Talk:Székely Land/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Székely Land. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Present and past

The article should the present status first and only afterwards what it used to be (a historical autonomous region). The opening sentence "Szekelyfold was .." is improper. Szekelys still exist today (unlike Romans, Huns or Dacians) and they live in the same territory since centuries. The term "Szekely land" evokes first of all the area inhabited by Szekelys in the mind of any Hungarian or those who know the region. In fact, there is barely any Hungarian who never heard of or couldn't locate Szekelyfold on a map. On the contrary, those who know about the historical autonomy of the region are much fewer. Akiss 11:22, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Historical region"

Criztu, why you don't agree with the label "historical region" ? bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:25, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Bogdan, is Szekelyfold a historical region of Romania, or is Szekelyfold a historical region of the Kingdom of Hungary ? -- Criztu 19:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Székelyföld is an historical region. The fact that it is inside Romania is not relevant to its status. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 20:43, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

in this case we'd have to maintain that Moesia and Dacia are historical regions in Romania. -- Criztu 05:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Moesia is mostly in Bulgaria and Serbia and Dacia included at times parts of Hungary (and as a Roman province parts of Serbia), but, yes, they are historical regions. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 09:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

then we have to define what a historical region is.

OK. My definition is that a historical region is a region that has some cultural or linguistic features that differentiate it from the neighbourhood. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

here is the wiki definition of "region" : In European politics, a region is the layer of government directly below the national level. The term is especially used in relation to those regions which have some historical claim to uniqueness or independence, or differ significantly from the rest of the country..

Most words have several meanings. Region may indeed refer to a level of government, but it has several other meanings as well. Here, we are not talking about present-day EU politics, we are talking about culture, history etc--Tamas 19:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

if you say "Szekelyfol is a region in Romania", then you are talking about present-day EU politics. if you are talking about things in the past then you say "Szekelyfold was a region in the kingdom of Hungary" -- Criztu 20:13, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

and the wiki definition of "historical" : History is a term for information about the past.

• is there a current layer of government for Szekelyfold ? there isn't
• was there a layer of government for Szekelyfold ? there was, during the Kingdom of Hungary

can we safely say "Szekelyfold was in the past a historical (meaning it was in the past) region (meaning it had a layer of government) in/of the Kingdom of Hungary" ?

can we safely say "Szekelyfold is in our days a historical (meaning it was in the past) region (meaning it has a layer of government) in/of Romania" ? -- Criztu 19:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• to get a better picture, here is the formulation for Northumbria : Northumbria is primarily the name of an Anglian or Anglo-Saxon kingdom which was formed in Great Britain at the beginning of the 7th century, and of the much smaller earldom which succeeded the kingdom. The name reflects that of the southern limit to the kingdom's territory, which was the River Humber, and in the 12th century writings of Henry of Huntingdon the kingdom was defined as one of the Heptarchy of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. and the formulation for Anjou : Anjou is a former county (c.880), duchy (1360) and province centred on the city of Angers in the lower Loire Valley of western France. It corresponds largely to the present-day département of Maine-et-Loire. and the formulation for Aquitaine : Aquitaine (Gascon and Occitan: Aquitània; Basque: Akitania) (anciently "Guyenne" or "Guienne") now forms a région in south-western France along the Atlantic Ocean and the Pyrenees mountain range on the border with Spain.

so there is no "Northumbria is a historical region (kingdom in this instance) in England" and there is no "Anjou is a historical region (province in this instance) in France" , but there is a "Aquitaine is a region in France" -- Criztu 19:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ardeal is a historical region of Romania, and officialy it can be reffered to as such today. Szekelyfold was a historical region of the Kingdom of Hungary, not of Romania. That is why there is a szekler initiative to attain recognition of a Szekelyfold, historicaly bonded by the Kingdom of Hungary, not by Romania, nor with any form of romanian administration. It has no history with Romania. Szekelyfold never was a region of (or within the borders of) Romania, and certainly not "is". It was a region of the kingdom of Hungary hundred years ago, as Scythia minor was a province of the Roman empire thousand years ago. yet there is no article stating that "Scythia minor is a historical region in Romania" -- Criztu 11:32, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, you want to make sure that the readers doesn't want to believe it is a historical region of Romania ? I'll try to rephrase it. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I want to make sure we write about things that were in the past, like "Szekelyfold", and things that are in the present, like Harghita, Covasna and parts of Mures counties. -- Criztu 19:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

an then why not listing all administrative regions that existed during the Kingdom of Hungary in the territory that is now within Romanian borders, say "Kis-Kukulo is a historical county in Romania" ? >:) - Criztu 11:52, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Because a region has to do with the culture and people, while a county has to do with internal political organization. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

can you show any romanian official map with a "Sekelyfold" region/province alongside Oltenia, Muntenia, Ardeal, Moldova, Dobrogea, Basarabia, Bucovina, Maramures, Crisana and Banat ? -- Criztu 19:47, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Can you show any official Turkish map with a Kurdistan region/province? Official maps can be quite misleading in this respect.--Tamas 07:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

can you show any official American map with a historical Apache/Comanche region ? Can you show any official Hungarian map with a historical Municipium Iassorum (Yazigia) region ? :) -- Criztu 09:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:)Let me put it this way. (1) Szekelyfold is a historical region. (2) Presently, Szekelyfold is in Romania. (1) and (2): Szekelyfold is a historical region in Romania. Or we could say: Szekelyfold is historical region presently situated in Romania. And as far as official maps are concerned, I do not think official maps should decide what is a historical region and what is not. Official maps contain the present-day administrative division of a country, which may or may not coincide with historical regions.--Tamas 17:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

it is obvious that you ignore that "Szekelyfold was" and you want to keep the formulation "Szekelyfold is". i'd say you are making efforts to attain unofficial recognition of a "Szekelyfold autonomous region in Romania" :) -- Criztu 20:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the record: I do not agree with Criztu's latest reformulation. I think the part was OK as it was. A historical region does not cease to exist just because administrative boundaries are redrawn.--Tamas 20:01, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

unfortunately the term "historical region" is used mainly by nationalist hungarian propaganda, no other article on "regions that were and ceased to exist" has the label "is a historical region in [country]" except for the articles about the regions that once belonged to Hungary -- Criztu 20:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is not true. Try and run a search for "historical region". You will get 338 hits, among them Historical regions of Central Europe, Historical regions of the Balkan Peninsula. Some historical regions do not coincide with any present-day administrative region, e.g. Lusatia. (quote from the page: "Lusatia is not an administrative unit") So as far as the established practices of Wikipedia are concerned, there is nothing agains calling Szeklerland a historical region.--Tamas 21:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

funny, many of those articles are locked, and few have the the formulation "is a historical region". I think it is fair to say "Szekelyfold was a region". The Szekely population continues to live in the former Szekelyfold region, and they are wishing for official autonomous status for a Szekelyfold region. But, there is no region Szekelyfold in Romania. pls understand you can write about the existence of a "past Szekelfold", but speaking about existence of a "present-day Szekelyfold" when there are other forms of administration in its place is in my view a form of propaganda. I can't agree with you stating "Szekelyfold is a region in Romania". sorry -- Criztu 05:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, I think the main difference between us is that you interpret region in purely administrative terms, why I believe that region can be used in a broader sense: cultural, ethnographical whatever. Anyway, I do not want to push this issue any further, if the sentence "The term Szekelyfold is also used in a cultural-ethnographical sense, i.e., referring to the territories inhabited by the Székelys." can stay it is fine for me.--Tamas 09:17, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

History

I tried to add some content about the history and development of the region. I know it is not perfect and far from finished, so please help if you can.--Tamas 22:08, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Székely land

I am thinking of including the definiton of the "historical Szekelyland". I think, the areas where the historical royal privileges were effective could be a possible way to define it. The land belonging to the communities of the former Székely Seats (Székely Székek) before the 1867 administrative reform may be a good basis (Aranyosszék, Csíkszék, Udvarhelyszék, Marosszék, Háromszék). I would not include villages of Székelys outside these areas (eg. in Moldova, Bukovina) because the historical royal privileges did not have any effect in these areas. --KIDB 15:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Number of szekelys in Romania

here, the number of szekelys are 1,624,959 in a 1992 census. Approximately this number (1,5 million) is considered as number of ethnic hungarians in Romania, but Romanian nationalists consider this number around 670.000. I don't know wheter the mentioned census is newer than 1992, or not, but I'm absolutely sure, that the 1.6 million can't reduce to 670.000 in 13 years (1992-2005), the number of them here is 1,431,807, so I changed the number of them into approx 1.4 million.

Other: In Hungary, every ethnic hungarian who lives in Romania is (very often) considered as Szekelys ----VinceB 19:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)--

[the 2002 census], at the homepage of the political group: Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania

Székely people in the Kingdom of Hungary

Vince, Székely are the people who live in the regions shown in this image. Indeed, there are some people who do not know what the difference is between Székelys and other Magyars, this article is to inform them about it. I will revert your edit. --KIDB 08:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I moved it to "Székely land"

Well... our policy says to use English when there is an available name. For example, we have Basque Country and not "Euskal Herria". bogdan 21:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't Székely Land be better? Olessi 23:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point :-) bogdan 18:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia naming conventions

Why so many Wikipedia pages on cities with Hungarian majority promote dual names and worse, sometimes the Hungarian name ahead of the official one? The naming conventions are very clear: we use the English name and if none is available we use the official local name. And there's only one such name, so there's no debate about it. If it's no historical context (like the geography of the place today, or events happening in the last few years), there's no reason to use other name (or alternate names). Daizus 17:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)