Talk:Subak

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Upload

Article by Robert W. Young

I uploaded the articel by RW Young to taekkyon.de: http://www.taekkyon.de/download/Taekyon_JOAMA.pdf I like this article, but meanwhile I found out that there are some flaws in it. Expecially on page 50, where he writes about Subak. For example, Taekkyon cannot be written in Chinese characters and does not mean "push shoulder". This is a misunderstanding because of the book "Haedong Jukji" from 1921. There, the idu -writing 托肩 is used. 托肩 is pronounced Tak Gyeon and it means "push shoulder", but this does not mean that Taekkyon or Takgyeon can be translated like this. So we should be very careful with Young's article. Also, quoting General Choi Honghi's claimes about Subak is not a good idea since he was not a historical scholar. He was the "inventor" of Tae Kwon Do and one of the responsible persons for all the distortion and confusion about Korean martial arts. --Hyeondo (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Move?

somewhat related to Talk:Taekyon, any objections to moving this article to Subak, to be consistent with the revised romanization of wikipedia korean naming convention? Appleby 20:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

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To say that Subak is the same as Taekkyon has to be based on evidence and not mere conjecture. To date I am not aware of any ancient document that will prove this idea. The oldest extant work that depicts empty hand fighting is the Muyejebo Beonyeoksokjip (무예제보번역속집, 武藝諸譜飜譯續集); which was based on Chinese methods. After that we have the Muyedobotongji (again influenced by Chinese empty hand methods). There are only scatter references that talk about Subak (Shoubo in Chinese)and only very recent ones c.a. 1700s do mention Taekkyon. Hence the two articles should NOT be merged.Tianshanwarrior 09:37, 20 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.57.212.10 (talk)

Grandmaster Ko Yong Woo is the inheritor of the Widea Taekkyeon system. This is the system from which Subak created. Grandmaster Ko knows the Taekkyeon system and says that his Master (Song duk ki) and his master (Im Ho) all say that Taekkyeon and Subak is the same, just renamed. Any martial art historian outside of the Widea Taekkyeon circle, cannot know the techniques or have any logical imput. Yes, many Korean records has been lost due to war. Subak belongs in the Taekkyeon circle, the two are the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carverrock (talk • contribs) 02:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC) -The articles should stay separated, until some evidence surfaces.Carverrock (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

No, please do not move or merge the two articles. There is a lot to say about both arts and both arts have some connections. However, they are not simply the same. Especially, we know a lot more concret facts about Taekkyon (which was passed down via Song Deok-gi) than about ancient subak (which was not passed down). --Hyeondo (talk) 20:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I agre

taekkyeon + yusool = soobak

It has always been my understanding that the subak curriculum consisted of more than just kicking. And that it wasn't until approx. the early time of the Joseon (chosun) dynasty that the art split up in a kicking part (taekkyeon) and a grappling, joint manipulation art (yusool), of which the latter later went the way of the dodo.

This is what Robert Young tells us in an article he wrote for the Asian Journal of MA. (which you will be able do download from http://www.taekkyon.de/html/en/download.html

Kbarends 09:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I see. I read your post. I will change all articles accordingly.68.148.165.213 05:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait, what is yusool? I couldn't find it.68.148.165.213 06:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Subak vs. Soobak

Why does Subak refer to Soobak instead of the other way around? Both in Revised as in McCune the romanization is Subak. Kbarends 17:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

If that is true, you may move it at your leisure - I'm pretty sure the guidelines for Korean-related articles mandate the use of Revised romanization. Bradford44 17:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

WP:MOS-KO requires that non-loanwords be romanized using Revised Romanization. Since most people have never heard of subak, and wouldn't know what it is, it is not a loanword (unlike judo and taekwondo, which are loanwords). Using revised romanization, "수박" should be romanized as "subak". Therefore, the page should be moved to Subak. I would have done it without making a formal request, but an admin is needed to move it. Bradford44 13:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Moved. Duja► 08:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Article is incomplete

According to Robert W. Young "subak the only fighting art mentioned in Korea's oldest records, was an ancient, comprehensive system with roots in northern China. Evidence supporting the contention that subak originated outside Korea is provided by Chinese records that list shou bo (Chinese pronunciation of subak) as an ancient martial art in the northern part of the country". see History & Development of Tae Kyon Author: Robert Young — Date: Vol. 2 No. 2, 1993.

Historian Stanley E. Henning also mentions that: The earliest archeological evidence of Korean martial practices (not necessarily of pure Korean origin) is found in one of a group of tombs on norhteast China, an area under Koguryo Kingdom, but colonized and under Chinese military control between 108BC and 313 CE... The murals at this site include one scene wich clearly depicst wrestling (Juedi in Chinese and kakjo in Korean) and another with two protagonist rushing at each other which has been interpreted by some as a depiction of boxing (shoubo in Chinese and subak in Korean). Weather or not the latter scene actually depicts boxing as opposed to wrestling is a matter of conjecture, but what is known is that, already by this time, Chinese martial arts had developed to a relatively high degree of sophistication with a clear distinction made between wrestling and boxing practices." see Traditional Korean Martial Arts Author: Stanley Henning — Date: Vol. 9 No. 1, 2000. Professor Meir Shahar points out to entries in the History of the Former Han (209 BC - 24AD) by Ban Gu, refering to the book Shou Bo see Shahar, Meir, The Shaolin Monastery, History Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts, Hawaii University Press. According to Chinese historian Ma Mingda, Shou Bo was a term used to describe boxing see Ma Mingda 说剑丛稿 /Shuo jian cong gao, Beijing Shi : Zhonghua shu ju, 2007. The above examples precede the Korean sources

--Tianshanwarrior 21:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.39.126 (talk)

Northeastern China, was under the control of Korea and Mongolian forces 2000 years ago, China paid tribute to Mongolia. Chinese Shoubu was also heavily influenced by Mongolia. Chinese history fails to mention the Powerhouse of what Mongolia was and its real influence on the region. Korean was close to Mongolia and had more in common with them. Subak would have been very similar in Mongolia, Korean and China 2000 years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carverrock (talk • contribs) 02:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

All this is speculation. We will probably never know what exactly Subak or Shoubo was 2000 years ago, because, up to my knowledge, there are simply not enough sources. By the way, both the articles of Henning and R.W. Young contain significant mistakes. --Hyeondo (talk) 22:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

"Subak, Subakgi or Yusul is either a specific ancient Korean martial art."

...or what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.164.10 (talk) 09:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Subak's name's definition "clap" supposed to mean something in terms of Subak's sports contents?

Subak's name's definition "clap" supposed to mean something in terms of Subak's sports contents? I've met people who claim that, because Subak's name means clap, Subak should use palm only or hits side only (like clapping). I've also seen some people who claim that, because Subyukta uses palm only, Subak also should use palm only. These claims are not logical. Many sports like volleyball, baseball, curling have sports motions not in the sports titles. Even regular words like horseplay or thunderclap mean different things with jargons (like thunder's clap not being hands nor side-hitting), not to mention including things outside the names. Also, Subyukta uses palms only cause it's convenient for the gaming, practicing purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean Subak also should be slapping with palm only. Explicit proofs outweigh such implicit wishes & imaginations. Sports names do not describe the entire sports; sports jargons don't mean the same as regular words; games created out of sports don't necessarily represent the entire original sports.

Subak means clap. I've seen some people claiming that a sport named clap must have (or is likely to have) only slaps or hits only side like clapping. This has no logic at all. Just because a sport is named clap doesn't mean such. As for the real rule with evidences, here are the following.

"Chosun Common Sense Q & A is Namseon Choi's 1937 newspaper column", "Subak & Subyuk were the same, a fight game which became a drinking game, children's game. The method is fist, grab moving front & back. Hand & fingers bend." It had Frontal slap + punch. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp0fnPMWwAIfsuM.jpg

Older references with inherited knowledge are more credible than recent references with imagination or agenda (bending logic to meet goals). Also, what's important is whether the sources are academically reputable. All my sources are academically reputable; most of the references I show from them also happen to be old as a bonus quality. That record says Subak also uses punch, not just hand (bent into palm). It also says the fist moves front & back.

This Kokuryeo Subak picture with 2 mustache men look Subak & the left man looks frontal slapping (like Subyukta). & Subak punched.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2_mustache_Kokuryeo_Korean_Subak_frontal_slap.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kokuryeo_Korean_frontal_slapping_halfway_to_head.jpg

In 1964, the ethnologist Gimu Hong representing North Korean Science Center Anthropology & Ethnology Research Institute published this book, "there was a game called Subak. This knocks down opponent with punches. Subak was liked by warriors in that era." https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnvJGLBWwAAauDM.jpg

"Yugyuk showed Tagwon", "with 2 hands, hit his face, neck, back, chest, stomach", "really agile in punching such that no one could go near him", I thought that Yugyuk exhibition record also mentioned slapping forehead, but I can't find it. Tagwon punched. http://cafe384.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_search_read?grpid=12vrX&fldid=1LsP&datanum=196

Yongdangsopoom recorded Subak is also called Tagwon in 1621. It also recorded Subak had Subub, techniques. Korea also recorded Baekta became Gwonbub; Korea had Baekta besides "Subak". https://i.imgur.com/4dqubwA.png

By these physical evidences, I conclude that Korean Subak in Korea had straight frontal slap & punch.