Dyskusja wikipedysty:Piom/BenedictXVI
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I have vectorized Benedict XVI coat of arms (see Commons)
-PioM
Are you sure that they are the real coat of arms? I have severe doubts. Apart from anything else papal coat of arms for over a millennium use the en:Papal tiara on them, even if the pope was not crowned. The crown is usually instantly recognisable as one of the real tiaras. At the spot where the tiara would be this has something that looks unlike any tiara in existence. It looks much more like a mitre. The tiara, along with the keys, remain the symbols of the papacy and I very much doubt if Ben would jetison a thousand year old symbol, certainly not for a mitre that is the symbol of any bishop, in any church with bishops. Nor do I imagine he would have on his shield a figure that looks like someone from the 1960s and 1970s en:BBC Black and White Minstrels Show. And I can't imagine for one moment Ben allowing his pallum to hang at the bottom of his coat of arms like a penis. Unless I see credible evidence my gut feeling is that this is a joke someone put out claiming to be the new coat of arms. FearÉIREANN 00:02, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This coat of arms was used on the programs that were passed out at the instalation ceremony, and I can provide you with a German church website that is currently using these arms, along with a signature of the arms paper from the Holy Father. Remember, the Vatican is a bit slow on things, since it took them a while to even post a decent picture of the Holy Father. Zscout370 (talk) 00:09, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If thats the coat of arms, its a strange one for a tradional pope to use. Why drop the tiara? Rangeley 00:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The Pope refused to wear/given one for his installment. I would not be surprised if he asked for the tiara to not be included in the arms. Zscout370 (talk) 00:22, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That is exceptionally unlikely. He did not refuse. He was told simply that a tiara could not be used because they could not plan from scratch a new coronation in 4 days. And there was no time to design a new style of coronation. So he was stuck with an inauguration. JPI and JPII both included a tiara. I very much doubt if he would go against his precedessor. The tiara may not be worn, but it is one of two still used 3 symbols of the papacy - tiara, keys and flag. I've been doing some checking around. Only one source announces a 'new' coat of arms, an Associated Press story. AP are usually (though not always) right. But something is fishy. The story was filed in Bavaria. If and when a new coat of arms are announced, it will come from the Vatican, not Bavaria. It sounds like someone filed a story about how a papal coat of arms might look using Bavarian symbols, and it was issued as a 'this is the coat of arms' story by mistake. (That sort of cock-up often happens.) Wait and see what the Vatican says. A story filed in Bavaria, involving a highly unlikely type of coat of arms, is highly dodgy IMHO. If he had issued them, they would now be on the papal website. In fact they would be there first. And they are not. FearÉIREANN 00:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
So didnt John Paul I, and John Paul II (refuse to be crowned). But if you check their coat of arms, they still have the tiara. Rangeley 00:24, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- As mentioned in the archives, the person who did both of their arms is now dead. New artist+new pope=anything can happen my friends. Zscout370 (talk) 00:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The same could be said for any of the artists and popes, as the coat of arms has always included keys and the tiara, regardless of the artist. I have looked into this, and according to the article, what you presented there is a basic sketch, not the final one. The only parts described in your article are the ones dealing with the shield itself, not the outside elements. Rangeley 00:33, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I like the papal coat of arms --- sans tiara (they are so hard to accesorize). To my knowledge, this is the first time the pallium (in the style of the sub-Apostolic fathers, with the three pins) is included. Aloysius Patacsil 01:32, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
- Too many inconsistencies.
- No tiara.
- Phallic symbol in a papal coat of arms.
- A representation that would be criticised as rascist.
- A story announced by only one news agency. (Where is Reuters? The BBC? Why isn't it on the Irish Times website?)
- A story from Bavaria, not the Vatican.
- No image on the Vatican website, where it surely have been put first.
Smells very very fishy FearÉIREANN 00:36, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
So, I see you have problems, but I have head at Polish Section of Vatican Radio introduction about this Coat of Arms and at Polish Catholic Information Agensy is presented project but without colour, see KAI(Catholic Agency of Information), I will translate you that article -PioM "As the first pope in history Benedict XVI resign to place in coat of arms Thiara - simbol of secular power, he would rather use bishops "mitre". Section of coat of arms are similar to his coat of arms from archibishops/cardinals times.
The coat of arms is stresing that pope resign from secular power, he want to stres that he is a bishop of Rome. You see on mitre three lines that are similar to three level crones.
Under the field there is pallium (with three red crosses) that he get at the begining of his pontify, it says that pope is shepherd (see popes homily). It was first time when pope resign to be croning was 1978 (John Paul I), but it is ascient simbol.
At field are elements from cardinal Ratzingers coat of armsas a archibishop of Munich and Freising - "Croned Negro of Freising", and bear of St. Korbinian, pathron of Munich and Freising, the shell is a simbol of pilgrim." - This is translation from Polish Catholic Information Agencys (KAI) text -PioM
If Benedict is using this coat of arms, it will count as a monumental blunder worthy of the Guinness Book of Records for Stupidest way to start a pontificate. People will see the 'Crowned negro of Freising' as rascist and insulting to the Church in Africa. en:Traditionalist Catholics will go ballistic over the dropping of the tiara (they are always demanding it be worn again), while gay groups will have a field day at a papal coat of arms that looks like it has a dangling penis at the bottom. If I was his press advisor I'd advise him to chuck it in the nearest bin. He has enough negatives around him without making himself look like a rascist laughing stock. I really find it hard to credit that a pope with his history would use images guaranteed to infuriate two important groups in the Church (Africa and conservatives), not to mention a dangling penis that will would become the butt of jokes from comedians the world over. It would be mindbogglingly stupid in the extreme. But the central question is, if he has a definite new coat of arms,
- why isn't it on the website of the Vatican?
- why haven't major news agencies picked up on it?
- Why has the only news agency to use it (AP) sourced the story from Bavaria and not from the Vatican, where the announcement, if it had been made, would have come from? There are too many serious question marks around to justify its inclusion. Better wait for the Vatican, and not just AP in Bavaria or a Catholic website in Poland, to announce it. FearÉIREANN 01:53, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Vatican Radio website confirms the CoA: http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/index.asp The colors might change, though. Ausir 02:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Fear ÉIREANN, you're being an idiot. Why would a "Negro" wearing a crown be seen as racist? For the record, it's a "Moor's head", goes back to the 14th century and is interpreted as either depicting one of the Magi or one of a number of saints, see . And "dangling penis"?? Only if you really, REALLY want to see it, and again: why would gay groups be offended? You may be right about the traditionalists, but Benedict obviously either does not care or does not think it will be a problem, and he should know. -- Brazzy 08:30, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think we're looking at a depiction of the actucal coat of arms by a graphic designer who chose to make the triregnum look like a mitre and vice versa. It's an artistic interpretation that we're debating about. What we might have to do is wait for a version that depicts the triregnum to look like a triregnum. --Gerald Farinas 01:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
AP Article: The article (in English) can be found at http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050425/ap_on_re_eu/pope_coat_of_arms_1. Zscout370 (talk) 01:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That story proves that the pope has not released a coat of arms. It refers to a claim by a diocese in Germany. I suspect the phones to the diocese were hopping from the Vatican when it came out telling them to shut up. This is clearly a working draft, nothing more. Gerald is right. In the final draft the mitre will no doubt be replaced by the tiara. And I suspect the Vatican will strongly urge the pope to kill off the 'crowned negro' and the phallic bit at the bottom. Indeed that may be the delay. The diocese probably heard he was thinking along those lines, let it slip to the media. But in the Vatican a rethink is going on, with the words "You can't, Holy Father" echoing around the papal apartments. They are probably working on a new draft to add in the tiara, replace the 'crowned negro' (God I hate that term. Is that image really called that???) and reposition the pallum in a less phallic-looking location. FearÉIREANN 02:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As I have found out, the black man in crown is actually en:Prester John. Otto von Freising, a 12th century bishop, included him in his CoA. Please enlighten me, how is an image of a black king racist in any way? Ausir 02:07, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The image as shown when originally added in quite large here showed a black man with large red lips and staring eyes. That is a classic rascist stereotype image used for black people in Europe right until the 1970s and in the US until the 1960s. It is not in any way an accurate image of someone of African origin, but looks like something you used to get in the Black and White Minstrel Show on BBC, and which today is seen as so rascist and clichéd that the BBC will not even release clips of the show to be shown in programmes. The only clips available (and which do occasionally appear) are clips they released but forgot to demand the return of and apparently conceded copyright of. A recent BBC programme that featured a clip had to get it from an ITV company that had one of these clips, because the BBC will never let it be shown as they are seen as so rascist and demeaning of black people. If Ben wants to use Prester John, he'd better get a less clichéd, less rascist version that a black man with big lips and bulging eyes. FearÉIREANN 02:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
So go to Vatican site, there are materials form Radio Vatican (Today (26.04.2005) at 16.15 I have heard about this coat of arms FROM Polish Section of Radio Vatican). This Polish Catholic Agency of Information is a basic oficial agency of information of Catholic Church in Poland. I don't know the colour scheme (I have taken that sheme from cardinals coat of arms), but if it change (color scheme) I will change it simply because I have drawn it in InkScape (http://www.inkscape.org) in vector graphic (SVG file format). -PioM
Vatican Radio website confirms the CoA: http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/index.asp The colors might change, though. Ausir 02:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No, it should be also somewhere at Vatican Services-PioM
I'm pretty sure that it's stuck in canon law of the Church that the coat of arms for a pope has to have the papal tiara, just like a cardinal has to include a red gallero with a certain number of tassels, a bishop a green galero, and a preist a black one. Since that canon law is the official collection of laws and regulations governing the church, I'd be surprised if this turned out to be the official CoA. Bratschetalk random 12:17, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
- This one is in no way official. It is even more speculative than the Radio Vatican one. Ausir 15:45, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Slightly more convincing but still not enough. Vatican Radio got John Paul II's coat of arms wrong initially, announced three premature ends to the October 1978 conclave, said categorically when the current one ended that it hadn't and that the smoke was black, etc. It is famous for jumping the gun, or missing it entirely. When the Vatican itself formally announces it then we can believe it.
But, thinking as a journalist, if Ben goes with this design, I'm going to have so much fun slagging him off. I can see just how my colleagues will react. It will be (1) the phallic symbol, (2) the rascist image, (3) the missing tiara, and (4) what sort of an ejjit is he to use such images on his coat of arms. That is what I find so surprising, if it is true. Anyone who does journalism would take one look at the coat of arms, utter a Homer Simpsonesque 'd'oh' and roll their eyes to heaven. Any PR man or woman with the slightest grasp would see this image as a PR disaster. Is the Vatican Press Office and the new pope really that stupid? (But then looking at their handling of the sex abuse cases, maybe they are.) FearÉIREANN 02:46, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- As for the "racist" image, he used the same image in his cardinal Coat of Arms, and I didn't see anyone protesting it. Even if it can be considered racist, it is the standard portrayal of black people in heraldics, AFAIK... As for the missing tiara, I don't see how not including the tiara in the CoA is more radical than refusing to wear the tiara, as Paul VI did. And anyway, the image can be added to the article as being the CoA according to (mention sources here), and later the real one can be added if this one turns out to be false. Ausir 03:09, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That sounds good; I have said that colour scheme is imagined by me, it can be different, I have this coat of arms in vector graphic, so I can change colours anytime.-PioM
Here is the Vatican Radio notice in Italian: http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/it1/Articolo.asp?id=35016. The Vatican Radio is affiliated with the Holy See/Vatican City State. Zscout370 (talk) 02:41, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's your problem FearÉIREANN that you have so aberrant and rascistic suggestion/projections, sorry -PioM
- Oh, and I see you are Apple user ;), that talks to much :D , all is clear :) (that's joke, of course :) )-PioM
FearÉIREANN , I understand your doubts about how this isn't the final coat of arms for Benedict XVI, but as it is found in the programs from his installation ceremony, and revealed not on a random Polish Catholic website, but by his home Archdiocese of Munich and Freising, which shows a copy signed by Benedict himself, I can't see how you can regard this as a joke. Worst case scenario, it's a working Papal coat of arms (and should probably be designated as such for the time being until the Vatican formally puts it on their site), but otherwise it's pretty legit as far as I can see. If he does go with this design, I think it's a nice change of pace to make the Papal tiara less crown-like and more mitre-like (again, the shift of perception from Pope as monarch to Pope as humble servant has been ongoing since JPI), and including the pallium as another symbol of the papacy. Regarding the Moor's bust on the site, it is the historical symbol of Freising, and can be found on the town's, as well as the archdiocese's coat of arms. I won't even touch the subliminal penis reference. Maybe if the pallium was redesigned to be blunted or fringed... moded 08:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I finally found the image of the coat of arms hanging over the balcony on April 19, 2005.
Could this be the real deal or JUST the coat of arms to signal the election of a new Pope?
- This one is the CoA of John Paul II. Ausir 15:44, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yes they had only this, so they hanged it, but how "official" is this site coat of arms?, I will now change colour scheme (and do tiare if it will be needed)-PioM
- It says, roughly:
- It has been presented, on the day of the solemn beginning of His ministry of the universal Shepherd of the Church, as a shield divided [i.e. in the manner shown with those curved lines], but without colors or enamels.
- The coat of arms was created by Fabio Ceresa, Hans von Heijningen, Giovanni Sicari. It was designed by Fabio Ceresa.
- Description:
- In the first, of Monaco, which is of gold, the head of the black Moor, crowned and [ornated] in red; In the second, of Frisinga, which is of gold, the bear of St. Corbiniano in black, passante, armoured, and [?] in red, carrying a load of the same [i.e., also in red?] crossed by the cross of St Andrew in silver; In the third, blue with a silver shell.
- Sorry it's not precise, I'm not too hot on Italian heraldic terminology... I'm not entirely sure about what the colors refer to (on a gold field? I'm not sure), so don't make pictures based on this. — Asbestos | Talk 17:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Not sure if non subscribers (to Catholic World News) will be able to read it, but there's an explanation of the Coat of Arms here . Ann Heneghan 20:07, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Articles are now trickling in that the Vatican has unveiled the coat of arms:
- Catholic News Service: includes information about replacement of tiara with mitre and pallium; also includes info on color scheme. Red background for shell, brown-faced Moor, brown bear
- The Times of London -moded 23:44, 27 Apr 2005
- not very clear from the article and very rough sketch in the 4/28 edition of L'Osservatore Romano (proper only on 28.04.2005) (was online for a day, but has since been taken offline. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say the background for the bear and the Moor are the same. My personal taste is that the bear should be the same color as the Moor and be outlined in black. Hopefully, now that this image has been released by the Vatican's official newspaper, and now that a Vatican official has gone on record (with the Catholic News Service) about the elements of the crest, this can lay to rest any questions about the legitimacy of this image. -moded 15:08 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- But what about pack, what colour should be there and the outline of the pack cross?-PioM talk 14:34, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone should detail the elements of the coat of arms in the main article. Extra information from the Catholic News Service: The papal crown has been given the boot once again, this time no longer appearing as part of the new pope's coat of arms. Pope Benedict XVI has dispensed with the image of the three-tiered tiara that traditionally appeared at the top of each pope's coat of arms and replaced it with the pointed miter. The pope also has added the pallium, the woolen stole symbolizing a bishop's authority, to the elements surrounding the shield. The details of the new papal blazon were published in the April 28 edition of the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano. A copy was released April 27 to journalists. "Benedict XVI has chosen a coat of arms that is rich in symbolism and meaning, so as to put his personality and his papacy in the hands of history," said Italian Archbishop Andrea Cordero Lanza di Montezemolo, an expert on heraldry and creator of Benedict XVI's new insignia. "For at least the past eight centuries, popes have had their own personal coats of arms in addition to the symbols of the Apostolic See," the archbishop said in the Vatican newspaper. --Gerald Farinas 15:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Avvenire online has reported that the Sala Stampa (Vatican press Office) has released the final colour version of the Pope's arms:
Wikipedia continues to show an artists rendition. The artist has done an admirable job, especially in the lines of the arms, but he needs to change the shape of the pallium and make its crosses red. Also, the "mitre-tiara" should have tips at the end of the gold bands. See:
http://www.avvenireonline.it/NR/exeres/71AA26FB-EA3B-4CA6-B44A-1565D2AC9CD7.htm
Well done ! Your version is more faithful to the original sketch, released by the Diocese of Freising-Munich, than the one on the Vatican website.
I have changed coat of arms colour scheme on that from Vatican Site. I don't realy know if you realy wish me to draw the Etiopian king's face looking that, and bear looking like a dog.. like pittbull: , they realy don't have any good graphics (the first one from ware much better in shape), and those pink parts...? So could be this coat of arms that is now on Wiki Commons, or....? -PioM talk
Leave your bear and blackamoor as are. While being faithful to the "official version" yours is, by far, the best rendition, especially of the bear.
Here is a picture of the flag the Swiss Guard will use during B16's papacy. Note at the top and left that the Papal arms appear. Note that the papal arms on this this flag is different from the arms that were presented to us from the Vatican wesbite. However, this is intentional, since the arms on the Swiss Guards flag is always different from the one the pope uses on documents, etc. Zscout370 (talk) 13:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
The crown on the Moor is not the same as the one on the Vatican site. Will you be updating it? bjerabek 6 May 2005
I'm reading a roll of arms of the college of cardinals, and it lists Benedict's arms, minus the arms of the see of Munich and Friesing, as Per fess wavy azure and argent, an escallop counterchanged. Basically, a blue and white background with a seashell alternating color. This is obviously not how they're rendered on the Vatican website, since it's a gold seashell on a red background. Does anyone know why it was changed to Gules, an escallop or? Pmadrid 19:35, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
So, I should leave Moor and bear, but what about crown, should I simplify it, like on Vatican Site or it should stay as it was in orginal first release? Those colours are also not nice, gold is like dirty gold, silver like an iron, and red like pink...
For one week I'm compiling new Qt/KDE, and asociated programs, so it will not be so easy to do much.-PioM talk 20:31, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the old version was better. While not identical to the Vatican one, coat of arms doesn't have to be identical, as long as it matches the official blazon, which your version did. Ausir 20:56, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
So may be we should vote: 1)only change colours to warmer; 2)should stay as is; 3) change crown; 3)do as it is on Vatican page (moor, bear, colours);? Many says also about wrong rendering by Vaticans (that shell's background should be blue)...
Oh, and may be this subject should have separate site for discussion, it is the longest?-PioM talk 21:11, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Guys, CHANGE BACK the color to gold, red and silver. The colors appear dark on the Vatican website because that's just the way they site shows it....If you check John Paul II's page, you will see that his coat of arms is also darkened, when in truth it actually isnt that dark. Outside of the Vatican website, I guess the colors ARE actually gold, silver and red and aren't darkened. Also, change the shape of the tassle by the keys and the crown on the Moor's head....it is now official because its on the Vatican website.
- I agree, change back to the lighter colors, since we are getting more official photos from the Vatican. I would also include the flag the Swiss Guard carries for B16's Papacy on the main article space. I have no word on his personal flag, but I am just hoping and praying that I get to make a flag for the Holy Father. Zscout370 (talk) 00:33, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Two days, I have problems with my machine that compiles KDE and other programs.... hmmmmm, OK, done. --PioM talk
WOW that is perfect! GREAT JOB! However, the right and left crosses need to be a little closer to the center. The pallium is not a curve but has a straight edge on the center. With these things fixed it is completely perfect!
Thank you for your help. This coat of arms is our common ( ;-) ) work. Thanks for your patience, advices, critical look and time spend at Wiki :). I also would like to thanks everyone from Polish Wiki, they help me at the begining. They have, as first, announced me where to find the image in the Internet.-PioM talk 12:04, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
PioM: wonderful job in your design. Thank you for bearing with the guesswork and changes we've all thrown at you. On a sidenote, the coat of arms made its "debut" on Pope Benedict XVI's tapestry this morning at his weekly Sunday blessing. Image can be found here. The colors were the vibrant reds and golds PioM used all along! en:Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI#Coat_of_Arms
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