diaspora abroad.

Another similarity between Khatris and Sainis is that both communities have a composite religious identity. Like Sainis of Punjab, Khatris are also split into Sanatani, Arya Samaji and Sikh affiliations. Like Sainis, within some Khatri extended families people of all of these religious persuasions can be found living in perfect concordance, although such mixed families are probably more common among Sainis. Before the advent of the bitter Singh Sabha-Arya Samaj polemic in Punjab, both Saini and Khatri families would devote at least one son to Sikhism. However in recent times this composite religious identity has largely lost its ground to the puritans on both sides of the religious divide.

Gurdas Singh of Sujjon/Rup Singh of Bhagpur

Somebody has made a mention of one Gurdas Singh of Sujjon in the section " Known Saini Freedom-fighters and Matryrs". I have placed Gurdas Singh of Sujjon in the parking lot on Discussion page, pending reference verification. We will repost it in the above section whenver the reference is available from a reliable source.

The reason is that we have taken great care to keep every statement in the article backed up with reliable secondary source references. Unless a statement is duly supported with a verifiable reference, it is good to follow a conservative approach in permitting new content which is not properly sourced. This is required to keep the article reliable and academic-grade.--Internet Scholar (talk) 13:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

--99.233.132.217 (talk) 02:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

This text is parked here till references are verified. References have been requested from the editor who posted it. Thanks.

Rup Singh (Saini, Badwal) son of Chaudhary Uttam Chand, Fought the World War II, 1947 war against Pakistan and 1961 war against China. He is the Nephew of Sardar Banta Singh martyred of World War I whose name is on the India Gate in New Delhi. He earned many medals during his service to maintain the dignity and the integrity of the Indian Army and his son Surinder Kumar Saini also served Indian army. Rup Singh is presently residing at San Jose, California in USA.

Sursena/Sursen

Saini caste has got nothing whatsoever to do with Rajputs, or Sursens. There is no Race named Shursaini, which this article has managed to invent. The British never considered saini as a martial race, but after a serious manpower shortage developed from about 1916, 75 new classes of recruits were also tried, such as punjabi brahmins, khatri sikhs, dogra jat and sainis, which were all mercantile and agricultural castes. Furthermore, no Rajput will intermarry among saini's. Its becoming a serious issue, and its quite tragic how everyone has started claiming descent from Rajputs and ancient kshatriya kings.

Thanks for your opinion but references contradict it. Jalandhar Land Settlement report of 1880 says Sainis (quoted in the article) were recruited in Army, especially in Cavalry. Same is stated in Julludhur Gazetter of year 1900 as a tribe from which the army recruited . So your 1916 cut off year holds no water. The source you got that info from about Sainis is obviously faulty and written by someone who had not consulted local records of Punjab recruitment centres. With regard to Rajput identity, it has remained a controversial and debated subject even to the present time. The Rajput origin and ancestry claim in this article is properly sourced with citations from non-partisan scholarly publications. If you want to challenge those publications, then this is not the right forum for it because it will be deemed as original research, not something wikipedia rules allow. As regards intermarriage, this is a spurious criterion because many groups have stopped intermarrying with each other for variety of reasons. Maybe certain Rajput or Kshatriya groups stopped intermarrying with others because they were serving invaders and intermarrying with non-Hindus, thus making them - in their opinion- 'polluted'. Endogamy and hypergamy has been a distinguished mark of kshatriya lineages. So your point is a mute one.

The groupings mediated by British colonialists as "Rajput" are no longer considered authentic. Here is what a Cambridge university research papers says on the issue:

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Saini/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

All the references are given in the article. You all are in doubt about the references, so why do not you all check the references beforre blaming the article in general and a community in particular. I feel pitty on every body. I do not understand how you can believe a white man's history who was not even aware much about the Indian history and who was a British. His sole aim was to divide indian society. And also foolish people do not even believe in the sacred Mahabharata and indian puranas but believe in Ibbeston and other white authors. as far as Suryavanshi and chandravanshi point is concerned , I think this should be looked deeply because I believe this could have been done by someone to malialign the community's history in general because I have been following this article so closely. Initial subdivision was chandravanshi. So saini haters please chill out, worry about your caste or community and let us write our history.

Substituted at 20:13, 26 September 2016 (UTC)