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This article contains a translation of Luwian language from de.wikipedia. |
I have made certain changes to material added by user 192.76.7.207, which stated the opinions of one scholar (Ilya Yakubovich) as if they were accepted fact. Yakubovich 2010 is an important contribution to the field of Luwian and Hittite studies, and the views expressed in it certainly deserve mention in a Wikipedia article on Luwian language. However, as many of his claims directly contradict current scholarly opinion regarding the presence of Luwian speakers in western Anatolia, as well as the location of the land Luwiya (see e.g. Starke 1997; Hawkins 1998; Melchert 2003; Singer 2005; Hawkins 2009), they have no place being presented as reflecting a general consensus in contemporary scholarship (for example, Yakubovich 2010 has not even been properly reviewed in any academic journals yet). Should a consensus emerge in the scholarly community regarding Yakubovich’s views, that should certainly be reflected in the main body of the article, but until then the material in Yakubovich 2010 should be clearly presented as representing a minority opinion. If user 192.76.7.207 would care to create an account, rather than edit from an IP address, it might make clarifying these issues easier.User:Karabel--Karabel 08:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
why does the article say that Luvian was spoken in Arzawa, which was in the far west, when the map shows the Luvian area as in the east?Bbpowell 22:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC){
Where is the evidence that Hittite and Luwian "moved" south to the Middle East and influenced Semitic tongues? Is this some sort of a confusion with Phillistines(Greeks) ?
This is the highly disputed part of the article cut and pasted. Before a reference can be presented who these academic specialists are this hypothesis does not belong in the main article. It is certainly not the scholar Melchert in Anatolian languages nor his colleagues Meid, Neu Otten or Puhvel. The text:
Luwian (and Hittite) groups are now believed by most academic specialists to have moved south into Amurru, Aram Naharaim, Canaan and the Hejaz (modern Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia) after ca. the 14th century BC, and to have had an influence on the various West Semitic languages that its speakers came into contact with (Amorite dialects and especially Hebrew). --JFK 23:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the Luwian-speaking movement from Lycia followed the South Anatolian coastline apparently after the Hittites, which is associated with the Sea Peoples activity, and they did get as far as Syria, but I never heard of them getting to Saudi Arabia...! Pulling out that OR was a good call... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 01:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Boustrephedon writing does not apply to Cuneiform Luwian, and so the discussion on it shouldn't go on in this article. I've moved that discussion (and the paragraph which sparked it) over to Hieroglyphic Luwian. Enjoy! - Zimriel 21:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Propose splitting Luwian land and people from the language article. Categorystuff (talk) 16:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Consideration should also be given to relevance and appropriate placement (inclusion/exclusion) of material in the article Syro-Hittite states, which deals with the Neo-Hittite period (post-1180 RCE and which links to the current article This may help to resolve some of the somewhat contentious points raised in the discussion above. Geoff Powers (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I am now (1.18.2010) editing this article in the light of my newly appeared monograph "Sociolinguistics of the Luvian language" (Brill 2010), which is based upon my University of Chicago dissertation. I am trying to be careful to the previous material, rephrasing only those passages that appear to be superseded by the current state of research. If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me at sogdiana@uchicago.edu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.149.194.74 (talk) 04:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I wrote this mostly from the books of Bilge Umar...
At the beginning Apollo(Apollon), Artemis, Aphrodite, Hephaistos, etc. were NOT Greek gods and goddesses... because we know Ancient Greek language and the name of these gods are not Greek names! For example, the name "Artemis" does not mean anything in Greek language! They were Anatolian gods/goddesses that became Greek gods after 1200 BC. And Western Anatolia were Luwian lands before 1200 BC. Today we know that. (but in 1800s no one knew anything about the Luwians!)
now Some can say: "Well, but the Ancient Greeks didn't write anything about the Luwians. So how can we know that they were Luwian gods?" I say: Ancient Greeks (and the Romans) also didn't write anything about the Hittites! The Greeks didn't write anything about the Luwians because the Luwians were their enemies! After Anatolian people began to speak Greek, they forgot their own Luwian language! Their old gods(like Apollon, etc.)became Greek gods!
1)Artemis: Arta/Arda /Arte = "river" (in Luwian Language) , mis ="goddess"
see Arda (Maritsa) & Arda (Italy)
2)Apollon: Ap /Ab /Aba /Apa / Pa ="water" , ula ="small wood" , wana = "place", "temple of"(in Luwian)
3)Aphrodite: Ap /Ab /Aba /Apa ="water", Abra = "river" , uwa ="place", "temple", "having to do with it", Dite = "Goddess" (in Luwian)
4)Ada /Da = "mother", "mother goddess" (in Luwian)
Demeter: <Da-meter ("meter" also means "mother" in Greek)
Athena: <Athana (in Doric) < Adana <Ada-na -na ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)
Danae: <Da-na (similar name like Athena!) Danae was not a goddess. She was the mother of Perseus.
5)Themis: Themis means "law of nature" in Greek but it can be like that:
<The(a)-mis Thea ="goddes" (in Greek) , mis ="goddess" (in Luwian)
6)Leto: <Lada-uwa (She was the mother of Artemis and Apollon) /Lada ="woman","goddess" ,uwa ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)
7) Asta /Astra /Ista /Istra = "stream", "river" (in Luwian)
Danube = Istros (in Greek)
Hestia: <Asta!
Hephaestus(in Latin) < Hephaistos : <Apa-ista, Apa ="water" (in Luwian)
8)Maia: Maia was the mother of Hermes. < Ma-ia /Ma = "mother", ia ="earth" (in Luwian)
HEROES:
Paris (mythology)(Alexandros): < "Par-Ida" /Par = "pastor", "shepherd" , Ida = Mount Ida = "forest"
Paris Πάρῐς (nominative) , Paridos Πάρῐδος (genitive), Paridi Πάρῐδῐ (dative), Parida Πάρῐδᾰ (accusative)
Hector = Hektor: means "brother-in-law" (of Helen)
Hecuba = Hekabe: means "mother-in-law" (of Helen) , abe ="mother?"
Helen = Helene /Helena: "Strait" (this is "Dardanelles") <Ela-na Ela/Ila ="strait" ,-na = "having to do with" Ela-na = "the woman of the strait"
Ilium = Ilion (=Troy) <Il(a)-ion -ion = "place" (in Greek)
also Hellespont < Hellespontos that means: "Sea of Helle (mythology)" In fact, the name of this Helle came from "Ela" = "strait"
Helenos = Helenus: "Strait" (the male form of the same name!) <Ela-na
Priamus = Priamos: < Pria-uma = "the man in the castle" /Pria ="castle" uma ="human" ~ homo (in Latin/ the same root)
Cassandra = Kassandra: <Kas-Andra /kas = "temple" , andra = "priestess", "woman", "nun"
Pegasus = Pegasos : < Pega -Asu /Pege (in Greek) ="fount","source" < Pega ="fount" (in Luwian) <Pa-ka , pa ="water", ka ="place", asu = "horse" (in Luwian)
Leda (mythology): <Lada ="woman" (similar name like Leto <Lada-uwa! See above) Böri (talk) 13:22, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Aeneas = Aineias(in Greek) < Ai(a)-(wa)na / Ai = "Earth Goddess" (Aphrodite / Venus), -na = "place" Böri (talk) 11:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
"Remarks on the proposed etymologies"
The proposed etymologies in Luwian are very uncertain.
“da” may mean water (Da-nu) or earth in the Doric dialect. Demeter is Ge (Gaia).
jest 12:08, 20 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jestmoon (talk • contribs)
The OP in 2010 above was engaging in what we call WP:OR. The response should be simply to point them to that page and the requirement that all such etymological information or hypothesizing must be WP:CITE-able. If it appears on a talk-page like this, it violates WP:FORUM and can even be rmoved on that basis. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Hades, Ares, Ouranos, Hera Böri (talk) 13:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
1)Adranon > Adrano Adra = name of a god, see Adranus
2)Arda River: Arda (Italy) It is a right tributary of the Po River. arda = "river"(in Luwian) see also Arda (Maritsa) & Arte- part of Artemis ...
Tartaros < Darda-(u)ra /ura= "big", "great"(in Luwian) , arda part of Darda = "river"(in Luwian), Da = Goddess
3)Ardea (RM) arda = "river"(in Luwian)
4)Apulia > Puglia(in Italian) ap = "water"
5)Po (river)= Padus(Latin) /pa = "water", pada = "(having) water" (In fact, ap, ab, apa, aba, pa, ba; all of theam = "water")
6)Padua = Padova(Italian) < Pad(a)-uwa /pada = "water", uwa = "place" Patavium(in Latin)
7)Italy < Italia /Ida = "forest", -la= "little"(diminutive) see also Ithaca < Ithakē(in Greek) & Mount Ida
8)Tiber River= Tiberis(in Latin) = Tevere(in Italian) /ibra = "river" (in Luwian)
9)Anatolian God Attis, Atys (king), king of Alba Longa & Atys son of Croesus have the same name!
10)Tarhun= Tarchon, see also Tarquinius & Tarquinii
11)Aeneas < Aineias < Ai(a)-(wa)na Aia = "Earth Goddess"(Aphrodite / Venus), wana, -na = "place"
12)Mutina > Modena /mut = "valley"(in Luwian), -ina = "place" see also Mut in Mersin Province of Turkey: http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosya:Mersin_location_districts.svg
13)Akragas > Agrigentum > Agrigento /akra = "mountain", "hill"(in Luwian)
14)Arno < Arnus arna = "river"(in Luwian)
15) Capua = Kapa-uwa
16) Catania < Catana(in Latin) <Katanē(in Greek)
17) Cumae < Kymai There are also Kymai in Turkey & Kymai in Greece...
18) Eneti > Adriatic Veneti
19) Elba < Ilva(in Latin) Il(a)-uwa Ila = "strait", uwa = "place"
20) Ischia <Ska? ska = "island"(in Luwian)
21) Sicily < Sikelia(in Greek) ska= "island"(in Luwian) also see Sicani & Sicels
22)Scylla <ska = "island"
23) Ivrea = Eporedia(in Latin) from Ibra = "river"(in Luwian) ?
24) Labrys < labar = "axe" see also Labraunda
25) Mantova(in Italian) = Mantua
26) Paistos > Paestum = Poseidonia (another name) /pa = "water", ista = "stream"
27) Heraclea Minoa in Sicily Minoa < Minuwa
28) Cortona
29) Abano Terme Ab = "water" see also Abana, Kastamonu & Abana River (in Syria!)
30) Elymians from that article: The precise origins of the Elymians are unknown, though it has been suggested (based on recent archeological finds) that they may have been migrants from Anatolia to Sicily. /ela = "strait", uma = "people"
other names: Otranto < Hydruntum, Taranto < Tarentum < Taras, Nora, Italy, Tyrsenians, Bergamo < Bergomum, Pesaro < Peisaura, Pisa? Böri (talk) 09:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
also
Adria = Atria = Hatria from that article: The first settlements on the area are of Venetic origin, on the 12-9th century BC; at that time the mainstream of the Po, the Adria channel, flowed into the sea by this area.
& Adriatic Sea Böri (talk) 13:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Made up etymologies: Yet another attempt at undermining the legitimacy of the Greek language in Anatolia (it’s pre-Greek “pelasgian” adstratum and PIE heritage combined) by none other than a nationalistic rant. A whimsical, non-peer reviewed and completely bogus attempt, pulled out of the preverbial abyss (is this perchance a Turkish word (sic) from a-buz), though not convincing to linguists at all. So Luwian has “mis”, “dite” and “ada/da” as all meaning goddess? I though the Albanians claimed “dite” to mean “day” and “afer” meaning next to… a better folk etymology given Aphrodite being equated with Venus, aka morning star. Yet even this etymology with better credibility is proven wrong, given Albanian inscriptions, which only started to be produced in the 15thC A.D. and it being a neologism and quite an anachronistic phrase... I don’t think it actually is grammatically correct either in Albanian, given Venus’ name is completely different in Albanian’s linguistic history (read here “venusin”). The goddess’ name is better linked to “aphros” = foam and “diaita” = to live; that’s one theory but better than the one suggested. The reason here is that it was attested in the writings of the ancients, but these other attempts here are mere conjecture of forms that are not even Luwian. The attempts here are nothing more than that. I’ve not seen any inscription or testimony to the contrary that denies Demeter her Hellenic linguistic heritage, especially any coming from the Archaeological recordings of the Hittite (sic) Luwian language. Damater is inherently Greek given that Doric had “da” for “ge/gaia” and “mater” for mother, - a befitting name for a goddess of the earth (given that she was the goddess of the fruits of the earth). As for Danae her name is from the word to scorch/parch/dry (see Liddell and Scott for “to danos”), given that they were a tanned people, befitting description I would say (read here as, the sun-scorched woman actually). You may notice that both “danos” and “da” are etymologically linked to mean the scorched earth (as by the beating sun of summer). As for Artemis, well her name is well suited to the verb “arteomai” = I am prepared, yet another befitting name for the “huntress, ever ready and swift-footed”. As for Apollo, I think the section in the wiki article is sufficient in it’s etymological investigation. I tend to agree though, that the well established link between Luwian Appaliunas (father lion or father light (spurious translation, given the difficulty in compound constructs as these)) is a good one, but there are also equally valid ones in Greek for his name (see apellazo and apollumi for eg.). As for Hestia (that name clearly means “hearth” in Greek, the Luwian (sic) words determining her name, being made up here. Ad infinitum I can pick out all the ones that have been listed and give you the etymologies, but anyone with a knowledge of PIE linguistics and ancient Greek would be able to ascertain those meanings quite clearly. My favourite folk etymology is kassandra = fr. Folk-etymological Luwian (kas = temple and andra = priestess/nun). Laughable and quite simply a joke. Considering how Greek the compound is in form (“kekasmai” = to shine and “aner” = man, genitive “andros”; shining upon/amongst man/men), the name’s origin is undeniable. Note that “kass-“ is also applied to “Kassiopeia” (oh no it’s from Luwian (sic) “Kas” = temple, “op” (hop, hop) (fr. Turkish, the precursor of Luwian(?)) and the ending “-ia” = the temple place where people have a dance”, and ofcourse its Greek version being ignored (Shining eyes/face). (sarcasm has a place in this discussion, as I cannot believe we have to entertain such ludicrous claims or entreat with such people). And for goodness sakes, Aenaeas is masculine, what’s that got to do with yet another unattested form of “goddess and earth” in your distorted view of Luwian? Maybe you need to come back to “earth” (as per your etymology for this last name) and stop dreaming of something that is not there. Perhaps when you seriously study ancient Luwian texts, then and only then can you have authority to make claims such as you have here, otherwise refrain. Rad Adam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.250.254.142 (talk) 00:35, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Aenaeas is masculine, what’s that got to do with yet another unattested form of “goddess and earth” in your distorted view of Luwian?: Aineias / Aeneas was the son of Aphrodite! (They are not Greek names! Show the Greek roots then! I know Ancient Greek.) Böri (talk) 10:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
The fact that it's "Aineas" is proof enough, given the diphthong, "AI". Whether it was Greek in origin or not, it is so imbued in Greek that NO OTHER living or extinct language can lay claim to it. Actually "Aineas" has a root in the verb "Aineo" = "I speak in praise of" (Liddle and Scott 1889 ed. p.21). The word is also in the nominal sense "aine" = "praise". Actually the wikipedia article already states that vid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas
Please re-learn ancient Greek and its various dialects before making wild claims. Also, if you did know ancient Greek it would be evident but I very much doubt you know more than English or Turkish.
I know Ancient Greek very well. Aineias was not a Greek! (He was a Trojan hero)So his name was not a Greek name! Böri (talk) 07:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Aineas or Aineias (depending on which Greek you prefer, as you seem to hop from Attic to Epihoric or Epic/Ionic spellings) was a hero who was named aptly by the Mycenaean Greek bards of whom Homer had learned his poems from to make his final composition, is a Greek name applied by Greek bards to a hero (fictitious or otherwise). You are anachronistically applying what has never been attested... A Luwian inscription, tablet, epic poetry linking the name Aineas/Aineias with the tale of the Trojan war and to the Trojan hero. The point you are making is both unscholarly and ridiculous. The proof is in the writing i.e the Homeric epic on the Trojan War (the Iliad), whereby the traditions of the bards was to utilize names with meaning to help them remember character traits etc. The countless epithets attest to the meanings of most names in there that I can think of except for the name Priam which is potentially Luwian/Lydian. However, my Liddle and Scott dictionary (1889 ed.) has Priam's name coming from one of two words (either pro, with a generic term meaning roughly chief or king) or the verb "priamai" = to have a thing sold/purchased by ransom. The later etymology is actually contested by ancient lexicographers and the play on Priam's name is thus interwoven into the story of the Iliad - if you actually want to know he was called Podarces (yes a Greek name "gods forbid!") first and then "ransomed" by Heracles, he changed his name to Priam (the ransomed one). I do not doubt that there could exist a Luwian name as attested in the article of Priam coming from Priimuua = exceptionally courageous... but that the fact remains that there are two highly reliable sources of Priam's name in Greek which are far stronger arguments. This goes for the name Aineas too.
In addition to that, the name Hector is also Greek yet this was a Trojan prince, and the name means "holding fast" as a name to help the oral poets remember his character traits when fighting with a sword. Your argument that he was a Trojan hero therefore his name is not Greek is laughable and the point you make is non sequitur! The fact that both Luwian and Greek was/is IE, make the languages' shared history and vocabulary inextricably linked. Your country's policies imbue a culture of re-writing history to suit the people's needs and do away with anything remotely Greek. I find it appauling personally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.34.95 (talk) 12:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Hector is not a Greek name! (If it is a Greek name, then prove it!)You said it means:"holding fast", which Greek roots? & Before 1200 BC (= Trojan War was in 1184 BC), there were no Greeks in Anatolia (except Miletos/Milawanda). so Trojan names were not Greek names!(and it's not about my country's policies...& what about the policies of Greece? Ancient Greece, The Roman Empire & The Byzantine Empire, they say they were all Greeks! Is it true? This is a Pan-Hellenic view!) Böri (talk) 06:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The Greek root is "Hekt+or" (the 0 = omega), the root is ultimately from εχω (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".. You obviously don't speak Ancient Greek - given its sound rules and sandhi rules which are unlike your native altaic word roots that agglutinate, the Greek forms are inflectional and hence derivational. This is reference enough http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hector as it is scholarly accredited. Alternatively, you could view it on Perseus project. So please refrain from bogus etymologies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.11.186 (talk) 12:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
All of my etymologies are correct: http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm from the Thracian language: achel- ‘water (noun), water (adj.)’ [Lith. H Akele., Phryg. akala ‘water’]. /apa, aphus ‘water, river; a spring’ [Old-Pruss. ape ‘river’, apus ‘spring’, Old-Ind. ap- ‘water’]. / ars- ‘to flow; current, river’ [Old-Pruss. RN Arsio, Arse, Old-Ind. árs,ati ‘to flow’, Hitt. arš- ‘the same’]. /arta(s), arda(s) ‘current. river’ [Old-Ind. árdati ‘to flow’, Greek ardó ‘to bedew’]. / bria ‘town’ (Strab.; Steph. Byz. under the word of Messembria). Both authors state the word was Thracian. It is often found as a second component of Thracian settlement names, for example: Messembria, Poltymbria, Sélymbria, Skedabria, etc. The Thracian ‘bria’ is related to the Toch. A ri, B riye ‘town (a refuge on a hill)’ – from the IE *wrijá. The Thracian language was also an Indo-European language... So it had the same roots... Maybe they took some of these words from the Luwian language! Have you seen them? Böri (talk) 09:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
The etymologies you are quoting have nothing to do with Aineas or Hektor or ANY of the other names as per the Iliad or Odyssey for that matter. This page is NOT a source and DOES NOT claim the names of the Trojan heroes as coming from any of those etymologies. The point is moot as per Huon. End of discussion. You must now concede on the names of Aeneas and Hektor given my referenced source, as well as the source by Liddle and Scott. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.17.227 (talk) 12:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Duely noted. Hektor however is. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.217.68.94 (talk) 11:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Böri did not cite any references for his list of etymologies ("Etymologies of these names are the sources!" indeed), so there is really nothing to discuss. Böri, please stop wasting people's time. Feel free to cite scholarly references to back up your beliefs, but unless you can do that please refrain from editing Wikipedia talkpages.
Many Greek personal names have unknown etymologies. It has been fashionable to say any unknown etymology is "pre-Greek" or "Pelasgian", to the point where this is really just saying it unknown. In many of these cases, a credible Greek etymology has been found after all. In other cases, the etymology is genuinely unknown, and speculation is possible, but please make it referenced speculation.
Read the Aphrodite article for an example. Aphrodite is a good example of a name where all sorts of mutually exclusive non-Greek etymologies have been thrown around, even though a purely Greek etymology is possible without any problems. The solution is just to list the various suggestions, with references, roughly in order of their credibility. --dab (𒁳) 15:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
"Their language, Lycian, was an Indo-European language, one in the Luwian subgroup of Anatolian languages." (from Lycian language ) / I want to show this: hebeli- (a river) [IE *Hap- 'a river, water', Hittite ap- 'water'] (from: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/lyci.html) /The Luwians were the ancestors the Lycian people. Böri (talk) 12:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
This is fast-moving field and there have been some changes. The article was not too good to begin with so I am doing some rewrites. I will address the reference problem. It is such an unnecessarily huge list it will take a while to work through it. But, even if many are not going to be used, it still can serve as a bibliography.Dave (talk) 12:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
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@TheLateDentarthurdent: I suggest you use Template:Interlinear to format the interlinear gloss -- that will make it a lot clearer. I'm afraid that I don't know where to put the word breaks. Also, what does the vertical bar (|) mean in the gloss? --Macrakis (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
It looks like Template:Script/Anatolian Hieroglyphs is broken, leading to formatting issues in the Syntax section of the article. I suggest to remove the broken text. Alternatively, one could use to instead add the text as an image. Renerpho (talk) 22:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
https://www.winter-verlag.de/de/assets/download/in04501cee412818269abddcb57e0efcbdd/9783825379537/9783825379537.pdf https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/42051/chapter/355821079 100.15.117.34 (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Given that Cuneiform Luwian and Hieroglyphic Luwian were merely variants of the same language as convincingly argued in Mouton & Yakubovich (2021) Where did one speak luwili? Geographic and linguistic diversity of Luwian cuneiform texts, following Yakubovich (2010) Sociolinguistics of the Luvian Language, I propose that the page Hieroglyphic Luwian should be merged into the page Luwian language. Antiquistik (talk) 21:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
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