Talk:Vanniyar/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Vanniar kula kshathriyar

vanniar and vanniyar can be merged together as both terms are used interchangeably. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.139.11 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 22 October 2006

The content of the two was nearly identical, so I redirected vanniar to this article. Picaroon9288 17:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

can change the picture...

Is it necessary to put veerappan picture to say that he was a vanniar? The main picture can be replaed by with "agni kundam" wich is used as the symbol for vanniarsMoulee 23:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Moulee

the same picture is used for "veerappan" topic also. please change the picture.

Edit request from Rathinakumar.V, 15 June 2011

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R.Margabandhu.B.A.,B.L., Advocate, Former Ex.M.P Rajya Sabha, Former Chairman, Bar Council of Tamil Nadu and Pondy, he delivers speech in United Nations Organization during his M.P tenure, and he is first Vanniyar who deliver speech in UN.

Rathinakumar.V (talk) 10:56, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. GaneshBhakt (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Vanniyars - Are they kshatriyas or are they not? An unbiased discussion required based on in-depth reading of recent academic publications on this topic by Prof Alf Hilebeitel who has expertise on this subject of varna and kshatriya varna in particular and especially with reference to prevalence of fire origin myths of khsatriyas all over India in his work "Rethinking India's Oral and Classical Epic - Darupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits". Kindly read Chapter 13 titled " The Myth of Agnivamsa" pp 439 to pp475(Oxford University Press: Rethinking India's Oral and Classical Epics - Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits. Alf Hiltebeitel. 1999). The online link is being provided below along with an article adopting the contrary position.

Read these two resources. Judge for yourself on the depth of scholarship, the primary ethnographic information, the secondary and tertiary resources used by these two authors. Think this topic out and comment without bias. Check as to which of these articles is a modern academic document and which is a superficial commentary. Kindly do proceed with the notion that either or both the articles could be correct. Then proceed to understand and subsequently assess the information with the cited sources of information. Verify the accuracy and bias in every conclusion - sift the specious conclusions from the academically sound ones. Differentiate academic conclusions from biases and discuss these threadbare. Do record your conclusions after this thorough exercise.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1917/19170400.htm

Please put correct information in wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.105.168.2 (talk) 21:50, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

That article only says that they are OBC, not Shudra. However, I have removed kshatriya from the infobox anyway, as all claims of varna status need highly reliable sources (i.e., modern, academic documents, not just opinion or ancient religious texts). I will try to add some info about them being OBC. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 March 2012

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94.3.75.154 (talk) 19:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC) rajaliyar is also a sub caste of vanniyar, the people of this sub-caste originate in kumarachi, cuddalore district

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Please also provide exact details of the text you want to change or add. Thanks. Begoon ^talk 00:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Aggressive pruning

I would like to add a note about the dubious scholarship of P Radhakrishnan, MIDS who claims to be a sociologist but whose comments on anthropological issues lack depth and adequate research be it secondary or tertiary sources. He has done no ethnographic work on this community unlike the in-depth work by Prof Alf Hitebeitel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.202.132.43 (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I have now cut the article by over 60% from its height back in June. Everything I cut was either unsourced or the given sourced didn't meet the reliable sources guidelines. I also rearranged the article, removed inappropriate external links, and made other minor fixes. Now, I'm sure that some of the information that I removed can be verified by reliable sources. If so, please provide those sources and suggested edits; if you don't know how to format everything, that's fine, as I can help with proper formatting.

One other minor note--in the history section, there are 5 sources that don't have full information--they're either just the author's name or just the book's title. I need someone who actually knows which texts are being referred to to complete those citations. If they can't be completed, that information may also need to be removed as unsourced if there's not even the minimum necessary amount of info to verify the quality and existence of the source. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

You may find the Vanniyar caste listed as the 26th in its full name (Vannia Kula Kshatriya)(Please re-instate the term Kshatriya in vanniyars are the only kshathriyas caste in tamilnadu.

Whoever has made this above request of adding the word kshatriya appears to have made an emotional appeal. We need to think on our own. Such requests seem emotional. We need academically accurate information and not emotional appeals. If the conclusion is right. We need not shirk. If it is inaccurate we should not hesitate to reject it. Read the link given below for some very critical information on this topic. Analyze it and conclude for your self. It has a heavy dose of Anthropology as it is from an Anthropologist specializing on varna and religion in India.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false

I am an anthropologist and am referring another source - "The People of India" series by Anthropological Survey of India. Please refer the link below and then read up the entire article.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xBQwAQAAIAAJ&q=vanniyakula+kshatriya&dq=vanniyakula+kshatriya&source=bl&ots=PlhcAemsj3&sig=KZvL6KDNSQHIWl_is1-KIWbFF-0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dIkUUPXaDIiyrAfQzIHoCg&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCA

If you take a look at the MBC list, there are so many castes which are not untouchable castes in the list. For eg, 1.Ambalakarar, 9.Isaivellalar, 13.Kongu Chettiar 33.Sozhia Chetty 35.Thottia Naicker so on.

Similarly, if you take a look at the Denotified Community (DNCs) list: http://www.tn.gov.in/departments/denotifiedlist.htm

You can see so many martial communities of tamil nadu listed here. The reason they were included in the DNC list is a separate article in itself! Many of them were historically warriors and rulers and later neglected and subjugated due to numerous regime changes, just like the vanniyars!

I can give you tons of proofs for the above statement but just for want of time, I am holding back. Just do a simple 'google book' search on vanniyars or pallis and you will come across several books on the subject by esteemed authors.

Please begin by reading "Castes and Tribes of South India" by Edgar Thurston and K. Rangachari, the most authoritative book on the subject. Link:

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Erin3nkU3ZUC&pg=PA13&dq=palli+%2B+edgar+thurston&hl=en&ei=PsGVTszBAYTYrQf_juXBBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

It is to be noted that Mr.Thurston was a british officer on duty and his views were neutral and without any caste bias.

There are also so many archaeology publications published by the Government itself which throws light on the ancient and medieval tamil society (But you would not find online copies of them).

so my humble request to you is kindly ignore the hate mongers and help people who have knowledge but no editing skills. And next time someone talks about 'Shudra', ask them to go through the state government's SC list (link give below):

http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm

Thanks for your time and patient hearing! Peace Kalingarayar (talk) 16:47, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I've rewritten the "current status" section to add this info from the Tamil Nadu list. Currently, the article does not call them Sudra or Shudra anywhere, so I think we're fine on that account. If you have other sources, we can add them, although we have to be sure that they meet or reliable sources guidelines. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think Thurston qualifies; in fact, there is a growing feeling among many people editing in this area that, whenever possible, we want to stop using the British colonial sources. The truth is that most of them aren't even slightly neutral--they rarely investigated themselves, and instead just repeated what the group they favored told them. This is not a 100% consensus, but something that has been brewing on many different caste articles. We do still use some of the British colonial works, but when we do, are trying to be sure that we are clear that it's just one person's opinion, and it's dated. It is much much better for us to use modern scholarship, especially anthropological/scientific/textual analysis--i.e., not just some person writing on a website or weak journal that Class X was the best and everyone respected what wonderful warriors the were. Let me know if there are other things that you think need to be changed. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:34, 19 October 2011 (UTC). You are right 'Qwyrxian', we need to be academically right. Please read the link below. Absolutely academic and authentic. It is undoubtedly an in-depth anthropological and ethnographic work.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false Kindly analyze it in-depth and take time to understand.

The list of castes in tamilnadu is published by Government. According to this State Government Published reference. Vanniyar is short form for vanniya kula kshatriya" There is painted murals in Tamilnady Government Archeology Department showning Vanniyar puranam. There are Dance dramas in rural Tamilnadu called "vanni puranam" enacting the origin of Vanniyars.

Some Nonbeleivers and people born of the dancing class hate Vanniyars. When British rule took over India the Vanniyar Landlords were called Denotified community/OBC in revenge for their fight against subjugation. Then they were called Backward Class by a Nadar /vaisya chief minister. Then they were called Backward class By a DG chief minister Then they went down economically fought and asked for Most Backward status because of backbone less chief ministers not fighting for Cauvery waters to feed their lands. This does annul the fact that they are warriors infact these are all proof why they were once Rulers that face persecution by the change in the ruling party and their guilt and inferiority complex about their caste activities.

Why does a Japanese man that has no business /visit to India edit vanniyar history? ask him to take his Sony camera and take picture at Sri Vaitheeswaran Koil,in Tamilnadu if he is noble. Never mind if he support Geisha like rulers. Vanniyars are the birth opposite Geisha clan for this Japanese editor.

There was one Chief minister Half Kerala Brahman and Half Nair (naga kula kshatriya) who happened to be BRahmakshatriya who recognised Vannniyars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.80.213 (talk) 19:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Develop this article

Hi to all Vanniyar. Please develop your article. Vanniyars are mostly agriculturist and they are the descendents of pallava rulers.

Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas are also called Vahini Kula Kshatriyas or Agnikula Kshatriyas. The Fire origin myth which is characteristic of all agnivanshis or agnikulas of India, as per Alf Hiltebeitel, who has studied myths and religion among kshatriyas of various parts of India among others, has traced the roots of the Fire Origin Myth of agnivanshis in other parts of India to those of the Vanniyars. The Agnivanshis of other parts of India seem to have borrowed the core myth from Vanniyars and appear to have fashioned their Fire origin myth after the Fire origin myths of the Vanniyars. Alf Hiltebetels has concluded thus after extensive research on the Agnivanshis or Agnikulas. The book is titled Rethinking India's oral and classical epics: Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits and the relevant chapter is titled "Fire Origin myth". Alf Hiltebeitel is a Professor of anthroplogy at George Washington University and specialises in Religion with extensive work on India Religion. The above book is published by Chicago University Press. He has done extensive work on Mahabharatha and other aspects of Indian Religion and Varna.

This forum will accept the above if the right references are provided, please. Kindly mention the source of the above information please - be it historical or anthropological. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.202.135.129 (talk) 00:05, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 August 2012

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It appears that the people who have the exclusive rights to edit this article do not seem interested in reading up Anthropological sources cited. Are they serious about editing an article of this nature or are they exhibiting 'dog in the manger' attitude.

Antropological survey of India has documented this community in people of India Series on various states of India

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xBQwAQAAIAAJ&q=vanniyakula+kshatriya&dq=vanniyakula+kshatriya&source=bl&ots=PlhcAemsj3&sig=KZvL6KDNSQHIWl_is1-KIWbFF-0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dIkUUPXaDIiyrAfQzIHoCg&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCA

Another anthropological source is Prof. Alf Hiltebeitels Book

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false

If editors are serious they need to read up these references and discus them and not simply shirk from doing so.

14.99.177.89 (talk) 08:53, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Please state changes in an X to Y format. FloBo A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 09:20, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 October 2012

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i want to edit

permit me Terrorskcud (talk) 02:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not how edit requests work. If there is something specific you want to change, explain that here. If not, you'll have to wait until you are a confirmed editor (that takes 10 edits to other articles, and 4 days). Please note that either way, you'll need to provide reliable sources that support the changes you want to make. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 October 2012

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please remove the contents under the title of "Historical status" because it is added with vandalism thru wrong reference bala (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. The references in that section are both books published by university presses, which usually makes them reliable sources. What specific reason do you have that those sources do not meet WP:RS, our reliable sources guidelines? Please note that just because you disagree, or you don't like what they say is not a valid reason. Also, if you know of other sources that make different claims, please present those, as it may be possible to include more than one perspective, assuming all of them meet WP:RS. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 December 2012

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Vanniyar, also transliterated Vanniar, are a large social group in South India. They primarily live in Tamil Nadu where they speak Tamil, while in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka they speak their native Dravidian languages namely, Telugu and Kannada respectively. Contents [hide]

   1 Origin
   2 Historical references
   3 History
   4 Caste titles
   5 Demographic spread
       5.1 Important cities
   6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka
   7 Vanniyar outside India
   8 Vanniyar Charities
   9 Prominent Vanniyars
   10 See also
   11 References

1 Origin

The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

2 Historical references

The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles.

3 History

- From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions

4 Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

5 Demographic spread

Vanniyars live in an area where three South Indian states intersects. They currently predominate in northern Tamil Nadu)whereas sizable numbers are found in southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. In these latter Indian states they are in sizeable mass primarily due to migration of other sects from outside and vice versa.

In terms of population they are the most populated community in Tamil Nadu (Both as Vanniars) and Pondichery.

5.1 Important cities

Important cities are Chennai,Chengalpattu, Kancheepuram, Bangalore, Kolar, Salem, Thiruchirapalli, Thanjavur, Kumbakonam, Vellore, Cuddalore, Virudhachalam, Thiruvannamalai, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Villupuram, Tindivanam, Gingee, Nellore, Thirupathi, Jayankondam, Pondicherry,Mayiladuthurai,Vedaranyam ,Ariyalur and Nagapattinam.

6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka

   Main article: Vanniar (Sri Lanka)

Vanniar or Vannia is a title of a feudal chief in medieval Sri Lanka who ruled as a tribute payer to any number of local kingdoms. It was also recored as that of a name of a caste amongst Sri Lankan Tamils iin the Vanni District of northern Sri Lanka during the early 1900’s. It is no longer used as a name of a caste or as chiefs in Sri Lanka. There are number of origin theories for the feudal chiefs as well as the caste as coming from modern Tamil Nadu state or as an indigenous formation. (see Pandara Vannian)

7 Vanniyar outside India

Vanniyar also migrated to South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Seychelles, Mauritius and Fiji as part of the great Tamil diaspora. Variant Vanniyar titles such as Govendar, Naicker and Padayachee are used amongst their descendants.

8 Vanniyar Charities

The Vanniyars may be linked in tradition to the vanni tree (prosopis spicigera), a holy tree in Hindu tradition.Kulasekhara,one of the early travancore kings,and one of the most renowned alwars reverenced by the srivaishnava community belongs to them.Vanniyars celebrate his anniversary in Parthasarathy temple Chennai even now.The Vanniyars have the right to present the most important camphor offering of the Mylapore Kapaleeswarar Temple.The Ekambaranathar Temple at Kanchipuram built by them.Likewise the Chidambaram Nataraja Temple is founded by Swetavarman,a Pallava king. Prabhubreaker (talk) 15:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 18:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 December 2012

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Vanniyar, also transliterated Vanniar, are a large social group in South India. They primarily live in Tamil Nadu where they speak Tamil, while in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka they speak their native Dravidian languages namely, Telugu and Kannada respectively.

Contents

   1 Origin
   2 Historical references
   3 History
   4 Caste titles
   5 Demographic spread
       5.1 Important cities
   6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka
   7 Vanniyar outside India
   8 Vanniyar Charities
   9 Prominent Vanniyars

1 Origin

The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

2 Historical references

The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles.

3 History

- From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions

4 Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

5 Demographic spread

Vanniyars live in an area where three South Indian states intersects. They currently predominate in northern Tamil Nadu)whereas sizable numbers are found in southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. In these latter Indian states they are in sizeable mass primarily due to migration of other sects from outside and vice versa.

In terms of population they are the most populated community in Tamil Nadu (Both as Vanniars) and Pondichery.

5.1 Important cities

Important cities are Chennai,Chengalpattu, Kancheepuram, Bangalore, Kolar, Salem, Thiruchirapalli, Thanjavur, Kumbakonam, Vellore, Cuddalore, Virudhachalam, Thiruvannamalai, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Villupuram, Tindivanam, Gingee, Nellore, Thirupathi, Jayankondam, Pondicherry,Mayiladuthurai,Vedaranyam ,Ariyalur and Nagapattinam.

6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka

   Main article: Vanniar (Sri Lanka)

Vanniar or Vannia is a title of a feudal chief in medieval Sri Lanka who ruled as a tribute payer to any number of local kingdoms. It was also recored as that of a name of a caste amongst Sri Lankan Tamils iin the Vanni District of northern Sri Lanka during the early 1900’s. It is no longer used as a name of a caste or as chiefs in Sri Lanka. There are number of origin theories for the feudal chiefs as well as the caste as coming from modern Tamil Nadu state or as an indigenous formation. (see Pandara Vannian)

7 Vanniyar outside India

Vanniyar also migrated to South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Seychelles, Mauritius and Fiji as part of the great Tamil diaspora. Variant Vanniyar titles such as Govendar, Naicker and Padayachee are used amongst their descendants.

8 Vanniyar Charities

The Vanniyars may be linked in tradition to the vanni tree (prosopis spicigera), a holy tree in Hindu tradition.Kulasekhara,one of the early travancore kings,and one of the most renowned alwars reverenced by the srivaishnava community belongs to them.Vanniyars celebrate his anniversary in Parthasarathy temple Chennai even now.The Vanniyars have the right to present the most important camphor offering of the Mylapore Kapaleeswarar Temple.The Ekambaranathar Temple at Kanchipuram built by them.Likewise the Chidambaram Nataraja Temple is founded by Swetavarman,a Pallava king.

9 Prominent Vanniyars

   Kaduvetti Guru, Vanniar Sangam Leader, MLA Jayamkondam
   S. Ramadoss, Founder, Pattali Makkal Katchi (PMK)
   S. S. Ramasamy Padayachi, Founder of the Workers Toilers Party

Prabhubreaker (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. TBrandley 19:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 December 2012

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Vanniyars are the kshatriya caste they belongs to agnivamshis they today they are very orthodox and landlords 122.181.8.114 (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Rivertorch (talk) 19:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 February 2013

ORIGIN The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar

HISTORICAL REFERENCES The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tridexx (talk • contribs) 06:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

You need to provide reliable sources that support your preferred changes. Please note that ancient poetry/epics/religious texts are not reliable sources (or, rather, they're primary sources that we can use only when the meaning is unambiguous and only for exactly, literally, what they say). Qwyrxian (talk) 07:04, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 April 2013

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Vanniyar, also transliterated Vanniar, are a large social group in South India. They primarily live in Tamil Nadu where they speak Tamil, while in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka they speak their native Dravidian languages namely, Telugu and Kannada respectively. Contents [hide]

   1 Origin
   2 Historical references
   3 History
   4 Caste titles
   5 Demographic spread
       5.1 Important cities
   6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka
   7 Vanniyar outside India
   8 Vanniyar Charities
   9 Prominent Vanniyars
   10 See also
   11 References

[edit] Origin

The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

[edit] Historical references

The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles.

[edit] History

- From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions

[edit] Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

[edit] Demographic spread

Vanniyars live in an area where three South Indian states intersects. They currently predominate in northern Tamil Nadu)whereas sizable numbers are found in southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. In these latter Indian states they are in sizeable mass primarily due to migration of other sects from outside and vice versa.

In terms of population they are the most populated community in Tamil Nadu (Both as Vanniars) and Pondichery.

[edit] Important cities

Important cities are Chennai,Chengalpattu, Kancheepuram, Bangalore, Kolar, Salem, Thiruchirapalli, Thanjavur, Kumbakonam, Vellore, Cuddalore, Virudhachalam, Thiruvannamalai, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Villupuram, Tindivanam, Gingee, Nellore, Thirupathi, Jayankondam, Pondicherry,Mayiladuthurai,Vedaranyam ,Ariyalur and Nagapattinam.

[edit] Vanniyar in Sri Lanka

   Main article: Vanniar (Sri Lanka)

Vanniar or Vannia is a title of a feudal chief in medieval Sri Lanka who ruled as a tribute payer to any number of local kingdoms. It was also recored as that of a name of a caste amongst Sri Lankan Tamils iin the Vanni District of northern Sri Lanka during the early 1900’s. It is no longer used as a name of a caste or as chiefs in Sri Lanka. There are number of origin theories for the feudal chiefs as well as the caste as coming from modern Tamil Nadu state or as an indigenous formation. (see Pandara Vannian)

[edit] Vanniyar outside India

Vanniyar also migrated to South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Seychelles, Mauritius and Fiji as part of the great Tamil diaspora. Variant Vanniyar titles such as Govendar, Naicker and Padayachee are used amongst their descendants.

[edit] Vanniyar Charities

The Vanniyars may be linked in tradition to the vanni tree (prosopis spicigera), a holy tree in Hindu tradition.Kulasekhara,one of the early travancore kings,and one of the most renowned alwars reverenced by the srivaishnava community belongs to them.Vanniyars celebrate his anniversary in Parthasarathy temple Chennai even now.The Vanniyars have the right to present the most important camphor offering of the Mylapore Kapaleeswarar Temple.The Ekambaranathar Temple at Kanchipuram built by them.Likewise the Chidambaram Nataraja Temple is founded by Swetavarman,a Pallava king.

Itvinoth10 (talk) 04:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. You appear to have copied and pasted a large number of elements from somewhere (a sandbox?), and I really can't tell what changes you're asking for. Is this supposed to replace or supplement the current content? Whatever the case may be, keep in mind that it needs to be reliably sourced. Rivertorch (talk) 04:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 April 2013 - Information Incomplete

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Origin: The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar. Pelanchelian (talk) 08:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

You will need to provide reliable sources to verify this information before it can be added to the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 April 2013

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There are lots of data s about the vanniyar missing.

Kindly let me edit this page kathir (talk) 14:07, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but editing this page is currently restricted due to disruption and the addition of unsourced/unverifiable information. Please make a request on this talk page if you would something to be added. Make you sure you give a reliable source. Pol430 talk to me 14:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 April 2013

ORIGIN "The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan."

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

HISTORY

      - From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tridexx (talk • contribs) 05:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. If you resubmit this request with sources, please take some time to correct the many errors of capitalization, punctuation, spacing, and spelling. You also should indicate whether it is intended to supplement or replace content currently in the article. Rivertorch (talk) 05:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)